Coaching - Now I have no excuse!
Comments
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I've had about a month and a half now of (not really much) unstructured riding. I think I'm going to hit the turbo next week and start doing some threshold work. I'll test next week, but I think my FTP has probably dropped by at least 20 Watts, maybe even more.DaveyL wrote:Was probably at 310-320 W FTP at the peak of summer (based on a 90 min effort normalised at about 290 W
I'd say that's a very optimistic FTP estimate based on your 90 minute normalised power
More problems but still living....0 -
amaferanga wrote:DaveyL wrote:Was probably at 310-320 W FTP at the peak of summer (based on a 90 min effort normalised at about 290 W
I'd say that's a very optimistic FTP estimate based on your 90 minute normalised power
Depends whether it was maximal or not Le Blaireau (1)0 -
DaveyL wrote:amaferanga wrote:DaveyL wrote:Was probably at 310-320 W FTP at the peak of summer (based on a 90 min effort normalised at about 290 W
I'd say that's a very optimistic FTP estimate based on your 90 minute normalised power
Depends whether it was maximal or not
Well if the effort wasn't maximal then the NP will not valid for trying to estimate FTP from. You have to compare like with like. You are seeking to compare a submaximal effort with a maximal effort.0 -
amaferanga wrote:DaveyL wrote:Was probably at 310-320 W FTP at the peak of summer (based on a 90 min effort normalised at about 290 W
I'd say that's a very optimistic FTP estimate based on your 90 minute normalised power
I've done 316 watts NP for 100 minutes (before dropping my chain, leaving the break and sitting up...) My FTP I reckon is 320-325. So I'd agree with the pretty optomistic, of course everyone is different, maybe it's a valid estimate based on all the other historical data.
I've had six weeks of doing very little cycling as I begin my winter running ramp up, just doing 3-4 hours at most with a bit of threshold work. The indications arem my 5 minute power is probably down around 5%, but my threshold is right about where it's been all summer, today I did 35minutes in richmond park before the traffic finally got the better of me within 3watts of my best power for the time. And my NP from the group (or rather 2-up mostly so far as everyone else is currently sitting on) is pretty good (320-330 depending on the amount of traffic interuptions)
Now my running is a little more established I'll be re-introducing some more VO2max work and increasing the threshold again to hopefully have a good solid winter. Unlike everyone else on the thread it seems I have not and hopefully will not let any of my FTP go away over the winter - I intend to come out with at least 330w FTP.
Nap - I'm surprised you can do a Max 1 minute test within 10minutes of a max 5 minute test, you should utterly consume your Anaerobic Work Capacity in those 5 minutes which mean it would be nowhere near recovered 10minutes later (The Neuromuscular component alone takes minutes to resupply and that's just 5seconds worth!)
I'm also actually pretty impressed you can hit 90% of your 1 minute best within 5 minutes of doing a 1 minute best, I certainly couldn't come anywhere near that (I struggle to turn the pedals for 5 minutes!). So what that really suggests is you're not actually recovering enough to do that first effort at your max but are actually more compromised by the 5 minute effort.Jibbering Sports Stuff: http://jibbering.com/sports/0 -
doyler78 wrote:DaveyL wrote:amaferanga wrote:DaveyL wrote:Was probably at 310-320 W FTP at the peak of summer (based on a 90 min effort normalised at about 290 W
I'd say that's a very optimistic FTP estimate based on your 90 minute normalised power
Depends whether it was maximal or not
Well if the effort wasn't maximal then the NP will not valid for trying to estimate FTP from. You have to compare like with like. You are seeking to compare a submaximal effort with a maximal effort.
Of course it's valid for *estimating* FTP. The estimate just might not be that good... I am aware that any measure of FTP that isn't a one hour TT is an estimate to some extent. I reckoned I could have got about 10 W more out of the 90 min effort, so I think ~310 is probably not a bad ballpark figure for what FTP would have been.
Having said that, that ride was done at the start of June when my CTL was about 30. So that wasn't actually at my peak - I had reached about 50 TSS/day CTL by the end of August so I believe FTP would have been between 310 and 320 by then. I do need to do more testing though, as a general point...Le Blaireau (1)0 -
jibberjim wrote:
Nap - I'm surprised you can do a Max 1 minute test within 10minutes of a max 5 minute test, you should utterly consume your Anaerobic Work Capacity in those 5 minutes which mean it would be nowhere near recovered 10minutes later (The Neuromuscular component alone takes minutes to resupply and that's just 5seconds worth!)
I'm also actually pretty impressed you can hit 90% of your 1 minute best within 5 minutes of doing a 1 minute best, I certainly couldn't come anywhere near that (I struggle to turn the pedals for 5 minutes!). So what that really suggests is you're not actually recovering enough to do that first effort at your max but are actually more compromised by the 5 minute effort.
Just doing what my coach tells me!
Thinking about it though, this test will be repeated at certain intervals so there will be consistency between tests and improvements shown will still be valid...
Edit - Just checked it, my prev best 1 min max effort was 518w! Prev best 5 min was 361.0 -
BTW - I'd be surprised if your coach or nutritionist is recommending exercising on an empty stomach, esp for maximal efforts. Please let me (us?) know if they are and what the rationale is!"And the Lord said unto Cain, 'where is Abel thy brother?' And he said, 'I know not: I dropped him on the climb up to the motorway bridge'."
- eccolafilosofiadelpedale0 -
mclarent wrote:BTW - I'd be surprised if your coach or nutritionist is recommending exercising on an empty stomach, esp for maximal efforts. Please let me (us?) know if they are and what the rationale is!
Depends on the effort really. Most of your glycogin will be stored in your muscles from the day before anyway.
I exercise on an empty stomach all the time. You just run out of energy at some point if you have nothing in the stomach to extend the effort.
I'm sure it's not 'recommended' but you can certainly get away with it.0 -
mclarent wrote:BTW - I'd be surprised if your coach or nutritionist is recommending exercising on an empty stomach, esp for maximal efforts. Please let me (us?) know if they are and what the rationale is!
He doesn't necessarily recommend empty stomach for maximal efforts but as I wasn't able to fuel at least 2-3 hrs before personally I'm better leaving it or I'd just throw up and/or cramp... Which has happened in the past! YMMV. What works for me may be very wrong for someone else...
I start all my longer / endurance rides on empty though...
I ate about 6 hours before as I went to bed. Plenty glycogen stores in there really, and looking at my figures (best ever 5 min power by 2 watts and best ever one min power by 60 watts it actually seemed to be fine!0 -
Pokerface wrote:.......
I exercise on an empty stomach all the time. You just run out of energy at some point if you have nothing in the stomach to extend the effort.
I'm sure it's not 'recommended' but you can certainly get away with it.
It's pretty dispiriting though, I hate that "running out" feeling when all the power drops away and it's a grovel just to get home. I'd never plan to do that.--
"Because the cycling is pain. The cycling is soul crushing pain."0 -
I eat every three hours.
Therefore I would train no later than two hours after eating, otherwise, I'd be due to eat at the same time as starting a ride...
On that nutritionists advice I did try one endurance ride (4 hours), starting on empty and fuelling as I went, beginning after one hour...
Didn't work!... Finished the ride feeling like sh!t and took a good three days to feel normal again.
Depending on what my last meal/snack was, I may train just one hour after eating.
At work, where my time is alittle more restricted, I regularly eat directly before a turbo session!Start with a budget, finish with a mortgage!0 -
Everyone is different, the nutritionist did a plan personal to me...
I did my one and only sportive (bloody hilly 76 miles) on empty, fuelling on the line and every ~50mins. Finished strong...0 -
Sounds a bit like "you can get away with it to me... I was going to rephrase this, but it's short enough to quote verbatim:When you wake in the morning your liver is approx 50% glycogen depleted due to having powered your nervous system as you slept. Endurance performance is related to liver glycogen content, so your endurance capacity is reduced after the overnight fast. This is no big deal if you are doing a light workout; you won't be limited even if you eat and drink nothing before starting it. But if your morning workout will be taxing, you will perform at a higher level by consuming some calories before you start
Src: "Racing Weight", M Fitzgerald, Velopress."And the Lord said unto Cain, 'where is Abel thy brother?' And he said, 'I know not: I dropped him on the climb up to the motorway bridge'."
- eccolafilosofiadelpedale0 -
I would say that most of the glycogen you will use during endurance exercise is likely to come from the muscles, the liver actually holds about 1/3 of glycogen in comparison to the muscles. During exercise the glycogen in the liver is more likely to be used to maintain good blood sugar levels, especially if no food is ingested during the exercise period.
To be honest if you are going to do a really taxing session, and you do not have time to eat something and get it digested before the session, I wouldn't eat anything, as NapD says, you are likely to bring it back up.
Anyhow NapD said he had a gel before the session, probably not enough in terms of calories, but a quick and easy way to get some carbs in.0 -
If I ate an hour beforehand then I'd throw/cramp. I'd rather run the risk of losing a few watts (which I don't think I did)... I had a gel after 30 mins (warm up was 45 mins), on reflection it worked for me.
In the great scheme of things, the body can store over 2000Kcal and this entire workout was 781... there was only 7 mins 30 secs of real effort!0 -
mclarent wrote:Sounds a bit like "you can get away with it to me... I was going to rephrase this, but it's short enough to quote verbatim:When you wake in the morning your liver is approx 50% glycogen depleted due to having powered your nervous system as you slept. Endurance performance is related to liver glycogen content, so your endurance capacity is reduced after the overnight fast. This is no big deal if you are doing a light workout; you won't be limited even if you eat and drink nothing before starting it. But if your morning workout will be taxing, you will perform at a higher level by consuming some calories before you start
Src: "Racing Weight", M Fitzgerald, Velopress.
50% depleted? Can that be right?
If you have 2000-2500 kcal stored in glycogen, then that means you've burned ~1000 kcal while sleeping. If the average male has a *resting* metabolic rate of ~1700-1800 kcal, then in 8 hrs of sleep you would only expect to burn ~800 kcal. A lot of that will come from fat metaolism as well, surely, although obviously the brain needs glycogen. Can there really be that much brain activity to drain 1000 kcal of glycogen?
Edit: OK, the situation is complicated by the distinction between muscle vs liver glyocgen. Still, as pointed out above, the exercise is mainly fuelled by muscle glyocgen.Le Blaireau (1)0 -
Ooo I love a good debate!
I'm going to add a couple more points then shut up, cos this is clearly threadjacking(!) and OT
1 - agree with what sbezza, i've read 80% of glycogen is stored in muscles, which should not be depleted by sleep. However, as this Google Books Reference discusses, muscle glycogen contribution drops to near zero at 75% of V02 max (e.g. the high end stuff we were talking about), and the difference is made up by glucose in the blood, supplied by (as sbezza implies/says) the liver. If the liver supply of glycogen is down, it's ability to supply glucose is seriously impeded. The obvious way to prevent this is to replenish glycogen following waking, in whatever manner fits your schedule. The bottom line I take from that is that if you're not replacing liver glycogen after waking and you're going straight out to a hard training session, whilst you are starting at 100% muscle glycogen, when you start the high intensity work your liver will not be able to process enough blood glucose to maintain the intensity as much as you could/want.
2 - If you're testing yourself without fuelling properly, what you're testing is your ability to perform on inadequate fuel. Fine if that's what you want to test, but if you're aiming to discover what your potential peak performance is, it won't be as useful. In addition, any testing needs to be consistent across different testing sessions - unless you're always going to test in the same "depleted state", then the test results will be less useful in measuring progress.
Sorry for the threadjack, and please keep posting NapD - interesting reading and discussion kicked off! "And the Lord said unto Cain, 'where is Abel thy brother?' And he said, 'I know not: I dropped him on the climb up to the motorway bridge'."
- eccolafilosofiadelpedale0 -
mclarent wrote:Ooo I love a good debate!
I'm going to add a couple more points then shut up, cos this is clearly threadjacking(!) and OT
1 - agree with what sbezza, i've read 80% of glycogen is stored in muscles, which should not be depleted by sleep. However, as this Google Books Reference discusses, muscle glycogen contribution drops to near zero at 75% of V02 max (e.g. the high end stuff we were talking about), and the difference is made up by glucose in the blood, supplied by (as sbezza implies/says) the liver. If the liver supply of glycogen is down, it's ability to supply glucose is seriously impeded. The obvious way to prevent this is to replenish glycogen following waking, in whatever manner fits your schedule. The bottom line I take from that is that if you're not replacing liver glycogen after waking and you're going straight out to a hard training session, whilst you are starting at 100% muscle glycogen, when you start the high intensity work your liver will not be able to process enough blood glucose to maintain the intensity as much as you could/want.
2 - If you're testing yourself without fuelling properly, what you're testing is your ability to perform on inadequate fuel. Fine if that's what you want to test, but if you're aiming to discover what your potential peak performance is, it won't be as useful. In addition, any testing needs to be consistent across different testing sessions - unless you're always going to test in the same "depleted state", then the test results will be less useful in measuring progress.
Sorry for the threadjack, and please keep posting NapD - interesting reading and discussion kicked off!
As I said though, only 7.5 mins of hard effort, and I'd had a gel 15 mins before the 1st effort. Enough there for what I was doing. I would rather have tested after eating my normal breakfast 3hrs before so I had to make do with what I had...
My nutritionist is proven at the highest level and I have every faith in him!0 -
mclarent wrote:Ooo I love a good debate!
I'm going to add a couple more points then shut up, cos this is clearly threadjacking(!) and OT
1 - agree with what sbezza, i've read 80% of glycogen is stored in muscles, which should not be depleted by sleep. However, as this Google Books Reference discusses, muscle glycogen contribution drops to near zero at 75% of V02 max (e.g. the high end stuff we were talking about), and the difference is made up by glucose in the blood, supplied by (as sbezza implies/says) the liver. If the liver supply of glycogen is down, it's ability to supply glucose is seriously impeded. The obvious way to prevent this is to replenish glycogen following waking, in whatever manner fits your schedule. The bottom line I take from that is that if you're not replacing liver glycogen after waking and you're going straight out to a hard training session, whilst you are starting at 100% muscle glycogen, when you start the high intensity work your liver will not be able to process enough blood glucose to maintain the intensity as much as you could/want.
2 - If you're testing yourself without fuelling properly, what you're testing is your ability to perform on inadequate fuel. Fine if that's what you want to test, but if you're aiming to discover what your potential peak performance is, it won't be as useful. In addition, any testing needs to be consistent across different testing sessions - unless you're always going to test in the same "depleted state", then the test results will be less useful in measuring progress.
Sorry for the threadjack, and please keep posting NapD - interesting reading and discussion kicked off!
Don't think that really contradicts what NapD said, at the end depends what kind of carbs you eat before hand. If you get complex carbs (which is usually the type of food you're supposed to eat 2-3 hours before work out as this gives you the "long-run" fuel), it will be stored in the muscles and will not, as you wrote, contribute to your max effort. While if you eat simple carbs ie sugar as NapD did with the gel, you get your blood sugar quite quickly up and have fuel for max efforts.
this are at least my 2 cents :-)0 -
2 x 10 min max tests tonight...0
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2 x 10s went well, was VERY close to throwing up near the end of the 2nd. After I finished the 1st, which was my best ever 10min on the turbo, I thought there was no way I'd get close on the 2nd one but I was only 6 watts down. I was rather surprised and very pleased. HR ended up the same on bothe too.
One thing I have been working on in the last couple of months of JRA is my pedalling, trying to become as smooth and circular as possible. When doing these tests and indeed TTs in the past I have always mashed my way through them at about 80rpm, last night cadence was 93 average.
Up and on the turbo at 4.30 this morning to spin the legs out...
Taking a lot of positives from this week, must have been the steak I had on Saturday.0 -
NapoleonD wrote:2 x 10s went well, was VERY close to throwing up near the end of the 2nd. After I finished the 1st, which was my best ever 10min on the turbo, I thought there was no way I'd get close on the 2nd one but I was only 6 watts down. I was rather surprised and very pleased. HR ended up the same on bothe too.
One thing I have been working on in the last couple of months of JRA is my pedalling, trying to become as smooth and circular as possible. When doing these tests and indeed TTs in the past I have always mashed my way through them at about 80rpm, last night cadence was 93 average.
Up and on the turbo at 4.30 this morning to spin the legs out...
Taking a lot of positives from this week, must have been the steak I had on Saturday.
How comparable are the tests done on the turbo vs done on the road? Have you ever done a 2 x 10min on the turbo and then on the road within a week or so to see whether they match up?
Share your vies on cadence, from my point of view its the most important technique component to improve performance and your knees will be grateful as well :-)0 -
I'm still looking forwards to ripping your legs off next season0
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Virtually every cyclist I know is faster than me, so I'm used to it! There's not a lot of pride to be taken from 'Ripping the legs off' an overweight asthmatic with a duff leg who's only been training 18 months...
bcss - I reckon my power is about 5-10% better on the road.0 -
NapoleonD wrote:There's not a lot of pride to be taken from 'Ripping the legs off' an overweight asthmatic with a duff leg who's only been training 18 months....
Some people need to get their pride however they can
Another years training you'll be ripping the legs off of more and more people.Jibbering Sports Stuff: http://jibbering.com/sports/0 -
jibberjim wrote:NapoleonD wrote:There's not a lot of pride to be taken from 'Ripping the legs off' an overweight asthmatic with a duff leg who's only been training 18 months....
Some people need to get their pride however they can
Another years training you'll be ripping the legs off of more and more people.
Good, Pokerface and I could do with a spare leg or two!0 -
One legged man in an arse-kicking competition always falls down. :oops:0
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I cant get anywhere near my outdoor power on the turbo. its about 50watts lower!0
. I bet it felt alot longer than that though 
