Big fat winter power training thread
Comments
-
Rokkala wrote:amaferanga wrote:I'd be interested to know what type of power measurement and protocol the folk with the big numbers and the big gains are using (no accusations - just curious
) .
If they're using PowerTaps/SRMs then I hope they're not in any of the races I enter this year
On the turbo which measures power for me, same tyre pressure, same time warming up on it beforehand. I check the watts produced at certain cadences in certain gears to make sure it is still the same.
15min warm-up, 5 min blow-out, 10 min spinning, then 20min threshold.
I was expecting an improvement since November, as I didn't have much endurance from longer rides in me last year and this was my first winter of cycling, been on the bike 4 or 5 times a week since end of Jan and feel a lot stronger than i did last year because I have some stamina now.
First race a week on Saturday (if i get on the start list), so i'll see how i go. I think other people are better/more prepared at suffering than i am though, so not expecting much.
Powertap is on order too(shortage in the UK for last month or so now), so hopefully it will translate to that when I get it too!
I don't think checking the Watts for a given speed will tell you much as the power will be inferred from the speed. Its not an Elite fluid chrono digital is it?More problems but still living....0 -
amaferanga wrote:Rokkala wrote:amaferanga wrote:I'd be interested to know what type of power measurement and protocol the folk with the big numbers and the big gains are using (no accusations - just curious) .
If they're using PowerTaps/SRMs then I hope they're not in any of the races I enter this year
On the turbo which measures power for me, same tyre pressure, same time warming up on it beforehand. I check the watts produced at certain cadences in certain gears to make sure it is still the same.
15min warm-up, 5 min blow-out, 10 min spinning, then 20min threshold.
I was expecting an improvement since November, as I didn't have much endurance from longer rides in me last year and this was my first winter of cycling, been on the bike 4 or 5 times a week since end of Jan and feel a lot stronger than i did last year because I have some stamina now.
First race a week on Saturday (if i get on the start list), so i'll see how i go. I think other people are better/more prepared at suffering than i am though, so not expecting much.
Powertap is on order too(shortage in the UK for last month or so now), so hopefully it will translate to that when I get it too!
I don't think checking the Watts for a given speed will tell you much as the power will be inferred from the speed. Its not an Elite fluid chrono digital is it?
The KK tells you to spin for 5 minutes to warm up the turbo then take the speed up to 20mph, stop pedalling and time the coast-down to 0. Says 13.4secs is exact calibration I just go with 13, adjusting the pressure of the roller on the tyre to get it right. Do this every monday when I set up the bike on the turbo."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
Alex_Simmons/RST --- Sep -- 280watts -- 78kg -- 3.6 w/kg
Oct -- 280watts -- 78kg -- 3.6 w/kg
Nov -- 300watts -- 78kg -- 3.8 w/kg
Amaferanga
March -- 280watts -- 68kg -- 4.1w/kg
Bhima
Oct -- 278watts -- 58kg -- 4.8 w/kg
Feb -- 286watts -- 62kg -- 4.6 w/kg
Mar -- 292watts -- 62kg -- 4.7 w/kg
Bronzie
Dec -- 260watts -- 74kg -- 3.5 w/kg
Jan -- 250watts -- 75kg -- 3.3 w/kg
Disgruntledgoat
Nov -- 332watts -- 76kg -- 4.4 w/kg
Dec -- 338watts -- 74kg -- 4.5 w/kg
Feb -- 346watts -- 74kg -- 4.67 w/kg
Jeff Jones
Oct -- 325watts -- 69kg -- 4.7 w/kg
Feb -- 315watts? -- 70kg -- 4.5 w/kg
Mar -- 334watts -- 69kg -- 4.85 w/kg
JibberJim
Nov -- 295watts -- 75kg -- 3.9 w/kg
Dec -- 300watts -- 75kg -- 4.0 w/kg
Feb -- 310watts -- 74kg -- 4.2 w/kg
Mar -- 320watts -- 75kg -- 4.3 w/kg
NapD
Sep -- 220watts -- 96kg -- 2.3 w/kg
Nov -- 277watts -- 89kg -- 3.1 w/kg
Mar --- 280watts--91kg -- 3.1w/kg
Phil S
Oct -- 305watts -- 71kg -- 4.3 w/kg
Rokkala
Nov -- 312watts -- 73kg -- 4.3 w/kg
Mar -- 341watts -- 73kg -- 4.67 w/kg
slunker
Feb -- 300watts -- 72kg -- 4.16 w/kg
Mar -- 310watts -- 71kg -- 4.36 w/kg
NickD
Jan -- 235watts -- 73kg -- 3.2 w/kg
Feb -- 255watts -- 73kg -- 3.5 w/kg
hopper1
Feb -- 220watts -- 76kg -- 2.89 w/kg
mididoctors
Feb -- 223Watts -- 83kg -- 2.68 w/kg
322 average for 55 minutes around RP, so the numbers shown whilst in Lanzarote translated very well now I'm back. 340watts Normalized, but I don't take that from around the park. Happy with the progress, but need to get a bit more, and lose the weight again.Jibbering Sports Stuff: http://jibbering.com/sports/0 -
Powertap for me.
Have been ill this week so I can't see any more improvements happening in March
Jeff Jones
Product manager, Sports0 -
Jeff Jones wrote:Powertap for me.
Have been ill this week so I can't see any more improvements happening in March
I'm not playing anymore, in a block of 4 races in 4 weekends now, with my first 25 of hte year as the last one, and I'm avoiding all comparative data as part of my attempts not to worry myself out of contention before i even turn up."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
amaferanga wrote:Rokkala wrote:amaferanga wrote:I'd be interested to know what type of power measurement and protocol the folk with the big numbers and the big gains are using (no accusations - just curious) .
If they're using PowerTaps/SRMs then I hope they're not in any of the races I enter this year
On the turbo which measures power for me, same tyre pressure, same time warming up on it beforehand. I check the watts produced at certain cadences in certain gears to make sure it is still the same.
15min warm-up, 5 min blow-out, 10 min spinning, then 20min threshold.
I was expecting an improvement since November, as I didn't have much endurance from longer rides in me last year and this was my first winter of cycling, been on the bike 4 or 5 times a week since end of Jan and feel a lot stronger than i did last year because I have some stamina now.
First race a week on Saturday (if i get on the start list), so i'll see how i go. I think other people are better/more prepared at suffering than i am though, so not expecting much.
Powertap is on order too(shortage in the UK for last month or so now), so hopefully it will translate to that when I get it too!
I don't think checking the Watts for a given speed will tell you much as the power will be inferred from the speed. Its not an Elite fluid chrono digital is it?
Nah its not that. It's consistent anyway, thats the main thing as I can see the improvement. Powertap shall reveal all anyway, apparently distributors are getting them in on the 22nd, so should get my wheels not long after, fingers crossed.
Once i do, is it still better to do the test with the Powertap on turbo or out on the road?0 -
Hi Rokkala.
I've been playing with a borrowed powertap this week and comparing it to my turbo which 'measures' power (tacx flow).
I did a set of 3 minute intervals last night and they came out as follows
1 - Tacx 320w Powertap 285w
2 - Tacx 330w Powertap 299w
3 - Tacx 340w Powertap 316w
4 - Tacx 340w Powertap 322w
5 - Tacx 340w Powertap 314w
6 - Tacx 350w Powertap 334w
7 (I minute only) - Tacx 420w Powertap 395
Also the Tacx readout varied quite a lot with cadence - I tried to keep within the 90-100rpm range, but even in there there was a difference at the same perceived effort.
Measuring power from wheel speed also doesn't take account any acceleration efforts, or notice when you slacken off. The tacx routinely showed 500+ when I'm spinning up to start an effort, while even a momentary easing off dropped the power 50w. The tacx noticed none of that...
I've got the first local 10 of the season this Sunday so I'm gonna leave the disc wheel at home and race with the powertap - just so I can get some reliable numbers under race conditions.
Cheers, Andy0 -
Oh yeah - and I'd imagined that spinning away in a big gear on the rollers would be worth close to 300w.... 33mph only got me 250w....0
-
andrewgturnbull wrote:Measuring power from wheel speed also doesn't take account any acceleration efforts, or notice when you slacken off. The tacx routinely showed 500+ when I'm spinning up to start an effort, while even a momentary easing off dropped the power 50w. The tacx noticed none of that...
I take it one of those is supposed to say powertap :?
In either case the issue could easily be explained by averaging ie one applied greater smoothing than the other therefore the impact of very short intense increases or loss of power wouldn't be so noticeable.
It isn't unusual for power estimators to apply severe averaging simply because they are more susceptible to spikes from outside influences and the averaging tries to ensure the user doesn't see these. Unfortunately this means that peak power will always be underestimated bar - really large spikes.
But that is just guesswork without knowing the setup of either the powertap cervo or how the tacx smooths data.0 -
andrewgturnbull wrote:Hi Rokkala.
I've been playing with a borrowed powertap this week and comparing it to my turbo which 'measures' power (tacx flow).
I did a set of 3 minute intervals last night and they came out as follows
1 - Tacx 320w Powertap 285w
2 - Tacx 330w Powertap 299w
3 - Tacx 340w Powertap 316w
4 - Tacx 340w Powertap 322w
5 - Tacx 340w Powertap 314w
6 - Tacx 350w Powertap 334w
7 (I minute only) - Tacx 420w Powertap 395
Also the Tacx readout varied quite a lot with cadence - I tried to keep within the 90-100rpm range, but even in there there was a difference at the same perceived effort.
Measuring power from wheel speed also doesn't take account any acceleration efforts, or notice when you slacken off. The tacx routinely showed 500+ when I'm spinning up to start an effort, while even a momentary easing off dropped the power 50w. The tacx noticed none of that...
I've got the first local 10 of the season this Sunday so I'm gonna leave the disc wheel at home and race with the powertap - just so I can get some reliable numbers under race conditions.
Cheers, Andy
Interesting. Will try that when i get mine delivered too and see what its like. It's a Tacx Cycleforce i'm using. Wouldn't be surprised if it's over-reporting the watts, as based on my W/Kg, it's far above Cat 3/4. And i doubt i'll find my first race anything but extremely hard 0 -
Just come off a 40min session on a Tacx Flow turbo with a Powertap, did a warm up and 4 x3min intervals @ 345-350w av on the PT but the Flow was reading between 420-435w.
I've said before that this turbo is about 5 years old with over 5000 miles on but the numbers are consistently out by the same amount so as long as you know that you an manage the high numbers. (The cables and head attachment on last legs so not sure what to do when it finally gives in as PT is rented at moment)0 -
lloydy75 wrote:Just come off a 40min session on a Tacx Flow turbo with a Powertap, did a warm up and 4 x3min intervals @ 345-350w av on the PT but the Flow was reading between 420-435w.
I've said before that this turbo is about 5 years old with over 5000 miles on but the numbers are consistently out by the same amount so as long as you know that you an manage the high numbers. (The cables and head attachment on last legs so not sure what to do when it finally gives in as PT is rented at moment)
That sounds like the kind of turbo I need to buy to feel better about my power numbers! :oops:0 -
Since FTP can be based on different things, is everyone actually doing 1 hour for the FTP in this thread?
I think I'd be basing mine off a 12 mile on the turbo as on the trainer we don't go by time, we go by miles which is usually 12 mile, won't be above 15 for a long time.
I did 32 mins at 253W today which is a pb, I don't know exact stuff cause I lost my data sheet on the way back somewhere. But I'm not trusting the turbo as much any more, for all I know it could have being higher, deffo not lower judging by my effort and compared to previous rides.
I notice that I've probably improved by around 50w since the end of jan.0 -
freehub wrote:Since FTP can be based on different things, is everyone actually doing 1 hour for the FTP in this thread?
Almost, as my main test I do 3 laps of Richmond Park, which take me 54+ minutes, and round it down to the nearest 5. It's not a most appropriate test if you really want to find your "FTP" by many definitions, but it's the number I want to track.freehub wrote:I notice that I've probably improved by around 50w since the end of jan.
Improvement is what really matters, rather than absolute values.Jibbering Sports Stuff: http://jibbering.com/sports/0 -
I am somewhat skeptical of the figures quoted for peoples FTP. i think the bulk of those on this thread are probably about right in there ability to calibrate and calculate but I have run into a few unlikely stats from rides I have been on via someone else' s Power Tap..
the most notable
the following doesn't hold true...was on a ride last week of some 80km with a rider 20 years my junior who claimed his FTP was 304W his weight was a claimed 78kg vs my now 82kg
I turned him over (few ruses involved granted) on what could at best be charitably described as a rolling route.. ok I'm fitter than I was when i first posted but still!
moreover..and this for me says it all.. he claimed that he averaged over 200 watts for the ride... but get this the average speed was 26.4km/h...
I don't believe his FTP and don't believe the speed vs his power output average unless I have grossly under estimated the difficulty of this ride.. a bog standard variation of Essex's lumps and ramps of no particular distinction...
EDIT when fit I can still roll round this route at over 30kph"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
You should ask to see the .tcx/powertap file from your friend's ftp test.More problems but still living....0
-
mididoctors wrote:moreover..and this for me says it all.. he claimed that he averaged over 200 watts for the ride... but get this the average speed was 26.4km/h...
Well - I can't speak for anything else, but I regularly do a 50 mile ride on Sundays which is mostly flat with a some climbing built in. ANd I average around 16-17MPH (around the 26kph you quoted).
And my average wattage for the ride is usually around 200w - and that is including the downhill sections where I'm coasting.
So, personally - I don't see any problem with his claim. Whether his FTP is over 300 or not is a different story.
But remember - my FTP might be 300 - meaning I can maintain a high average power (it isn't and I can't) but would still be unable to ride away from someone who can use more high-end power easily - but suffers over a longer distance.
And lastly - most people's internet figures and real-life figures are a little different. 8)0 -
amaferanga wrote:You should ask to see the .tcx/powertap file from your friend's ftp test.
know him by face, meet him on the road... figs for the ride alone seem whack to me(forget the idea he may be BS his FTP)"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
mididoctors wrote:amaferanga wrote:You should ask to see the .tcx/powertap file from your friend's ftp test.
know him by face, meet him on the road... figs for the ride alone seem whack to me(forget the idea he may be BS his FTP)
He's not a young lad from around Manchester way is he?
"A cyclist has nothing to lose but his chain"
PTP Runner Up 20150 -
Pokerface wrote:mididoctors wrote:moreover..and this for me says it all.. he claimed that he averaged over 200 watts for the ride... but get this the average speed was 26.4km/h...
Well - I can't speak for anything else, but I regularly do a 50 mile ride on Sundays which is mostly flat with a some climbing built in. ANd I average around 16-17MPH (around the 26kph you quoted).
And my average wattage for the ride is usually around 200w - and that is including the downhill sections where I'm coasting.
So, personally - I don't see any problem with his claim. Whether his FTP is over 300 or not is a different story.
interesting so the ride figs could be genuine?
that surprises me the fact we have coasting sections was why i found it hard to believe the speed vs power figs... average 200 suggested a higher speed to my mind
yeah i already discounted the FTP as bravado "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
You're never going to know then are you. Maybe he doesn't have much stamina/endurance ability?
Surprised by the number of people who seem to almost be offended by others figures.0 -
ShockedSoShocked wrote:
He's not a young lad from around Manchester way is he?
we saw him but couldn't keep up as he was averaging 43kph on a 2 lap version of our ride"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
Rokkala wrote:You're never going to know then are you. Maybe he doesn't have much stamina/endurance ability?
Surprised by the number of people who seem to almost be offended by others figures.
80k ride? its not exactly Paris Tours is it
I'm not so much offended as baffled
I thought the point of all this power training was if you can hold x watts for 20 mins(choose your time interval bias here) you can hold Xwatts minus a bit for hours
and its not like I'm fit at the mo either?
I will admitt I'm old school more is more type of guy but in admitting that i acknowledge i could well be (and probably am) wrong..
I never could get by on a little.."If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
mididoctors wrote:Rokkala wrote:You're never going to know then are you. Maybe he doesn't have much stamina/endurance ability?
Surprised by the number of people who seem to almost be offended by others figures.
80k ride? its not exactly Paris Tours is it
I'm not so much offended as baffled
I thought the point of all this power training was if you can hold x watts for 20 mins(choose your time interval bias here) you can hold Xwatts minus a bit for hours
and its not like I'm fit at the mo either?
I will admitt I'm old school more is more type of guy but in admitting that i acknowledge i could well be (and probably am) wrong..
I never could get by on a little..
Is it not? How enlightening, thankyou
Have to remember that not everybody is going to have the same perspective of distances as yourself. Will be people out there who can do a blinding 10mile TT or whatever but don't have a sufficient base/stamina/endurance to keep them at that kind of level over longer distances, due to time constraints on training or whatever.0 -
mididoctors wrote:I thought the point of all this power training was if you can hold x watts for 20 mins(choose your time interval bias here) you can hold Xwatts minus a bit for hours
To a certain degree - you are correct.
Some people can maintain 90-95% of their FTP for several hours on end, while others will ride more comfortably at 80-85% for several hours.
Most people DON'T try and ride at 95% FTP for extended periods of time, unless they are racing. It's hard work and probably painful!
As per the 200w figure - it's not all that difficult to maintain that wattage for extended periods of time, even with downhill/coasting, etc.
May also depend on how his powermeter measures/displays 0w efforts.
Mine will stop averaging if I'm coasting and not pedalling -but only on the display. When I download the data it gives the correct figure with the 0w portions averaged in.
So it might read 220w on screen (based on the amount of time I was pedalling) but when downloaded gives the correct figure of 200w for the entire ride time.0 -
Pokerface wrote:mididoctors wrote:I thought the point of all this power training was if you can hold x watts for 20 mins(choose your time interval bias here) you can hold Xwatts minus a bit for hours
To a certain degree - you are correct.
Some people can maintain 90-95% of their FTP for several hours on end, while others will ride more comfortably at 80-85% for several hours.
Most people DON'T try and ride at 95% FTP for extended periods of time, unless they are racing. It's hard work and probably painful!
As per the 200w figure - it's not all that difficult to maintain that wattage for extended periods of time, even with downhill/coasting, etc.
May also depend on how his powermeter measures/displays 0w efforts.
Mine will stop averaging if I'm coasting and not pedalling -but only on the display. When I download the data it gives the correct figure with the 0w portions averaged in.
So it might read 220w on screen (based on the amount of time I was pedalling) but when downloaded gives the correct figure of 200w for the entire ride time.
I take it you know that you can change this if its a powertap so that it averages including zeros whilst still moving.
I've mine setup so that I include watts on speed and watts but not on cadence.0 -
Pokerface wrote:
May also depend on how his powermeter measures/displays 0w efforts..
I suspect this is the issue
so in effect yours and his power meter may not be a true average against the time of the ride just time spent pedaling
yes?
pretty fundamental difference"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
Rokkala wrote:
Is it not? How enlightening, thankyou
Have to remember that not everybody is going to have the same perspective of distances as yourself. Will be people out there who can do a blinding 10mile TT or whatever but don't have a sufficient base/stamina/endurance to keep them at that kind of level over longer distances, due to time constraints on training or whatever.
true but then their 10mile TT time (a 20-30 min effort) is a function of sustained power and if you can do a good lick then it is suggested on this thread maintaining 80% of this effort is should be achievable for a few hours"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
So does FTP mean allot then? Cause tbh, I certaily don't ever get left behind and am usually in the top few/ 1st on hills and all that and my FTP is no where near most peoples.0
