Thread To Tell Everyone What Fettling You've Just Done

Kieran_Burns

...and it's out. With the help of a friend basically sitting on the bike, a huge hammer, a massive drill bit, a BB30 removal tool and a relaxed attitude to tw*tting the bike; the rest of the Praxis kit finally parted company with the BB shell.

Now to thoroughly clean everything and reassemble... and I must remember to post pictures of what started all this: the middle ring with the missing teeth

itboffin

Why are you removing the Praxis kit?

Kieran_Burns

itboffin wrote:

Why are you removing the Praxis kit?

Refer back a few posts, this has been a saga. It started when I originally fitted it and put too much grease (copper slip) on the crank axle and kit. The axle span freely in the bearings without actually turning the bearings. This stayed like this for AGES until it stiffened up but by then the bearings had seized. I managed to loosen them but they were basically stuffed.

On top of that, when I originally fitted the kit I was slightly (cough) over-enthusiastic tightening it (kind of went past the physical stop you are meant to notice). Oh and I didn't apply enough copper slip to the outside of the kit where it meets the BB shell.

Basically an unholy cock up and probably what contributed to the middle ring dying.

itboffin

Hmmm expensive mistake I just hang mine on the wall and don't use it, pretty much lasts forever .........

kinioo

Arthur Scrimshaw wrote:

kinioo wrote:

GELERT Strider 2L Hydro Pack @ Millets

http://www.millets.co.uk/equipment/1265 ... -blue.html

err... wrong thread??

Yep - sorry...

tgotb

Fixing a puncture last night, discovered that I have worn my rear GP 4 Season right down to the canvas in 8 months flat. Swapped it for a slightly less-worn spare I had lying around, and replaced some very dodgy-sounding bearings.

Toying with replacing it with a Gatorskin; what's the worst that can happen?

ugo.santalucia

TGOTB wrote:

Fixing a puncture last night, discovered that I have worn my rear GP 4 Season right down to the canvas in 8 months flat. Swapped it for a slightly less-worn spare I had lying around, and replaced some very dodgy-sounding bearings.

Toying with replacing it with a Gatorskin; what's the worst that can happen?

Get a Tannus... the new compound is supposed to be even better than the one I reviewed... I should get a pair to test this friday

timothyw

ugo.santalucia wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

Fixing a puncture last night, discovered that I have worn my rear GP 4 Season right down to the canvas in 8 months flat. Swapped it for a slightly less-worn spare I had lying around, and replaced some very dodgy-sounding bearings.

Toying with replacing it with a Gatorskin; what's the worst that can happen?

Get a Tannus... the new compound is supposed to be even better than the one I reviewed... I should get a pair to test this friday

Are you going to start selling your wheels with Tannus pre-fitted?

tgotb

ugo.santalucia wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

Fixing a puncture last night, discovered that I have worn my rear GP 4 Season right down to the canvas in 8 months flat. Swapped it for a slightly less-worn spare I had lying around, and replaced some very dodgy-sounding bearings.

Toying with replacing it with a Gatorskin; what's the worst that can happen?

Get a Tannus... the new compound is supposed to be even better than the one I reviewed... I should get a pair to test this friday

I'm not sure that solves the problem. This tyre lasted 4-5,000 miles and cost about £30. From the figures in your review, I could probably expect to get an additional 20-30% life out of a Tannus, but at three times the cost. I've probably had 3 or 4 punctures over the life of this tyre, so the time taken to fix them isn't even enough to offset the expected time to fit a Tannus, let alone the time required to remove it again at the end of its life.

ugo.santalucia

TimothyW wrote:

Are you going to start selling your wheels with Tannus pre-fitted?

I don't sell wheels, let alone tyres...

ugo.santalucia

TGOTB wrote:

I'm not sure that solves the problem. This tyre lasted 4-5,000 miles and cost about £30. From the figures in your review, I could probably expect to get an additional 20-30% life out of a Tannus, but at three times the cost. I've probably had 3 or 4 punctures over the life of this tyre, so the time taken to fix them isn't even enough to offset the expected time to fit a Tannus, let alone the time required to remove it again at the end of its life.

Then don't... it was just a thought as you mentioned Gatorskin...
I think the Tannus are 100 for the pair, not each

tgotb

ugo.santalucia wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

I'm not sure that solves the problem. This tyre lasted 4-5,000 miles and cost about £30. From the figures in your review, I could probably expect to get an additional 20-30% life out of a Tannus, but at three times the cost. I've probably had 3 or 4 punctures over the life of this tyre, so the time taken to fix them isn't even enough to offset the expected time to fit a Tannus, let alone the time required to remove it again at the end of its life.

Then don't... it was just a thought as you mentioned Gatorskin...
I think the Tannus are 100 for the pair, not each

Gatorskin wasn't so much for the puncture resistance, as the rubber compound (hopefully) lasting longer whilst still being a reasonable tyre to ride; last time I tried them the only real issue was grip in the wet, and that's obviously far less of an issue on a rear tyre.

Something like a Schwalbe Marathon might last almost indefinitely, but no fun at all to ride!

ugo.santalucia

TGOTB wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

I'm not sure that solves the problem. This tyre lasted 4-5,000 miles and cost about £30. From the figures in your review, I could probably expect to get an additional 20-30% life out of a Tannus, but at three times the cost. I've probably had 3 or 4 punctures over the life of this tyre, so the time taken to fix them isn't even enough to offset the expected time to fit a Tannus, let alone the time required to remove it again at the end of its life.

Then don't... it was just a thought as you mentioned Gatorskin...
I think the Tannus are 100 for the pair, not each

Gatorskin wasn't so much for the puncture resistance, as the rubber compound (hopefully) lasting longer whilst still being a reasonable tyre to ride; last time I tried them the only real issue was grip in the wet, and that's obviously far less of an issue on a rear tyre.

Something like a Schwalbe Marathon might last almost indefinitely, but no fun at all to ride!

I used Gatorskins when I knew no better and they don't last longer than any other tyre in the Conti range. Road tyres that weigh 250 grams or thereabout are bound to wear fast. I never found them particularly punctureproof either. For commuting Randonneur PRO is my tyre of choice, although the desirable PRO version starts at 32... which is a 29 in real terms. The non PRO one might be cheap rubber, although I have not tried one

rower63

ugo.santalucia wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

I'm not sure that solves the problem. This tyre lasted 4-5,000 miles and cost about £30. From the figures in your review, I could probably expect to get an additional 20-30% life out of a Tannus, but at three times the cost. I've probably had 3 or 4 punctures over the life of this tyre, so the time taken to fix them isn't even enough to offset the expected time to fit a Tannus, let alone the time required to remove it again at the end of its life.

Then don't... it was just a thought as you mentioned Gatorskin...
I think the Tannus are 100 for the pair, not each

Gatorskin wasn't so much for the puncture resistance, as the rubber compound (hopefully) lasting longer whilst still being a reasonable tyre to ride; last time I tried them the only real issue was grip in the wet, and that's obviously far less of an issue on a rear tyre.

Something like a Schwalbe Marathon might last almost indefinitely, but no fun at all to ride!

I used Gatorskins when I knew no better and they don't last longer than any other tyre in the Conti range. Road tyres that weigh 250 grams or thereabout are bound to wear fast. I never found them particularly punctureproof either. For commuting Randonneur PRO is my tyre of choice, although the desirable PRO version starts at 32... which is a 29 in real terms. The non PRO one might be cheap rubber, although I have not tried one

I moved from Gatorskins to Michelin Pro 4 Endurance, and then still not happy after a mega-puncture-fest through open cuts to Schwalbe Durano Plus a few months ago, which appear to have a lot more rubber than either. Endurance were no better than Gators by my reckoning, but so far no punctures at all on the Schwalbes.

dhope

rower63 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

I'm not sure that solves the problem. This tyre lasted 4-5,000 miles and cost about £30. From the figures in your review, I could probably expect to get an additional 20-30% life out of a Tannus, but at three times the cost. I've probably had 3 or 4 punctures over the life of this tyre, so the time taken to fix them isn't even enough to offset the expected time to fit a Tannus, let alone the time required to remove it again at the end of its life.

Then don't... it was just a thought as you mentioned Gatorskin...
I think the Tannus are 100 for the pair, not each

Gatorskin wasn't so much for the puncture resistance, as the rubber compound (hopefully) lasting longer whilst still being a reasonable tyre to ride; last time I tried them the only real issue was grip in the wet, and that's obviously far less of an issue on a rear tyre.

Something like a Schwalbe Marathon might last almost indefinitely, but no fun at all to ride!

I used Gatorskins when I knew no better and they don't last longer than any other tyre in the Conti range. Road tyres that weigh 250 grams or thereabout are bound to wear fast. I never found them particularly punctureproof either. For commuting Randonneur PRO is my tyre of choice, although the desirable PRO version starts at 32... which is a 29 in real terms. The non PRO one might be cheap rubber, although I have not tried one

I moved from Gatorskins to Michelin Pro 4 Endurance, and then still not happy after a mega-puncture-fest through open cuts to Schwalbe Durano Plus a few months ago, which appear to have a lot more rubber than either. Endurance were no better than Gators by my reckoning, but so far no punctures at all on the Schwalbes.

+1 for Durano Plus, been very resistant for me and not as chunky as a Marathon Plus

ugo.santalucia

rower63 wrote:

I moved from Gatorskins to Michelin Pro 4 Endurance, and then still not happy after a mega-puncture-fest through open cuts to Schwalbe Durano Plus a few months ago, which appear to have a lot more rubber than either. Endurance were no better than Gators by my reckoning, but so far no punctures at all on the Schwalbes.

I have a more holistic view of road tyres as far as puncture resistance go. They all use the same mechanism, a strip of nylon/kevlar and they all have very similar puncture resistance. For one that swears on a model, you will find another one that says it's rubbish.
If you want something more effective, then you have to add layers. Things like Marathon plus and Randonneur work by fatiguing the sharp object... basically it gets sucked in and loses sharpness. You can then collect it as debris embedded in the tyre. It seems to work better than the strip of kevlar (which many touring tyres have anyway). Of course the extra rubber comes at a cost, in terms of weight.

tgotb

ugo.santalucia wrote:

rower63 wrote:

I moved from Gatorskins to Michelin Pro 4 Endurance, and then still not happy after a mega-puncture-fest through open cuts to Schwalbe Durano Plus a few months ago, which appear to have a lot more rubber than either. Endurance were no better than Gators by my reckoning, but so far no punctures at all on the Schwalbes.

I have a more holistic view of road tyres as far as puncture resistance go. They all use the same mechanism, a strip of nylon/kevlar and they all have very similar puncture resistance. For one that swears on a model, you will find another one that says it's rubbish.
If you want something more effective, then you have to add layers. Things like Marathon plus and Randonneur work by fatiguing the sharp object... basically it gets sucked in and loses sharpness. You can then collect it as debris embedded in the tyre. It seems to work better than the strip of kevlar (which many touring tyres have anyway). Of course the extra rubber comes at a cost, in terms of weight.

I think the actual rubber compound makes a difference too. A soft compound is more likely to allow objects to become embedded in the first place; anecdotal evidence also suggests that some tyres cut up a lot more easily than others, and those cuts provide an easy way for more objects to become embedded. The tradeoff here is that the softer compounds are most probably also the grippy ones.

My thinking here is that the Conti 4 Seasons seems to be a pretty good front tyre for my commute; plenty grippy enough, punctures infrequently, and current one is showing only minor wear after something approaching 7000 miles. On the rear I don't need so much grip, but it would be nice to have something with a harder-wearing compound that is at least as robust as the 4 Season it's replacing. Another 4 Season would do the job just fine, but the engineer in me wonders whether I can find something else that will be even better. At the moment it's sounding like I should give the Durano Plus a try...

rower63

ugo.santalucia wrote:

rower63 wrote:

I moved from Gatorskins to Michelin Pro 4 Endurance, and then still not happy after a mega-puncture-fest through open cuts to Schwalbe Durano Plus a few months ago, which appear to have a lot more rubber than either. Endurance were no better than Gators by my reckoning, but so far no punctures at all on the Schwalbes.

I have a more holistic view of road tyres as far as puncture resistance go. They all use the same mechanism, a strip of nylon/kevlar and they all have very similar puncture resistance. For one that swears on a model, you will find another one that says it's rubbish.
If you want something more effective, then you have to add layers. Things like Marathon plus and Randonneur work by fatiguing the sharp object... basically it gets sucked in and loses sharpness. You can then collect it as debris embedded in the tyre. It seems to work better than the strip of kevlar (which many touring tyres have anyway). Of course the extra rubber comes at a cost, in terms of weight.

My theory of puncture-prevention stems from the fact that most punctures occur from objects that have been in the tyre for a time, working their way in with repeated cycles. The best way to minimize actual puncture frequency is regularly to pick out the offending culprits before they complete the journey, which usually happens in the wet.
That said, I had a spate of straight-through-in-one-go punctures on my Pro4 Endurances mainly due to gaping open wounds from previous cuts and lots of very wet rides. So I abandoned them and looked for an alternative.
My observation so far with the Schwalbes is that they have a much thicker and softer coating of rubber than the others. I have several tyre-cuts to date but none of them are gaping - it seems the rubber coat is acting like a self-healing skin.
And when I do my (daily) picking-out of embedded shards, I find very few compared to the Gators and Michelins. So fingers crossed.

tgotb

One thing I don't understand is how a long, thin, pointy shard of something can end up sticking straight into the tyre. It clearly happens, we see it all the time, but how does it get there? Unless the PF goes out and balances them all in the road, pointy-end-up, they're presumably lying flat on the ground before we get to them...

ugo.santalucia

Possibly, but harder tyres have less grip, so you will have the other side of the coin, people moaning about poor grip... you can't win. A 250 grams tyre is a compromise to give you more speed, whichever way you want to look at it. It is totally inadequate for the roads of the capital, in the same way driving a Lamborghini would be, you can make do and of course Strava KoM help shift priorities

tgotb

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Possibly, but harder tyres have less grip, so you will have the other side of the coin, people moaning about poor grip... you can't win. A 250 grams tyre is a compromise to give you more speed, whichever way you want to look at it. It is totally inadequate for the roads of the capital, in the same way driving a Lamborghini would be, you can make do and of course Strava KoM help shift priorities

I've already said I'm happy to have less grip. Tyre choice is a tradeoff between a bunch of different factors, and for the rear tyre I'm happy to lose a bit of grip if it improves longevity. No real issue with puncture resistance, so long as it doesn't actually get worse.

veronese68

TGOTB has plenty of room for Randonneur Pros, well worth trying them, especially for the price they can be picked up.
As an aside a colleague said he was talking to another dad at a kids party and the guy reckons he gets a flat every other day commuting to Canary Wharf. Seems excessive even on the lightest and raciest tyres. Unfortunately the kids all kicked off before he managed to tell the guy he was on the wrong tyres.

MonkeyMonster

Veronese68 wrote:

Unfortunately the kids all kicked off before he managed to tell the guy he was on the wrong tyres.

The actuality of what occurred here will never be as good as the situation that occurred in my head upon reading that but thanks for the chuckle

vimfuego

Just replaced the jockey wheels on the workhorse.

Based on the exchange above I feel obligated to mention tyre choice somehow........ erm

+1 on the Durano Plus - been running them all winter on the commuter and they do a fine job. Seen a few comments elsewhere bemoaning weight and "dead" feeling but they seem fine to me & handle well in all conditions + are pretty resistant to visits from the PF especially if you keep a regular check on bits of glass etc that get embedded. I agree with the above in that I reckon a lot of punctures are from stuff that gets picked up & works its way through the tyre if you don't spot it. Pulled a huge chunk of glass out of one yesterday (well, relatively speaking obviously) so the Durano had done its job really well. Switched to them having run Gators for years without any issues - just decided on a change when I got a gash in one of them.

ugo.santalucia

TGOTB wrote:

I've already said I'm happy to have less grip. Tyre choice is a tradeoff between a bunch of different factors, and for the rear tyre I'm happy to lose a bit of grip if it improves longevity. No real issue with puncture resistance, so long as it doesn't actually get worse.

They won't last longer. If you have clearance, get the Randonneur PRO, those will last longer, IME at least twice as long as the longest living road tyre

tgotb

ugo.santalucia wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

I've already said I'm happy to have less grip. Tyre choice is a tradeoff between a bunch of different factors, and for the rear tyre I'm happy to lose a bit of grip if it improves longevity. No real issue with puncture resistance, so long as it doesn't actually get worse.

They won't last longer. If you have clearance, get the Randonneur PRO, those will last longer, IME at least twice as long as the longest living road tyre

Why won't a harder rubber compound last longer? Your statement goes very much in the face of all the evidence I've seen.

A few examples from outside cycling:
Climbing shoes - very sticky rubber, not very resilient, soles tend to wear very quickly.
Walking boots, trainers etc - harder, less sticky compound. Far more resilient, much harder wearing.
Formula 1 tyres - soft, sticky, optimised for grip, last maybe 100 miles
Conventional road car tyres - hard, less sticky, last maybe 30,000 miles

ugo.santalucia

TGOTB wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

I've already said I'm happy to have less grip. Tyre choice is a tradeoff between a bunch of different factors, and for the rear tyre I'm happy to lose a bit of grip if it improves longevity. No real issue with puncture resistance, so long as it doesn't actually get worse.

They won't last longer. If you have clearance, get the Randonneur PRO, those will last longer, IME at least twice as long as the longest living road tyre

Why won't a harder rubber compound last longer? Your statement goes very much in the face of all the evidence I've seen.

It's not a statement... it is my evidence. As above, I used to run Gatorskin and other Conti tyres and I have no evidence of them lasting longer than a pair of Grand Prix or GP4000. They sqaure off just as quickly and after the first 1000 miles they puncture and cut just as happily... I just don't think they are high mileage tyres...

tgotb

Erm... You said, "They won't last longer." That sounds a lot like a statement to me...

My experience is of a huge difference in longevity between tyre compounds. I have some mud CX tubs which showed noticeable wear (on the rear) after one race with a short tarmac section - that's probably 10 miles, of which 9 was on soft grass. Same level of wear would probably take 500 miles of tarmac on a Conti 4 Season. GP4000s wear more quickly than 4 Seasons, though the difference is less pronounced.

Kieran_Burns

Could I just ask what the heck this has to do with fettling? If you want to discuss the pros and cons of tyre wear vs the hardness of the compound go start your own thread.

This one is for us ham-fisted idiots who spend our days looking for pinging bits in the cobweb infested corners of the garage.

ugo.santalucia

TGOTB wrote:

Erm... You said, "They won't last longer." That sounds a lot like a statement to me...

My experience is of a huge difference in longevity between tyre compounds. I have some mud CX tubs which showed noticeable wear (on the rear) after one race with a short tarmac section - that's probably 10 miles, of which 9 was on soft grass. Same level of wear would probably take 500 miles of tarmac on a Conti 4 Season. GP4000s wear more quickly than 4 Seasons, though the difference is less pronounced.

Then if you have the answer already, buy the Gatorskin. I was just reporting my experience, as requested