Ethnicity and the Cycling
Comments
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Well, this thread has certainly turned over a new leaf. Goodbye racial and social arguments, hello swimming memories!
I look white, because I am. East-Euro mongrel (Czech/Polish with dash of French). Sadly it's taken me until my mid 30's to realise I have the genes for time-trialling (my physique is very similar to Cancellara, minus the giant thighs, which I'm working on), but the motivation of a slug. And the money of a gnat. I can swim because my parents took me swimming loads when I was young (we lived over the road from a public pool).
I tried to ignore the mistaken borderline racist comments, but I have to take issue with this example:Bikequin
Do you really believe that with the exception of skin colour every race has the same distribution of height weight etc??
Yes. I not only believe it, but I have evidence for it.
Average height is pretty much the same across the world for all people, with diet proving to be the major determining factor.
Average weight is also predominantly governed by factors other than genetic makeup. But compare this chart for whites and this chart for blacks and see for yourself that differences are almost imperceptible. Divide people up by the colour of their skin and within each group you will find potential world champions for every sport. The fact we don't see them all compete is purely down to social and cultural reasons, not genetic ones.0 -
lost_in_thought wrote:Erm...
The thing I noticed most was the names..... :shock: :shock: :shock:JaTavious Warner, 17, Takeitha Warner, 13, JaMarcus Warner, 14, Litrelle Stewart, 18, Latevin Stewart, 15, and LaDarius Stewart, 17
Perhaps the problem is less ethnicity and more stupidity.
Also, I am amazed that people can't swim!
We don't like to get our hair wet, aparently (heard this one many years ago) and don't get me started on the names some of 'my' people bestow on our children :roll:
Coming back to the hair topic, that was a concern for African-Caribbeans as the chlorine did/does dry out our hair. Swimming caps were encouraged as well as using hair oil (hair moisturiser?) immediately after. Once the girls discovered hair straightening I can't imagine swimming would be seen as a worthwhile activity as the equipment need to restore the hair to it's pre-swimming appearance would have meant a mobile hairdressing shop being on standby
My swimming is poor due to severe short-sightedness necessitating glasses or contact lenses during waking hours. Swimming goggles weren't great after a few minutes and I always had problems breathing despite lessons/encouragement - diagnosed with asthma a few years ago solved the mystery, although if I'd tried breathing exercises for a period, that might have helped.
I paid for lessons for the niece I fostered a few years back but she dropped that activity once she discovered haircare, clothes and gossip :roll:0 -
PedalPedant wrote:Il Principe wrote:I f*cking hate swimming.
I f*cking love swimming
Which reminds me that now the kids are back at school the urine to water ratio at the local pool should be returning to a more acceptable level soon.
Time to dig out the speedos
PP 0 -
I used to complain about going to swimming lessons every week from when my parents started me (aged around 7/8 I think, but not really sure). I soon grew to tolerate it at least, if not love it. I took up windsurfing aged around 16 though, and being a strong swimmer really helped (obviously). If I hadn't learnt to swim when I was young, I'd have missed out on so much (teaching windsurfing in hot sunny windy countries during uni summer holidays for example), and my kids will be learning to swim from an extremely young age. Even though I rarely go to a swimming pool, I love being a strong swimmer and confident in the water.
Side anecdote, I had a friend at secondary school who couldn't swim or ride a bike. Man my life would be dull if that were the case.FCN - 10
Cannondale Bad Boy Solo with baggies.0 -
As with most things, this isn't all just down to race. Its more about class and other demographics. All my cousins back in Trinidad are strong swimmers.
Oops, just noticed how OT this has gotten
Grew up for the most part in Holland where swimming lessons were compulsory at my school. Also lots of time spent at the local lake and beach in the summer meant me and most in my peer group could all swim. 0 -
Back on topic, does anybody else get the CTC magazine? In the letters section in the last issue (I must have been pretty bored that day) a girl had written in to bemoan the lack of photos of ethnic cyclists in the magazine (she'd been through and counted).
Do people think it should be job of the CTC etc. to try and promote broader participation? Or can they only reflect what's going on?0 -
lost_in_thought wrote:Erm...
The thing I noticed most was the names..... :shock: :shock: :shock:JaTavious Warner, 17, Takeitha Warner, 13, JaMarcus Warner, 14, Litrelle Stewart, 18, Latevin Stewart, 15, and LaDarius Stewart, 17
Perhaps the problem is less ethnicity and more stupidity.
Also, I am amazed that people can't swim!
Oh for the love of... "Learning to swim, the great achievement of life". Some people are less fortunate than others, some aren't able to go to school, some haven't been taught to read and some haven't been taught to write. Not every place in the World is blessed with swimming pools and people willing to teach or people with time to learn how to swim.
I'm not going to argue the importance of learning how to swim. It's no longer a way of life more a recreation past time that some simply don't have the luxury of benefitting.
As for their names, what has it got to do with stupidity? What makes them stupid? Unusual, yes. Not to your liking, so what? You'd accept a persons name originating from France, Germany, Italy, Japan etc no matter how unusual, chances are you'd even not dismiss them as stupid. Then why not these?
Why do people expect traditional English names and nothing else.
:roll:Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
MrChuck wrote:Back on topic, does anybody else get the CTC magazine? In the letters section in the last issue (I must have been pretty bored that day) a girl had written in to bemoan the lack of photos of ethnic cyclists in the magazine (she'd been through and counted).
Do people think it should be job of the CTC etc. to try and promote broader participation? Or can they only reflect what's going on?
I use a hair product called 'baby love' its made by sta-sof-fro. Sometimes I use another product called 'Dark and Lovely'. On both there are pictures of people from a particular ethnicity. I know the poduct is for me.
My girlfriend uses something VO5, I've seen the advert and I know its not for me.
My Mum used to read a magazine called 'Ebony' on the front there were pictures of women with hair like hers. My girlfriend wouldn't feel like Ebony is for her, so its likely she wouldn't read it.
It could be argued that if CTC did promote a broader participation it would increase its readership, its impossible to truly reflect what is going on (what is going on by the way?) but I personally feel helping to encourage diversity or be ethnically diverse in a magazine* could do no harm.
*I hate those 50 or 100 best looking women in the World and Beyonce and Halle Berry are usually the only women in it that are of a different ethnicity. Think of the message that sends about what is beautiful.Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
DonDaddyD wrote:Why do people expect traditional English names and nothing else.
My dad wanted to name me Yevteshenko (after Yevgeny Yevtushenko, the Russian poet). I've always been somewhat disappointed that he didn't get his way. Instead, I'm named after a loaf of health-giving bread. =/0 -
DonDaddyD wrote:lost_in_thought wrote:Erm...
The thing I noticed most was the names..... :shock: :shock: :shock:JaTavious Warner, 17, Takeitha Warner, 13, JaMarcus Warner, 14, Litrelle Stewart, 18, Latevin Stewart, 15, and LaDarius Stewart, 17
Perhaps the problem is less ethnicity and more stupidity.
Also, I am amazed that people can't swim!
Oh for the love of... "Learning to swim, the great achievement of life". Some people are less fortunate than others, some aren't able to go to school, some haven't been taught to read and some haven't been taught to write. Not every place in the World is blessed with swimming pools and people willing to teach or people with time to learn how to swim.
I'm not going to argue the importance of learning how to swim. It's no longer a way of life more a recreation past time that some simply don't have the luxury of benefitting.
As for their names, what has it got to do with stupidity? What makes them stupid? Unusual, yes. Not to your liking, so what? You'd accept a persons name originating from France, Germany, Italy, Japan etc no matter how unusual, chances are you'd even not dismiss them as stupid. Then why not these?
Why do people expect traditional English names and nothing else.
:roll:
Bloody hell, I wondered when you'd see the bandwagon passing and choose to jump on.
Those names are utterly idiotic, but my comment about stupidity above was not actually related to the names, more to the quotes from the article. But back to the names - how do you expect a person to be taken seriously if they're called JaTavious, for goodness sake?
Anyway. Agent57, you're not allowed to row unless you can swim 100m. That might be the way you find yourself in a body of water unexpectedly!
And sure, you don't HAVE to learn how to swim, but I'm not seeing any compelling arguments against it. I wasn't given the option. And the 'lack of pools'? Well, I can't speak for the US, but here in the UK, there's definitely no lack.0 -
Cafewanda wrote:
We don't like to get our hair wet, aparently (heard this one many years ago) and don't get me started on the names some of 'my' people bestow on our children :roll:
Nothing wrong with the names. Since my last name isn't Kinte I think we should have the freedom to call our children whatever we want or does Muhammad Ali and Malcolm X's name changes mean nothing?Coming back to the hair topic, that was a concern for African-Caribbeans as the chlorine did/does dry out our hair. Swimming caps were encouraged as well as using hair oil (hair moisturiser?) immediately after. Once the girls discovered hair straightening I can't imagine swimming would be seen as a worthwhile activity as the equipment need to restore the hair to it's pre-swimming appearance would have meant a mobile hairdressing shop being on standby
What chlorine does to my hair is hugely annoying, I've got to wash it, dry it and then oil it all over again. If you have plaits, cane/corn rows this is doubly hard and for a girl who spent 3-6hrs having their hair relaxed or permed (which burns by the way) and spent £65+ to make it look 'European' its just a pain!
That said the hair thing I think was just a derogatory stereotype (like thicker skulls, itus, good at sports and besides I quite like getting my hair wet and I ain't a Cat) that was quickly adopted as an excuse by black people who couldn't be arsed jumping into water for 'enjoyment'.
I can swim, I don't however as I have over -5 vision and wear (soft) contact lenses and chlorine would dry them out/potentially damage my eyes.Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
DonDaddyD wrote:MrChuck wrote:Back on topic, does anybody else get the CTC magazine? In the letters section in the last issue (I must have been pretty bored that day) a girl had written in to bemoan the lack of photos of ethnic cyclists in the magazine (she'd been through and counted).
Do people think it should be job of the CTC etc. to try and promote broader participation? Or can they only reflect what's going on?
It could be argued that if CTC did promote a broader participation it would increase its readership, its impossible to truly reflect what is going on (what is going on by the way?) but I personally feel helping to encourage diversity or be ethnically diverse in a magazine* could do no harm.
.
'reflect what's going on' was very lazy shorthand for 'reflect the fact that there just aren't very many cyclists from ethnic minorities'.
I'm in two minds really, I take your point about subtle (or not so subtle) clues or cues, on the other hand the idea of the CTC magazine doing anything about it strikes me as a bit like photoshopping, even if it was well-intentioned.0 -
lost_in_thought wrote:Anyway. Agent57, you're not allowed to row unless you can swim 100m. That might be the way you find yourself in a body of water unexpectedly!
Well, quite. That's why I cited rowing as the only thing I particularly think I'm missing out on by being unable to swim.
Anyway, it's too late for me. I'm far too embarrassed and self-conscious to flounder around in the learner pool at my age. 0 -
Agent57 wrote:lost_in_thought wrote:Anyway. Agent57, you're not allowed to row unless you can swim 100m. That might be the way you find yourself in a body of water unexpectedly!
Well, quite. That's why I cited rowing as the only thing I particularly think I'm missing out on by being unable to swim.
Anyway, it's too late for me. I'm far too embarrassed and self-conscious to flounder around in the learner pool at my age.
Still, it's a shame! The Lansdowne Club do adults swimming lessons, and 100m is only 4 lengths... Just putting that out there...
Oh and rowing is great. 0 -
lost_in_thought wrote:Those names are utterly idiotic, but my comment about stupidity above was not actually related to the names, more to the quotes from the article. But back to the names -
I think that just shows your arrogance/ignorance to be honest. I can't decide which, maybe both.LiT wrote:how do you expect a person to be taken seriously if they're called JaTavious, for goodness sake?
Same way you expect to be taken seriously being called Olivia.
There are no defined rules of what we can and cannot be named.
Would you not take a person with a Welsh name seriously, or a Japanese name, African perhaps? Maybe Italian? French? Or someone named after a specific place? Or is it just the ones you're simply don't approve of or aren't familar with?LiT wrote:And sure, you don't HAVE to learn how to swim, but I'm not seeing any compelling arguments against it. I wasn't given the option. And the 'lack of pools'? Well, I can't speak for the US, but here in the UK, there's definitely no lack.
Actually there is (a lack of) and they are continuing to close down in socially deprived areas, which is exactly the type of place that you might find people who haven't been taught to swim.
Schools in such areas also tend not to have the funding, resources or (and as I heard once) time to take school kids to the swimming pool to learn.Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
MrChuck wrote:I'm in two minds really, I take your point about subtle (or not so subtle) clues or cues, on the other hand the idea of the CTC magazine doing anything about it strikes me as a bit like photoshopping, even if it was well-intentioned.
I agree, I guess we've got to wait for either Nike or Adidas to make a bike (hell even I might be all over that) and then all the Urbanites will want one or for a black dude to win the Tour and be good looking and goout with a Pussycat Doll.
I watch F1 now...Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
DonDaddyD wrote:LiT wrote:how do you expect a person to be taken seriously if they're called JaTavious, for goodness sake?
Same way you expect to be taken seriously being called Olivia.
There are no defined rules of what we can and cannot be named.
Well, no not really, but it doesn't work like that. Like it or (most probably) not, people will always be judged on appearance/background, and giving someone that kind of name is a big flashing neon sign advertising that they are from a deprived area or similar.
It shouldn't hurt their life prospects, but I suspect that human nature will ensure that it does.FCN - 10
Cannondale Bad Boy Solo with baggies.0 -
PBo on the 3rd September wrote:"Black respondents, far more than white or Hispanic respondents, were sometimes concerned about the effect chlorinated water would have on their hair."
If only there was a regular contributor to this board, comfortable enough with their own masculinity to discuss issues such as, say, 'nad waxing and moisturising, we could we call upon for an in depth education on this issue???????
:twisted:]
I use a hair product called 'baby love' its made by sta-sof-fro. Sometimes I use another product called 'Dark and Lovely'.
What chlorine does to my hair is hugely annoying, I've got to wash it, dry it and then oil it all over again. If you have plaits, cane/corn rows this is doubly hard and for a girl who spent 3-6hrs having their hair relaxed or permed (which burns by the way) and spent £65+ to make it look 'European' its just a pain!
Ahhhh - there you are! Took your time didn't you!!! 0 -
Agent57 wrote:DonDaddyD wrote:Why do people expect traditional English names and nothing else.
My dad wanted to name me Yevteshenko (after Yevgeny Yevtushenko, the Russian poet). I've always been somewhat disappointed that he didn't get his way. Instead, I'm named after a loaf of health-giving bread. =/
Mighty white?0 -
notsoblue wrote:Agent57 wrote:DonDaddyD wrote:Why do people expect traditional English names and nothing else.
My dad wanted to name me Yevteshenko (after Yevgeny Yevtushenko, the Russian poet). I've always been somewhat disappointed that he didn't get his way. Instead, I'm named after a loaf of health-giving bread. =/
Mighty white?
Daren.
There used to be bread vans in London with "Daren" on the side, as well as at least one shop.
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notsoblue wrote:Agent57 wrote:DonDaddyD wrote:Why do people expect traditional English names and nothing else.
My dad wanted to name me Yevteshenko (after Yevgeny Yevtushenko, the Russian poet). I've always been somewhat disappointed that he didn't get his way. Instead, I'm named after a loaf of health-giving bread. =/
Mighty white?
Hovis, surely? Must be wholemeal, not white!
I'm named after a bread too.....that well known flat bread.......
Peter
IGMC0 -
soundninjauk wrote:DonDaddyD wrote:LiT wrote:how do you expect a person to be taken seriously if they're called JaTavious, for goodness sake?
Same way you expect to be taken seriously being called Olivia.
There are no defined rules of what we can and cannot be named.
Well, no not really, but it doesn't work like that. Like it or (most probably) not, people will always be judged on appearance/background, and giving someone that kind of name is a big flashing neon sign advertising that they are from a deprived area or similar.
It shouldn't hurt their life prospects, but I suspect that human nature will ensure that it does.
Ah, generalisation used in a discriminatory manner.
Yes, its pompous and arrogant and I don't care for it to be honest. I think people should be named whatever their parents want to name them.
Better tell my mates Chris and Dave they've got no hope of geting decent jobs.Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
DonDaddyD wrote:soundninjauk wrote:DonDaddyD wrote:LiT wrote:how do you expect a person to be taken seriously if they're called JaTavious, for goodness sake?
Same way you expect to be taken seriously being called Olivia.
There are no defined rules of what we can and cannot be named.
Well, no not really, but it doesn't work like that. Like it or (most probably) not, people will always be judged on appearance/background, and giving someone that kind of name is a big flashing neon sign advertising that they are from a deprived area or similar.
It shouldn't hurt their life prospects, but I suspect that human nature will ensure that it does.
Ah, generalisation used in a discriminatory manner.
Yes, its pompous and arrogant and I don't care for it to be honest. I think people should be named whatever their parents want to name them.
Better tell my mates Chris and Dave they've got no hope of geting decent jobs.
Freakonomics does a chapter on this0 -
DonDaddyD wrote:lost_in_thought wrote:Those names are utterly idiotic, but my comment about stupidity above was not actually related to the names, more to the quotes from the article. But back to the names -
I think that just shows your arrogance/ignorance to be honest. I can't decide which, maybe both.LiT wrote:how do you expect a person to be taken seriously if they're called JaTavious, for goodness sake?
Same way you expect to be taken seriously being called Olivia.
There are no defined rules of what we can and cannot be named.
Would you not take a person with a Welsh name seriously, or a Japanese name, African perhaps? Maybe Italian? French? Or someone named after a specific place? Or is it just the ones you're simply don't approve of or aren't familar with?
Oh come on. You may as well argue that the sky is green.
There's a massive difference between being called Olivia, or Laurence, or something clearly stemming from a different culture and being called JaTavious.
And re. my comment on stupidity in the article - so do you think it's a) arrogant or b) ignorant to reckon that not wanting to teach your kids to swim in case they drown is stupid?0 -
There's a massive difference between being called Olivia, or Laurence, or something clearly stemming from a different culture and being called JaTavious.
The subject of a heated discussion with friends when these type of names started appearing in the UK. I freely admit we are all children born in the 60s so adhered to the naming conventions used by our parents. One of my young nieces has such a name I refuse to use so have given her a nickname. Rude of me? Probably, but she responds to it and until she asks me to use her given name, I'll continue to use my name for her.
Not sure she's familiar with a swimming pool either and not because of her hair type :twisted:0 -
Sure, those names look pretty odd to UK eyes, but I doubt they stand out that much in Louisiana1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
lost_in_thought wrote:
Oh come on. You may as well argue that the sky is green.
There's a massive difference between being called Olivia, or Laurence, or something clearly stemming from a different culture and being called JaTavious.
This is why I called you ignorant.
Calling your child JaTavious stems from a different culture: ethnic, social and geographic.
The way you dismissed it as idiotic came across as ignorant.
You may not like the names, I don't, but come on I think you're more Worldly, open minded and simply 'better' than that.
I don't think it is wrong to teach someone how to swim. I don't think its the hugely important, but it is a good skill to have. I was pointing out that some don't have the opportunity to learn regardless of if they were willing.
And re. my comment on stupidity in the article - so do you think it's a) arrogant or b) ignorant to reckon that not wanting to teach your kids to swim in case they drown is stupid?[/quote]Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
Indian.....Male........... or have we gone so far OT that it's not really relevant anymore Car? Scooby....
Motorbike? Ninja....
Bike? Sirrus or the XTC0 -
Cafewanda - whoops.... just remembered I've got your box of reflectors sitting here......Car? Scooby....
Motorbike? Ninja....
Bike? Sirrus or the XTC0 -
Agent57 wrote:notsoblue wrote:Agent57 wrote:DonDaddyD wrote:Why do people expect traditional English names and nothing else.
My dad wanted to name me Yevteshenko (after Yevgeny Yevtushenko, the Russian poet). I've always been somewhat disappointed that he didn't get his way. Instead, I'm named after a loaf of health-giving bread. =/
Mighty white?
Daren.
There used to be bread vans in London with "Daren" on the side, as well as at least one shop.
You're all over south-east London
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