Ethnicity and the Cycling

Spokejunkie

Stuey01 wrote:

Spokejunkie wrote:

So it's social attitudes when asking the questions do whites do this and that ,ah the goal posts seemd to have moved hmmmm. So if it's social it would apply to us brits as a whole then .However look up reports on the holiday resorts where us brits go and there have been a rather large amount of programmes over the last few years on this subject and I'm not sure I have seen a rise in ethnics being battered by foreign police after kicking off in the town with shouts of ingggerlannnnd after drinking. Look up Malia in Crete for one. For closer to home look at local town centres.

You are just desperate to be outraged aren't you?

"So if it's social it would apply to us brits as a whole then ."
So you think Britain as a whole consists of just one social group? hmmm, that logic is flawed in the extreme.

Behavioural and physiological differences are not the same. Is that difficult to understand?
It is not social differences that cause my skin to be a lighter shade than DDD's, it is also not social factors that cause DDD to have larger thigh and gluteal muscles than me despite our similar height, build, weight, and a comparable history of cycling and weight training. These are physiological differences influenced by our ethnicity and genetic make up. It is not prejudiced to observe that there are differences between people.

Some white British people go on the rampage when on holiday, however we do not see the same behaviour from white French people, who are ethnically very similar. Simplisticially this would imply that white people are not genetically predispositioned to go on the rampage when on holiday, but social factors influence this behaviour.

You are just desperate to be outraged aren't you? Nah not really just people are now taking bike riding down to genetic level . What next hmmm should that guy have a hardtail or roadbike , lets check your genetics before I sell you one and by the way we don't see many of your type riding but then it's down to genetics " that will be £1000 please sir" ,! Riding is fun , fun and yes fun again and I would have thought folks would be happy whatever the genetic or social make up of riders are , they may even possibly be transexual, gay ,who cares as we keep getting told that we are all getting fat and need the exercise ( another topic) plus the green factor , ride to work scheme and so forth. What difference does it really make on whom the rider is at the end of the day , it's an inidvidual on a bike and yes if I saw a fish on one then yes we'd really have someting to talk about. Oh and while typing this a fellow rider has pointed out that their are differences in alcohol intake on the genetic level as well . However I'm sure these genetics will be highlighted during various sports discussions as after all it's just a social thing .

Stuey01

Spokejunkie wrote:

Stuey01 wrote:

Spokejunkie wrote:

So it's social attitudes when asking the questions do whites do this and that ,ah the goal posts seemd to have moved hmmmm. So if it's social it would apply to us brits as a whole then .However look up reports on the holiday resorts where us brits go and there have been a rather large amount of programmes over the last few years on this subject and I'm not sure I have seen a rise in ethnics being battered by foreign police after kicking off in the town with shouts of ingggerlannnnd after drinking. Look up Malia in Crete for one. For closer to home look at local town centres.

You are just desperate to be outraged aren't you?

"So if it's social it would apply to us brits as a whole then ."
So you think Britain as a whole consists of just one social group? hmmm, that logic is flawed in the extreme.

Behavioural and physiological differences are not the same. Is that difficult to understand?
It is not social differences that cause my skin to be a lighter shade than DDD's, it is also not social factors that cause DDD to have larger thigh and gluteal muscles than me despite our similar height, build, weight, and a comparable history of cycling and weight training. These are physiological differences influenced by our ethnicity and genetic make up. It is not prejudiced to observe that there are differences between people.

Some white British people go on the rampage when on holiday, however we do not see the same behaviour from white French people, who are ethnically very similar. Simplisticially this would imply that white people are not genetically predispositioned to go on the rampage when on holiday, but social factors influence this behaviour.

You are just desperate to be outraged aren't you? Nah not really just people are now taking bike riding down to genetic level . What next hmmm should that guy have a hardtail or roadbike , lets check your genetics before I sell you one and by the way we don't see many of your type riding but then it's down to genetics " that will be £1000 please sir" ,! Riding is fun , fun and yes fun again and I would have thought folks would be happy whatever the genetic or social make up of riders are , they may even possibly be transexual, gay ,who cares as we keep getting told that we are all getting fat and need the exercise ( another topic) plus the green factor , ride to work scheme and so forth. What difference does it really make on whom the rider is at the end of the day , it's an inidvidual on a bike and yes if I saw a fish on one then yes we'd really have someting to talk about. Oh and while typing this a fellow rider has pointed out that their are differences in alcohol intake on the genetic level as well . However I'm sure these genetics will be highlighted during various sports discussions as after all it's just a social thing .

Reductio ad absurdium anyone?

At the recreational, commuting or even the lower levels of racing of course genetics are irrelevant to people having fun on bikes. Did anyone ever suggest that it did? At the top level of sport it DOES make a difference. As to whether you, I or anyone else enjoys riding whatever type of bike they choose, well that is really up to us as individuals to decide isn't it.

I'm being pedantic now, but genetics does not cause differences in alcohol intake, intake is about how much an individual chooses to drink. Genetics can play a role in how your body handles alcohol. There are some proven differences in how some races have adapted to handling alcohol. In a nutshell I believe Eastern Asians find it difficult to build up a significant tolerance to alcohol, in some, including a friend of mine, too much alcohol brings about a reaction almost akin to a mild allergy.

(edit for spelling)

biondino

maander wrote:

As mentioned before, a nice elderly lady working in the hospital where I was admitted
for an operation, who origianally came from the old Yugoslavia, mentioned in conversation
that she thought I was from "Africa". I don't know what she made of my half diminished
Mancunian accent. :roll: Must have confused the hell out of her.

Isn't Mancunia just south of Equatorial Guinea?

I've lost track of who's arguing what here. The only thing I can follow is Doog's trolling!

Spokejunkie

Stuey01 wrote:

Spokejunkie wrote:

Stuey01 wrote:

Spokejunkie wrote:

So it's social attitudes when asking the questions do whites do this and that ,ah the goal posts seemd to have moved hmmmm. So if it's social it would apply to us brits as a whole then .However look up reports on the holiday resorts where us brits go and there have been a rather large amount of programmes over the last few years on this subject and I'm not sure I have seen a rise in ethnics being battered by foreign police after kicking off in the town with shouts of ingggerlannnnd after drinking. Look up Malia in Crete for one. For closer to home look at local town centres.

You are just desperate to be outraged aren't you?

"So if it's social it would apply to us brits as a whole then ."
So you think Britain as a whole consists of just one social group? hmmm, that logic is flawed in the extreme.

Behavioural and physiological differences are not the same. Is that difficult to understand?
It is not social differences that cause my skin to be a lighter shade than DDD's, it is also not social factors that cause DDD to have larger thigh and gluteal muscles than me despite our similar height, build, weight, and a comparable history of cycling and weight training. These are physiological differences influenced by our ethnicity and genetic make up. It is not prejudiced to observe that there are differences between people.

Some white British people go on the rampage when on holiday, however we do not see the same behaviour from white French people, who are ethnically very similar. Simplisticially this would imply that white people are not genetically predispositioned to go on the rampage when on holiday, but social factors influence this behaviour.

You are just desperate to be outraged aren't you? Nah not really just people are now taking bike riding down to genetic level . What next hmmm should that guy have a hardtail or roadbike , lets check your genetics before I sell you one and by the way we don't see many of your type riding but then it's down to genetics " that will be £1000 please sir" ,! Riding is fun , fun and yes fun again and I would have thought folks would be happy whatever the genetic or social make up of riders are , they may even possibly be transexual, gay ,who cares as we keep getting told that we are all getting fat and need the exercise ( another topic) plus the green factor , ride to work scheme and so forth. What difference does it really make on whom the rider is at the end of the day , it's an inidvidual on a bike and yes if I saw a fish on one then yes we'd really have someting to talk about. Oh and while typing this a fellow rider has pointed out that their are differences in alcohol intake on the genetic level as well . However I'm sure these genetics will be highlighted during various sports discussions as after all it's just a social thing .

Reductio ad absurdium anyone?

At the recreational, commuting or even the lower levels of reacing of course genetics are irrelevant to people having fun on bikes. Did anyone ever suggest that it did? At the top level of sport it DOES make a difference. As to whether you, I or anyone else enjoys riding whatever type of bike they choose, well that is really up to us as individuals to decide isn't it.

I'm being pedantic now, but genetics does not cause differences in alcohol intake, intake is about how much an individual chooses to drink. Genetics can play a role in how your body handles alcohol. There are some proven differences in how some races have adapted to handling alcohol. In a nutshell I believe Eastern Asians find it difficult to build up a significant tolerance to alcohol, in some, including a friend of mine, too much alcohol brings about a reaction almost akin to a mild allergy.

Well if you were truly being pedantic you would have said that when you go out with this friend it would be a cheap round , if you drink that is. Who knows one day there may weapons based on geneitcs ie specific groups that could be targeted bio of course I don't suppose you happen to have the paper on that ? Taking what you have said so carefully into account could this genetic mapping be used at say Ladbrooks or Corals on a Sat afternoon and I suppose if someone had parents of different genetic backgounds that would have to be filtered into that as well....... hmmm the possiblities . Now where did I leave that fixture list ???

Spokejunkie

Stuey01 wrote:

Spokejunkie wrote:

Stuey01 wrote:

Spokejunkie wrote:

So it's social attitudes when asking the questions do whites do this and that ,ah the goal posts seemd to have moved hmmmm. So if it's social it would apply to us brits as a whole then .However look up reports on the holiday resorts where us brits go and there have been a rather large amount of programmes over the last few years on this subject and I'm not sure I have seen a rise in ethnics being battered by foreign police after kicking off in the town with shouts of ingggerlannnnd after drinking. Look up Malia in Crete for one. For closer to home look at local town centres.

You are just desperate to be outraged aren't you?

"So if it's social it would apply to us brits as a whole then ."
So you think Britain as a whole consists of just one social group? hmmm, that logic is flawed in the extreme.

Behavioural and physiological differences are not the same. Is that difficult to understand?
It is not social differences that cause my skin to be a lighter shade than DDD's, it is also not social factors that cause DDD to have larger thigh and gluteal muscles than me despite our similar height, build, weight, and a comparable history of cycling and weight training. These are physiological differences influenced by our ethnicity and genetic make up. It is not prejudiced to observe that there are differences between people.

Some white British people go on the rampage when on holiday, however we do not see the same behaviour from white French people, who are ethnically very similar. Simplisticially this would imply that white people are not genetically predispositioned to go on the rampage when on holiday, but social factors influence this behaviour.

You are just desperate to be outraged aren't you? Nah not really just people are now taking bike riding down to genetic level . What next hmmm should that guy have a hardtail or roadbike , lets check your genetics before I sell you one and by the way we don't see many of your type riding but then it's down to genetics " that will be £1000 please sir" ,! Riding is fun , fun and yes fun again and I would have thought folks would be happy whatever the genetic or social make up of riders are , they may even possibly be transexual, gay ,who cares as we keep getting told that we are all getting fat and need the exercise ( another topic) plus the green factor , ride to work scheme and so forth. What difference does it really make on whom the rider is at the end of the day , it's an inidvidual on a bike and yes if I saw a fish on one then yes we'd really have someting to talk about. Oh and while typing this a fellow rider has pointed out that their are differences in alcohol intake on the genetic level as well . However I'm sure these genetics will be highlighted during various sports discussions as after all it's just a social thing .

Reductio ad absurdium anyone?

At the recreational, commuting or even the lower levels of reacing of course genetics are irrelevant to people having fun on bikes. Did anyone ever suggest that it did? At the top level of sport it DOES make a difference. As to whether you, I or anyone else enjoys riding whatever type of bike they choose, well that is really up to us as individuals to decide isn't it.

I'm being pedantic now, but genetics does not cause differences in alcohol intake, intake is about how much an individual chooses to drink. Genetics can play a role in how your body handles alcohol. There are some proven differences in how some races have adapted to handling alcohol. In a nutshell I believe Eastern Asians find it difficult to build up a significant tolerance to alcohol, in some, including a friend of mine, too much alcohol brings about a reaction almost akin to a mild allergy.

Well if you were truly being pedantic you would have said that when you go out with this friend it would be a cheap round , if you drink that is. Who knows one day there may weapons based on geneitcs ie specific groups that could be targeted bio of course I don't suppose you happen to have the paper on that ? Taking what you have said so carefully into account could this genetic mapping be used at say Ladbrooks or Corals on a Sat afternoon and I suppose if someone had parents of different genetic backgounds that would have to be filtered into that as well....... hmmm the possiblities . Now where did I leave that fixture list ???

Spokejunkie

Stuey01 wrote:

Spokejunkie wrote:

Stuey01 wrote:

Spokejunkie wrote:

So it's social attitudes when asking the questions do whites do this and that ,ah the goal posts seemd to have moved hmmmm. So if it's social it would apply to us brits as a whole then .However look up reports on the holiday resorts where us brits go and there have been a rather large amount of programmes over the last few years on this subject and I'm not sure I have seen a rise in ethnics being battered by foreign police after kicking off in the town with shouts of ingggerlannnnd after drinking. Look up Malia in Crete for one. For closer to home look at local town centres.

You are just desperate to be outraged aren't you?

"So if it's social it would apply to us brits as a whole then ."
So you think Britain as a whole consists of just one social group? hmmm, that logic is flawed in the extreme.

Behavioural and physiological differences are not the same. Is that difficult to understand?
It is not social differences that cause my skin to be a lighter shade than DDD's, it is also not social factors that cause DDD to have larger thigh and gluteal muscles than me despite our similar height, build, weight, and a comparable history of cycling and weight training. These are physiological differences influenced by our ethnicity and genetic make up. It is not prejudiced to observe that there are differences between people.

Some white British people go on the rampage when on holiday, however we do not see the same behaviour from white French people, who are ethnically very similar. Simplisticially this would imply that white people are not genetically predispositioned to go on the rampage when on holiday, but social factors influence this behaviour.

You are just desperate to be outraged aren't you? Nah not really just people are now taking bike riding down to genetic level . What next hmmm should that guy have a hardtail or roadbike , lets check your genetics before I sell you one and by the way we don't see many of your type riding but then it's down to genetics " that will be £1000 please sir" ,! Riding is fun , fun and yes fun again and I would have thought folks would be happy whatever the genetic or social make up of riders are , they may even possibly be transexual, gay ,who cares as we keep getting told that we are all getting fat and need the exercise ( another topic) plus the green factor , ride to work scheme and so forth. What difference does it really make on whom the rider is at the end of the day , it's an inidvidual on a bike and yes if I saw a fish on one then yes we'd really have someting to talk about. Oh and while typing this a fellow rider has pointed out that their are differences in alcohol intake on the genetic level as well . However I'm sure these genetics will be highlighted during various sports discussions as after all it's just a social thing .

Reductio ad absurdium anyone?

At the recreational, commuting or even the lower levels of reacing of course genetics are irrelevant to people having fun on bikes. Did anyone ever suggest that it did? At the top level of sport it DOES make a difference. As to whether you, I or anyone else enjoys riding whatever type of bike they choose, well that is really up to us as individuals to decide isn't it.

I'm being pedantic now, but genetics does not cause differences in alcohol intake, intake is about how much an individual chooses to drink. Genetics can play a role in how your body handles alcohol. There are some proven differences in how some races have adapted to handling alcohol. In a nutshell I believe Eastern Asians find it difficult to build up a significant tolerance to alcohol, in some, including a friend of mine, too much alcohol brings about a reaction almost akin to a mild allergy.

Well if you were truly being pedantic you would have said that when you go out with this friend it would be a cheap round , if you drink that is. Who knows one day there may weapons based on geneitcs ie specific groups that could be targeted bio of course I don't suppose you happen to have the paper on that ? Taking what you have said so carefully into account could this genetic mapping be used at say Ladbrooks or Corals on a Sat afternoon and I suppose if someone had parents of different genetic backgounds that would have to be filtered into that as well....... hmmm the possiblities . Now where did I leave that fixture list ???

artaxerxes

There are some proven differences in how some races have adapted to handling alcohol. In a nutshell I believe Eastern Asians find it difficult to build up a significant tolerance to alcohol, in some, including a friend of mine, too much alcohol brings about a reaction almost akin to a mild allergy.

You are talking about the Alcohol Flush Reaction. A lot of Japanese have this, although my family seems to be resistant. Maybe we are descendants of Tom Cruise from his Last Samurai days....

Stuey01

I think you would have a fairly safe bet that the next 100m Olympic champion will be black, though I don't think Ladbrokes would lay you odds on it. Beyond that I don't think you'll have a great deal of luck trying to pick winners based on racial grounds.

I do drink and my friend is indeed a cheap date.

hodsgod

White English/European (father was Ausrtrian) married to a very very beautiful Japanese lady.

Stuey01

hodsgod wrote:

very very beautiful Japanese lady.

Lucky man, Japanese women are very beautiful, imo.

secretsam

prawny wrote:

White with a ginger beard, so i'm guessing there's some scottish blood if I go back far enough

May be more likely Scandanavian, as I think redheads are a genetic mutation of two blondes, witness my daughter.

Yours truly, DDD, is the pinky-bluest of white folks, with the usual background stew of Irish/Welsh/English with a large dash of German just for a bit of continental colour.

And I regularly get totally left standing by this ultra-lithe black guy on a Trek heading down the Euston road, he's like cycling quicksilver, seems to just pass through cars...but other than that, I guess it's mostly white folks on bikes, which is a shame.

Our team were chatting in the office the other day about the whole BBC - BNP thing, and it occurred to me that in my team of 5, I'm the minority 'cos I'm not from a "minority" - 2 British Asian guys (Pakistan and Indian extraction), one Turkish Cypriot and a lad of Jamaican extraction.

Spokejunkie

Stuey01 wrote:

I think you would have a fairly safe bet that the next 100m Olympic champion will be black, though I don't think Ladbrokes would lay you odds on it. Beyond that I don't think you'll have a great deal of luck trying to pick winners based on racial grounds.

I do drink and my friend is indeed a cheap date.

Yes Mr Hitler tried that in 1936 the result left him rather unhappy ! Nothing wrong with a cheap date in these particular economic times.

will3

Spokejunkie wrote:

Stuey01 wrote:

I think you would have a fairly safe bet that the next 100m Olympic champion will be black, though I don't think Ladbrokes would lay you odds on it. Beyond that I don't think you'll have a great deal of luck trying to pick winners based on racial grounds.

I do drink and my friend is indeed a cheap date.

Yes Mr Hitler tried that in 1936 the result left him rather unhappy ! Nothing wrong with a cheap date in these particular economic times.

Godwin's Law

We haz it

tailwindhome

Bit hesistant about bumping this thread up the page again but...

Channel 4 tonight at 10pm - The Event - How racist are you.

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-event-how-racist-are-you/articles/the-event-how-racist-are-you

Watched the same exercise on the Oprah Winfrey show ( :oops: ) about 15 years ago and it is an amazing insight into how racist views are formed.

hodsgod

Stuey01 wrote:

hodsgod wrote:

very very beautiful Japanese lady.

Lucky man, Japanese women are very beautiful, imo.

Yes I agree, irresistable too. I was lucky enough to live in Japan for a few years and met a very lovely girl there. We have been together nearly 5 years now,

DonDaddyD

This topic has gone crazy, until someone comes in and makes sense - LiT, Linsen, ITB, Greg or someone - I'm out.

Cafewanda

artaxerxes wrote:

There are some proven differences in how some races have adapted to handling alcohol. In a nutshell I believe Eastern Asians find it difficult to build up a significant tolerance to alcohol, in some, including a friend of mine, too much alcohol brings about a reaction almost akin to a mild allergy.

You are talking about the Alcohol Flush Reaction. A lot of Japanese have this, although my family seems to be resistant. Maybe we are descendants of Tom Cruise from his Last Samurai days....

biondino

WheezyMcChubby wrote:

Bit hesistant about bumping this thread up the page again but...

Channel 4 tonight at 10pm - The Event - How racist are you.

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-event-how-racist-are-you/articles/the-event-how-racist-are-you

Watched the same exercise on the Oprah Winfrey show ( :oops: ) about 15 years ago and it is an amazing insight into how racist views are formed.

Aww, I was hoping there'd be a quiz I could take. I reckon I'm 6% racist.

tailwindhome

DonDaddyD wrote:

This topic has gone crazy, until someone comes in and makes sense - LiT, Linsen, ITB, Greg or someone - I'm out.

Blondie wrote:

Aww, I was hoping there'd be a quiz I could take. I reckon I'm 6% racist.

You're not on the list of approved posters

MonkeyMonster

Article fromm todays BBC News and made me remember this thread...

See people the search function does work!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11172054

rolf_f

Seeing as this thread has returned.....

I did the Buggers Hill Rumble on Sunday. Around the Northern edge of the route (Horstead Keynes to Edenbridge) the Rumble route ran opposite to the route of another organised ride; presumably a charity thing as there were lots of eg heavy birds pushing BSOs up slight inclines as well as folks on Pinarellos, TT bikes etc. A really mixed bunch. Most remarkable thing though was the number of black guys on the run. Seemed like one in 10 almost. Given that the Rumble was your typically undiverse mix, this other run clearly appealed to groups that the Rumble didn't.

Agent57

I can't swim. I can ride a bike though.

wgwarburton

MonkeyMonster wrote:

Article fromm todays BBC News and made me remember this thread...

See people the search function does work!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11172054

Hah! Yes, I saw that too- the thing that caught my eye was (of course) the reference to bike helmets!!

Apparantly, teaching your children to swim is akin to teaching them to wear bike helmets or use seat belts...

Wouldn't swimming be a life skill, like, riding a bike or driving a car...? A better comparison to seat belts and helmets would be wearing a buoyancy aid, I would think!

Cheers,
W.

lost_in_thought

Erm...

The thing I noticed most was the names..... :shock: :shock: :shock:

JaTavious Warner, 17, Takeitha Warner, 13, JaMarcus Warner, 14, Litrelle Stewart, 18, Latevin Stewart, 15, and LaDarius Stewart, 17

Perhaps the problem is less ethnicity and more stupidity.

Also, I am amazed that people can't swim!

Agent57

I know some adults who can't ride bikes. That's even more amazing.

rjsterry

lost_in_thought wrote:

Erm...

The thing I noticed most was the names..... :shock: :shock: :shock:

JaTavious Warner, 17, Takeitha Warner, 13, JaMarcus Warner, 14, Litrelle Stewart, 18, Latevin Stewart, 15, and LaDarius Stewart, 17

Perhaps the problem is less ethnicity and more stupidity.

Also, I am amazed that people can't swim!

'Unusual', yes. I don't think having an funny name predetermines your ability to swim though, does it? I'd guess most people in this country learn to swim at school (a point picked up in the article), but that isn't the case in the US, and given the other cultural reasons listed, it's not really that surprising.

lost_in_thought

rjsterry wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

Erm...

The thing I noticed most was the names..... :shock: :shock: :shock:

JaTavious Warner, 17, Takeitha Warner, 13, JaMarcus Warner, 14, Litrelle Stewart, 18, Latevin Stewart, 15, and LaDarius Stewart, 17

Perhaps the problem is less ethnicity and more stupidity.

Also, I am amazed that people can't swim!

'Unusual', yes. I don't think having an funny name predetermines your ability to swim though, does it? I'd guess most people in this country learn to swim at school (a point picked up in the article), but that isn't the case in the US, and given the other cultural reasons listed, it's not really that surprising.

Well, I'd argue that not being able to swim is pretty bloomin' stupid, I mean, there are bodies of water all over the place, you're quite likely to find yourself in one at some point, and surely being able to swim is a good idea. The 'I don't want them to swim because they will drown' strikes me as flatly idiotic regardless of your cultural leanings.

rjsterry

I did think that fear of water theory was a bit thin. I would have thought it more likely that, especially in urban areas, there's not much opportunity to learn. If it's not taught as standard in schools, and the local pool is a run down sh!thole you'd find other ways to spend your time, not go out of your way to learn a skill that you then have little opportunity to practice.

Parents not having the skills to pass on must also be a big factor - similar to children in this country having no idea about where food comes from or how to cook, because their parents don't have the knowledge to pass on.

cee

rjsterry wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

Erm...

The thing I noticed most was the names..... :shock: :shock: :shock:

JaTavious Warner, 17, Takeitha Warner, 13, JaMarcus Warner, 14, Litrelle Stewart, 18, Latevin Stewart, 15, and LaDarius Stewart, 17

Perhaps the problem is less ethnicity and more stupidity.

Also, I am amazed that people can't swim!

'Unusual', yes. I don't think having an funny name predetermines your ability to swim though, does it? I'd guess most people in this country learn to swim at school (a point picked up in the article), but that isn't the case in the US, and given the other cultural reasons listed, it's not really that surprising.

they are probably not even all that unusual in Louisiana either.......bet they think our names are stupid too.....

_Brun_

Letting your children arse about in a river knowing that none of them or any of the 'adults' present can swim goes rather a long way beyond stupidity.