Red means STOP

alfablue

Very wise post!

richardast

Most RLJers don't care.
They want to be controversial and crazy. They think that the girls think they're cool for not conforming to The Man's rules.

They don't realise that it's actually like a sad case of teenage angst meets mid-life crisis and most people just think they're d1cks.

jedster

richardast,

very true, very much a "too cool for school" mentality although I will say that there are two other types of RLJer in my experience::

1. the very timid who genuinely think its safer (because they have no idea about road positioning)

2. the depressingly dumb who haven't even thought about it

J

iainment

richardast wrote:

Most RLJers don't care.
They want to be controversial and crazy. They think that the girls think they're cool for not conforming to The Man's rules.

They don't realise that it's actually like a sad case of teenage angst meets mid-life crisis and most people just think they're d1cks.

Blimey you couldn't be more wrong. For me it's just if it's safe and clear I'll go. Simple as.

iainment

Always Tyred wrote:

In this country we are getting perilously close to being compelled to use cycle "facilities", have bicycle registration platess and pay road tax for bicycles.

This is also the country where it is cheaper to drive than it is to take the train than it is to fly. Its barking.

However, a compelling reason for not running red lights (unless there is some extreme reason, such as not being able to trigger the f-ing magnetic thing on a deserted road) is that it annoys motorists and simply increases the possibility that this harmless form of transport is actually made illegal under some circumstances.

Its irrelevant to debate whether or not bending the rules under some circumstances is okay, because 99% of the rest of the population don't think so. It doesn't matter if you agree with them or not.

You have to think like a discriminated minority. (Although, before anyone has an attack of vicarious political correctness, lets say for the record that I am drawing an analogy, not being literal). As such (and not withstanding that, unlike a car running a red light, the cyclist is doing nothing other than being irritating) the battle to be fought is to be free and safe to use the roads according to the rules of the road. If we were afforded this luxury by traffic, it would be a vast improvement on where we are and where we are going.

Unless we are beyond reproach, we aren't going to have any leverage against the majority of other road users who don't really want us there.

So, if like all of us you do bend the rules under some circumstances, do it discretely, not in front of a line of fuming motorists caught in rush hour traffic.

No I don't. I cycle to get from a-b and to maintain a modicum of fitness. I am not a role model for anyone or anything and expecting me - and all other cyclists - to be one is going to give you much disappointment.
If I break the rules that is a reflection of me not anyone else.

:shock:

alfablue

iainment wrote:

If I break the rules that is a reflection of me not anyone else.

:shock:

But it is unlikely the vast majority of he motoring public will think "oh that's just iainment, he's a one off, the rest of the cycling fraternity are very decent law abiding road users". I could ask how you might address that, but there's no point as you don't give a toss. You're alright (Jack) and after all, thats all that really matters....to you! Its okay, we have got the message now.

iainment

alfablue wrote:

iainment wrote:

If I break the rules that is a reflection of me not anyone else.

:shock:

But it is unlikely the vast majority of he motoring public will think "oh that's just iainment, he's a one off, the rest of the cycling fraternity are very decent law abiding road users". I could ask how you might address that, but there's no point as you don't give a toss. You're alright (Jack) and after all, thats all that really matters....to you! Its okay, we have got the message now.

Interestingly while I get grief over this on here, I can only remember 2 times in the last 2 years when anything was said to me by anyone on the road. As I am not particularly quick I can only assume what I do has not offended anyone. As I have said before I don't take any other person's right of way and only proceed if it is safe to do so. Not quite the same as speeding through without any concern for peds or other road users.
I believe that there is a way to rlj that doesn't ruffle feathers. And yes I don't accept any responsibility for the general cycling "fraternity" (what about the sisters) and only feel responsible for my actions.

8)

always_tyred

iainment wrote:

alfablue wrote:

iainment wrote:

If I break the rules that is a reflection of me not anyone else.

:shock:

But it is unlikely the vast majority of he motoring public will think "oh that's just iainment, he's a one off, the rest of the cycling fraternity are very decent law abiding road users". I could ask how you might address that, but there's no point as you don't give a toss. You're alright (Jack) and after all, thats all that really matters....to you! Its okay, we have got the message now.

Interestingly while I get grief over this on here, I can only remember 2 times in the last 2 years when anything was said to me by anyone on the road. As I am not particularly quick I can only assume what I do has not offended anyone. As I have said before I don't take any other person's right of way and only proceed if it is safe to do so. Not quite the same as speeding through without any concern for peds or other road users.
I believe that there is a way to rlj that doesn't ruffle feathers. And yes I don't accept any responsibility for the general cycling "fraternity" (what about the sisters) and only feel responsible for my actions.

8)

No, really, you are mistaken.

How much do you ride? I get simple and arbitrary get off the road abuse far more often than you seem to. Either I'm an idiot or I spend more time on the road, or because I wait at lights, there's more opportunity while everyone's stationary . For every time that happens, there are dozens and dozens of people that cut me up in a fit of pique (because I've held up their progress to the back of the next queue).

Please trust people like me telling you that your behaviour makes it more likely that we will all get abuse or worse.

A tip - I guess that you are experienced enough to get into the right gear so that you can get off the line quickly, right? If so, by all means get out in front of traffic. There is usually about a bike length between the stop line and the ped crossing.

That is the "doesn't count as jumping the light" zone, I would say, and you are also right in view of the traffic. You are also in the best place to anticipate the lights. This means that you can get a SLIGHT jump on them (e.g. I sometimes see people clip in and roll forwards a bit when the cross traffic stops) and get across the junction ahead of traffic.

To be honest, that might actually be safer anyway, because cars will still be going quite slowly by the time they come up to you, rather than full chat. In addition, they are less likely to think that you are a cock and might be less inclined to buzz you. ("fool" is not the word I chose btw....)

You really ought to be able to get across most junctions well ahead of cars, you know. Are you really that slow? May as well get off and walk mate.

andyfromletchworth

i know and agree with most of the arguments already made on here as to why RLJ is a bad thing. I know it provides ammo for bike hating car owners to shoot us with etc etc. I am a 41 yo man with kids and a decent job...............

but i just cant help jumping red lights... its like tourretts. Go figure.

Mind you i did smoke 40 fags a day for years so maybe i am just stupid.

Andy

always_tyred

andyfromletchworth wrote:

i know and agree with most of the arguments already made on here as to why RLJ is a bad thing. I know it provides ammo for bike hating car owners to shoot us with etc etc. I am a 41 yo man with kids and a decent job...............

but i just cant help jumping red lights... its like tourretts. Go figure.

Mind you i did smoke 40 fags a day for years so maybe i am just stupid.

Andy

I'm trying really hard to be angry

pieinthesky

This morning I waited for the lights to go green (as always). As I started moving, the car behind swerved round me almost hitting me, a moment later a car coming from the left (on a red light) failed to stop until we almost collided.

On another day either of these drivers could have injured or killed me.

If I had gone 30 seconds earlier, when my light was red (holding back the traffic behind) and nothing was coming onto the roundabout from the left, I would have had a clear and safe route through the roundabout.

I can therefore say that IT IS SOMETIMES SAFER TO JUMP A RED LIGHT

I knew something like this could happen and to be legal have not taken advantage of the clear road offered by the red light. Do I continue to wait for the green light and traffic mayhem and risk my life or go when protected by the red light?

MattBlackBigBoysBMX

pieinthesky wrote:

a car coming from the left (on a red light) failed to stop until we almost collided.


I can therefore say that IT IS SOMETIMES SAFER TO JUMP A RED LIGHT

Steven Martin

MattBlackBigBoysBMX wrote:

pieinthesky wrote:

a car coming from the left (on a red light) failed to stop until we almost collided.


I can therefore say that IT IS SOMETIMES SAFER TO JUMP A RED LIGHT

I believe that technically this is called 'Post-hoc rationalisation'.

After events you have come up with a theory that had you acted differently there would have been a different outcome. Obviously that is correct. However, we do not have the benefit of prescience, so it is therefore irrelevant. You cannot tell beforehand when you will be safer to RLJ. Had the car crashed through the lights a few seconds earlier than it had and you had jumped the lights you may be dead right now.

I think the previous points made about social acceptance and us being treated as a minority are the ones that we need to focus on. Normally rational friends of mine are very anti-bike because of their skewed views of us - largely a response to those cyclists that break the rules, even the ones that don't feel responsible for it....

saveswalking

Waiting duitifully at a set of traffic lights (junction) on red couple of days ago in the ASL a van pulls up and we wait. Along comes another cyclist who stops , has a good look around and continues on his way over the light on red. Van driver sticks his head out of the window and says "why didn't you do that then you soppy c**t ?" ... I still haven't thought of a decent reply :roll:
Left me thinking that maybe its best to appease the motorist by conforming to their expectations/prejudices than hang around annoying them by not.
sw

SamWise72

iainment wrote:

alfablue wrote:

iainment wrote:

If I break the rules that is a reflection of me not anyone else.

:shock:

But it is unlikely the vast majority of he motoring public will think "oh that's just iainment, he's a one off, the rest of the cycling fraternity are very decent law abiding road users". I could ask how you might address that, but there's no point as you don't give a toss. You're alright (Jack) and after all, thats all that really matters....to you! Its okay, we have got the message now.

Interestingly while I get grief over this on here, I can only remember 2 times in the last 2 years when anything was said to me by anyone on the road. As I am not particularly quick I can only assume what I do has not offended anyone. As I have said before I don't take any other person's right of way and only proceed if it is safe to do so. Not quite the same as speeding through without any concern for peds or other road users.
I believe that there is a way to rlj that doesn't ruffle feathers. And yes I don't accept any responsibility for the general cycling "fraternity" (what about the sisters) and only feel responsible for my actions.

8)

Are you the clown who comes creaking past me on the embankment whilst I'm waiting for the light, sails blithely across the junction, and who I then have to get out further into traffic to overtake, at every set of lights ALL THE WAY ALONG? If so, then perhaps I'll express my displeasure next time in person, rather than just silently cursing your back as you trundle away.

iainment

SamWise72 wrote:

iainment wrote:

alfablue wrote:

iainment wrote:

If I break the rules that is a reflection of me not anyone else.

:shock:

But it is unlikely the vast majority of he motoring public will think "oh that's just iainment, he's a one off, the rest of the cycling fraternity are very decent law abiding road users". I could ask how you might address that, but there's no point as you don't give a toss. You're alright (Jack) and after all, thats all that really matters....to you! Its okay, we have got the message now.

Interestingly while I get grief over this on here, I can only remember 2 times in the last 2 years when anything was said to me by anyone on the road. As I am not particularly quick I can only assume what I do has not offended anyone. As I have said before I don't take any other person's right of way and only proceed if it is safe to do so. Not quite the same as speeding through without any concern for peds or other road users.
I believe that there is a way to rlj that doesn't ruffle feathers. And yes I don't accept any responsibility for the general cycling "fraternity" (what about the sisters) and only feel responsible for my actions.

8)

Are you the clown who comes creaking past me on the embankment whilst I'm waiting for the light, sails blithely across the junction, and who I then have to get out further into traffic to overtake, at every set of lights ALL THE WAY ALONG? If so, then perhaps I'll express my displeasure next time in person, rather than just silently cursing your back as you trundle away.

No, as I have said many times I don't sail blithely across any junction.That would be stupid. I assess each light and if it is safe to go without causing danger to me or other road users and peds I go.
As to your problem with slower, than you, cyclists - get a life. If it wasn't the person you mention it would be someone else in your way. You live in London, it's crowded there are cyclists of all abilities and speeds on the roads, get used to it.

redvee

What is classed as RLJing? Creeping forward of the line but not crossing the junction into the path of oncoming/crossing traffic?

SamWise72

iainment wrote:

No, as I have said many times I don't sail blithely across any junction.That would be stupid. I assess each light and if it is safe to go without causing danger to me or other road users and peds I go.
As to your problem with slower, than you, cyclists - get a life. If it wasn't the person you mention it would be someone else in your way. You live in London, it's crowded there are cyclists of all abilities and speeds on the roads, get used to it.

I don't live in London, I only have to ride there. And, I have no objection to passing slower cyclists. What I do mind is having to repass slower cyclists 23 times because they're unable to obey a simple road rule. I don't see why I should have to pass you over and over again simply because I choose to obey the law. Perhaps a stick through the spokes would make the point? I find it interesting that you claim not to get any stick, but all the stick you get here, you reject out of hand. What would you do if someone got out of their English politeness-zone, and berated you about it on the street?

Regarding this:

"I assess each light and if it is safe to go without causing danger to me or other road users and peds I go."

Will you be happy if I decide to start practising this in my car? Or will that royally piss you off for some reason?

Richard_D

Assessing if it is safe and then going through is what killed the lad in Southampton. He RLJed straight into a speeding texting motorist

iainment

SamWise72 wrote:

iainment wrote:

No, as I have said many times I don't sail blithely across any junction.That would be stupid. I assess each light and if it is safe to go without causing danger to me or other road users and peds I go.
As to your problem with slower, than you, cyclists - get a life. If it wasn't the person you mention it would be someone else in your way. You live in London, it's crowded there are cyclists of all abilities and speeds on the roads, get used to it.

I don't live in London, I only have to ride there. And, I have no objection to passing slower cyclists. What I do mind is having to repass slower cyclists 23 times because they're unable to obey a simple road rule. I don't see why I should have to pass you over and over again simply because I choose to obey the law. Perhaps a stick through the spokes would make the point? I find it interesting that you claim not to get any stick, but all the stick you get here, you reject out of hand. What would you do if someone got out of their English politeness-zone, and berated you about it on the street?

Regarding this:

"I assess each light and if it is safe to go without causing danger to me or other road users and peds I go."

Will you be happy if I decide to start practising this in my car? Or will that royally wee-wee you off for some reason?

Well I disagree with you, you won't change my mind and I won't change yours, however try not to get too tense whilst cycling as your concentration will be impaired. You know this person is on your route, you know you'll have to overtake them a few times. Let it go and be aware of the real dangers on the road - motor vehicles.

If you were to put a stick through anyone's spokes how would that make your argument? 2 wrongs don't make a right you know.

Enjoy your Easter.

Pip pip.

iainment

Richard_D wrote:

Assessing if it is safe and then going through is what killed the lad in Southampton. He RLJed straight into a speeding texting motorist

Well he didn't assess it then did he, if there's a car coming it's foolish to proceed and I don't rlj if there is anything coming that has right of way.

Mark Alexander

well, here we go

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7308400.stm

Naughty, naughty

and
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7308895.stm

ricadus

Well politicians aren't exactly saints, but I don't think that jaywalking (which technically is what he was doing, since it was a red light on a crossing, not a junction) is actually an offense in the country – yet.

The one way street, though... tut tut!

SamWise72

iainment wrote:

If you were to put a stick through anyone's spokes how would that make your argument? 2 wrongs don't make a right you know.

Enjoy your Easter.

Pip pip.

Don't worry - I'm not really going to put a stick through someone's spokes, and I don't really waste too much concentration on these things. What you've said here about nobody complaining when you're actually riding has got me thinking though. I'm 99% sure that every cyclist who's sitting at the lights when some numpty sails through is frustrated too, and I now wonder if all the numptys think "you know what? Nobody really minds". I might genuinely start letting people know that I think their behaviour is stupid, irresponsible and dangerous, albeit I'll try to do it in a polite way, rather than by screaming at them.

Denny69

Okay we'll have to agree that some, but not all cyclists RLJ and that if caught they face a £30 slap on the wrist (or is it £60?) anyway we can spend many an hour discussing this and we''l always end up with those who advocate and those who don't but in the cloud that has descended over this discussion we forgot one thing......

What about the pedestrians who cross at pelican crossings when the man is on RED? pedantic...yes entirely, but one rule for one and all that!! Sorry but if the law is going to fine cyclists for RLJ'ing, and I'm not in any way condoning such an action, then pedestrians should be fined for not waiting for the green light at a crossing.

Now some people might say that there isn't an argument there......say that when you crash into a stray pedestrian who can't wait and knack your £1500+ carbon framed bike then they have the audacity to SUE YOU!!!! The sad thing is they'd probably win as well.

MegaCycle

It makes me really cross when I see cyclists disregarding road signals, as though they somehow "don't apply to cyclists".

When you consider the bashing we constantly get from motorists, including the totally unforgiveable lack of sympathy each time a cyclist is killed – “oh he probably ran a red light. They all do it” – it hardly helps. Every cyclist that disobeys a road signal (for whatever reasons) means I, and all the other obedient bikies, get a panning from motorists.

And johhnyhotdog, I am not having a go at you personally. I just really really wish cyclists would obey the rules. I frequently see people without helmets and no lights and I just wonder, aside from the bad press it inevitably attracts, “do you seriously just want to be killed?”

iainment

MegaCycle wrote:

It makes me really cross when I see cyclists disregarding road signals, as though they somehow "don't apply to cyclists".

When you consider the bashing we constantly get from motorists, including the totally unforgiveable lack of sympathy each time a cyclist is killed – “oh he probably ran a red light. They all do it” – it hardly helps. Every cyclist that disobeys a road signal (for whatever reasons) means I, and all the other obedient bikies, get a panning from motorists.

And johhnyhotdog, I am not having a go at you personally. I just really really wish cyclists would obey the rules. I frequently see people without helmets and no lights and I just wonder, aside from the bad press it inevitably attracts, “do you seriously just want to be killed?”

You'll be flamed about the helmet.

Crooky

Megacycle you're not a cyclist are you, you're a driver who sometimes cycles. Helmets! What are you on about? It's not a legal requirement to wear one.


However you know what makes me cross? 9 out of 10 drivers breaking the speed limit on a daily basis, most think the speed limit is a minimum. 1/3 of road deaths are directly related to speeding, so that's over a thousand people wiped out each year. That's more than the murder total for the whole of the UK! How many people killed by cyclists? Get a grip man.

And what is everyones problem with cyclists jumping lights? I sit and watch car after car jump lights every day of the week. They may not be so blatent but they are far more dangerous. To the motorist Amber means "floor the car". Fellow motorists are blickered to these actions though, usually because they do it themselves.

What you need to realise mega is that the motorists' dislike of cyclists is prejudice pure and simple. They don't need a reason.

MattBlackBigBoysBMX

Crooky wrote:

Megacycle you're not a cyclist are you, you're a driver who sometimes cycles. Helmets! What are you on about? It's not a legal requirement to wear one.

It's not a legal requirement for cars to have airbags, yet they still increase safety. :idea:

Crooky wrote:

However you know what makes me cross? 9 out of 10 drivers breaking the speed limit on a daily basis, most think the speed limit is a minimum. 1/3 of road deaths are directly related to speeding, so that's over a thousand people wiped out each year. That's more than the murder total for the whole of the UK! How many people killed by cyclists? Get a grip man.

That's bollocks. It's not 30%, it's closer to 3%. Do your research.

Crooky wrote:

And what is everyones problem with cyclists jumping lights?

So your justification for not wearing a helmet is that it is not a legal requirement, yet it is ok to RLJ even though it is against the law?

Somewhere, a village has lost it's idiot. :roll:

Crooky wrote:

What you need to realise mega is that the motorists' dislike of cyclists is prejudice pure and simple. They don't need a reason.

I don't like cyclists who jump red lights. Is that ok for me, considering I don't own a car?
Perhaps I'm prejudiced towards cyclists even though I am a cyclist?
Perhaps I'm prejudiced because I used to own a car?
Or perhaps I'm not prejudiced and you are just an utter fool?

Take your pick, you're still an idiot.

richardast

:shock:
I was thinking it. Didn't expect anyone to actually go and say it.