Red means STOP

bigmug

What is about some cyclists that they run red lights - out today and saw one, saw one a few weeks ago also at the same spot - which given the chances of seeing a cyclist at that moment makes it statistically significant!
Yeah, I too like to bat on at 20+ mph and like most I hate having to stop and lose momentum, but come on, is it one rule for us....

Do they think only Kryptonite can hurt them? :evil:

johnnyhotdog

I GO THROUGH RED LIGHTS.

i'm only shouting because i thought it might be like a support group where i have to srand up and admit my wrongs.

i was explaining why i do on another forum but basically....

sometimes i think it's FAR SAFER to go through a red light and be in a good, safe position on the road ahead than wait for the green and get mashed.

i don't mean flying through pedestrians whilst they are crossing or racing across huge junctions with your eyes closed giving a one fingered salute. that's just wrong. there are lots of situations when i feel safer going through the red and some examples are:

1. If two lanes merge into one after the junction,

2. Parked cars on the left mean i'll have to pull out,

3. A large vehicle is turning left or

4. Traffic density is high i.e if there's a bus, a skip lorry (driver paid per delivery,) a taxi, a chavved up clio, mr. city gent in a BMW on the phone and a 4x4 with three kids in the back having a riot and distracting mum (who is so frightened of her vehicles bulk and power that she's a nervous driver anyway), then they will all be fighting for road position with whatever might also be behind when the light turns green - i'd much rather be way out in front when the lights change rather than fighting with that lot - i'm not going to win!

I always give way to pedestrians but don't give in to the anger of envious car drivers.

to summarise:

i go through red lights when necessary as long as it is safe to do so and i'm not going through pedestrians crossing on a green man.

i also watch lights in order to get a head start if that's possible/preferable to going through a red.

i don't put myself in danger, pedestrians in danger or cause any other traffic any concerns over my behaviour.

MattBlackBigBoysBMX

bigmug wrote:

What is about some cyclists that they run red lights?

They think they know better than the law, like motorists who exceed speed limits.

If they were better cyclists then they would be able to adjust their cycling prior to the junction so that they could remain safe and within the law.

Random Vince

bigmug wrote:

Do they think only Kryptonite can hurt them? :evil:

i've an EV3000 i could lob at one, that'd hurt them!

(kryptonite make bike locks)

Parkey

I'm afraid it doesn't say "well I reckon" anywhere in the highway code.

Rules are rules. Doesn't matter how much you can rationalise your behaviour to yourself, the rule exists and it exists for a reason.

So if the lights say stop, STOP.

That's my position anyway.

OffTheBackAdam

I was pleased to see the police fining the cyclists who were seen running red lights on that tv programme last weekend.
I've run them on my bike, but only when they're stuck on red, because there's not enough metal in my bike to make them change and there's no traffic or pedestrians about.
I'd do the same in the car too.

iainment

Parkey wrote:

I'm afraid it doesn't say "well I reckon" anywhere in the highway code.

Rules are rules. Doesn't matter how much you can rationalise your behaviour to yourself, the rule exists and it exists for a reason.

So if the lights say stop, STOP.

That's my position anyway.

What an apt name you have.

:twisted:

meagain

"sometimes i think it's FAR SAFER to go through a red light "

Aye and when you get wiped by an artic whose driver makes the same claim I'm sure that your final thoughts will be ones of understanding and a sense of "fair enough".

squired

The problem is that people see others who go through lights because they think it is safer (and doing so carefully). These people then think it is ok for them to do it, but they don't go through safely or carefully.

johnnyhotdog

meagain wrote:

"sometimes i think it's FAR SAFER to go through a red light "

Aye and when you get wiped by an artic whose driver makes the same claim I'm sure that your final thoughts will be ones of understanding and a sense of "fair enough".

i wouldn't go through if anything else was coming. obviously.

mostly, i just slow down and take it easy until the lights change to green and carry on through like that.

if they are at red, as i arrive, i slow down, sometimes stop if necessary, to allow adequate time to assess the situation and if it safer to do so (including but not limited to the reasons i have given above,) go through. if not, or there is no reason to get ahead of the traffic, i wait for the green.

i don't race through without any forethought, like some people do. i carefully consider my options and choose whatever is safer for me.

it's not a question of losing momentum or getting there quicker or pulling one over on car drivers. it's a question, for me, of my safety.

it is against the law and it will always be against the law. i don't make any excuses for that - i do what's right for me, everyone else does what's right for them.

Shadowduck

Funny that, I always stop on red and have never once felt endangered by doing so... As someone else said already, if you feel you're putting yourself in danger by obeying traffic laws then something's going wrong!

The whole "it's safer that way 'cos I'm careful" argument sounds very reminiscent of the reasons some drivers give why it's ok for them (not anyone else, obviously) to exceed the speed limits. Again, as has been pointed out already, traffic laws are not a matter of opinion.

The worst thing about red light jumping isn't the relative danger, or lack of it, it's the damage it does to the reputation of cycling as a whole. Maybe that driver who gets annoyed at YOU for jumping the red light will decide to pass ME extra fast and extra close by way of retribution...

johnnyhotdog

i don't think it can be compared to speeding drivers - people driving outwith their capabilities and their cars capabilities with little or no time to react if something goes wrong.

if a driver is willing to endanger you, for getting annoyed at me, for going through a red light, he or she has deeper issues that need to be looked at that can't be attributed to me.

when i'm cycling i am polite and courteous to all other road users, even when they are not so kind to me.

i have cycled and/or commuted regularly in three uk cities and i have to admit, some are better than others for cycle safety. i have never felt i had to go through a red light in glasgow, and never did. newcastle was hit and miss depending on where you were and leeds, where i now live is sometimes quite frightening.



i have also cycled in copenhagen, where the attitude to cyclists is far better and i didn't go through any red lights at all because it was never necessary.

meagain

"i don't think it can be compared to speeding drivers "

Clearly a stranger to rigorous logical thinking then. Your reasoning (I know best what is safe FOR ME, I don't need anyone to tell me how to behave for the greater good) is in all essentials absolutely identical to that of the speeding driver.

johnnyhotdog

meagain wrote:

"i don't think it can be compared to speeding drivers "

Clearly a stranger to rigorous logical thinking then. Your reasoning (I know best what is safe FOR ME, I don't need anyone to tell me how to behave for the greater good) is in all essentials absolutely identical to that of the speeding driver.

please don't resort to insults.

i knew it was going to turn into a bashing session - i was warned that bike radar could be a bit "schoolyard," but i am simply explaining what i do and why i do it, with some examples. i am NOT putting anyone else at risk, not even myself when i go through a red light. a speeding driver is not only putting themselves at risk, but others around them. please stop using that analogy. it doesn't work.

of all accidents that involve cyclists, 90% occur in urban areas and 75% happen at, or near, a road junction. i use foresight and judgement in order to be clear of any risk when the jostling for road position and lane changes start. i cycle within my capabilities at all times.

if you stop at every single red light and wait, and never, ever break the law than that is fine by me. i go through red lights as a method of self preservation.

Parkey

No offence, but I think that the "It's safer to go through a red light" argument is merely the self-rationalisation of levels of impatience and complacency that people don't want to own up to, even to themselves.

I've seen speeding motorists rationalise that driving at 40mph is safer than 30mph because they reckon at what they call "artificially low speeds for a particular road" because a less than optimal driver workload will cause the attention to wander. Actually, no; they're impatient, they're complacent, and they're a hazard.

Shadowduck

johnnyhotdog wrote:

i don't think it can be compared to speeding drivers - people driving outwith their capabilities and their cars capabilities with little or no time to react if something goes wrong.

I wasn't comparing the bad behaviour, I was comparing the excuse given.

johnnyhotdog wrote:

if a driver is willing to endanger you, for getting annoyed at me, for going through a red light, he or she has deeper issues that need to be looked at that can't be attributed to me.

Just to get this clear, you claim the consequences of your actions can't be attributed to you? The fact that you, by jumping red lights, are likely increasing anti-cycling sentiment among the motoring population isn't your fault? It's bad behaviour of this sort that adds fuel to the anti-cycling bigot's fire - YOU are commiting the act, YOU are responsible for the outcome, intended or otherwise. Unless you're so naive as to assume all drivers are saints who would never develop an irrational dislike of all cyclists based on the actions of a self-centred minority?

johnnyhotdog wrote:

please don't resort to insults.

i knew it was going to turn into a bashing session - i was warned that bike radar could be a bit "schoolyard," ... *snip*

"Please don't resort to insults", said johnnyhotdog, then immediately resorted to insults. :roll:

iainment

Shadowduck wrote:

johnnyhotdog wrote:

i don't think it can be compared to speeding drivers - people driving outwith their capabilities and their cars capabilities with little or no time to react if something goes wrong.

Just to get this clear, you claim the consequences of your actions can't be attributed to you? The fact that you, by jumping red lights, are likely increasing anti-cycling sentiment among the motoring population isn't your fault? It's bad behaviour of this sort that adds fuel to the anti-cycling bigot's fire - YOU are commiting the act, YOU are responsible for the outcome, intended or otherwise. Unless you're so naive as to assume all drivers are saints who would never develop an irrational dislike of all cyclists based on the actions of a self-centred minority?

johnnyhotdog wrote:

please don't resort to insults.

i knew it was going to turn into a bashing session - i was warned that bike radar could be a bit "schoolyard," ... *snip*

"Please don't resort to insults", said johnnyhotdog, then immediately resorted to insults. :roll:

What evidence do you have that motorists would love cyclists if all cyclists obeyed all traffic regulations/laws at all times. I think that you are deluded, motorists need other road users that are in their perception further down the pecking order to be aggressive toward. It doesn't make any difference to them if you obey the rules or not. There is a certain percentage of motorists who will always be agrressive toward cyclists (and pedestrians) on"their" road - in the same way that there is a certain proportion of cyclists who strive to make everyone fit in their definition of a cyclist. This including what equipment s/b used, what clothing is acceptable etc. BTW often these paragons of virtue recommending assaulting miscreant drivers or criminally damaging their vehicles.
I do jump red lights in a way that satisfies my perception of what is and is not dangerous and will continue to do so if I see fit. The "it's the law and must be obeyed" crew actually make me more likely to jump the light as I know it winds them up and generates some quite amusing self righteous bleating from them.

Pip Pip.

:twisted:

bigmug

."....... or cause any other traffic any concerns over my behaviour".

Well sorry, but you have certainly caused some concern on here, and it was out of concern for ALL road users (cyclists in particular) that I had a rant. It just is not possible to assume all the drivers who noticed you going through a red light performed the same rationalisation as you - did you stop them all and sample their views?

Great that we all can express and sometimes act on our individual views, but the roads are one situation where it only works if we all stick to the rules.

bigmug

..... and I can't work the quote thing!!

Shadowduck

iainment wrote:

What evidence do you have that motorists would love cyclists if all cyclists obeyed all traffic regulations/laws at all times.

I didn't suggest that was the case.* My point is that flouting traffic laws can only serve to increase the friction between cyclists and other road users.

I don't disagree at all with the points you make regarding the attitude of some car drivers to cyclists, I just don't see any point making matters worse for the sake of saving a few seconds and a bit of momentum (at least you're honest enough not to pretend you do it for safety).

In other news, the "it's the law and must be obeyed" crew is more commonly known as "civilisation". Many people think it's quite a good idea.

Toodle Pip

:P

*The debating technique you were trying to use is known as a "Strawman". You'll have to do better than that.

Random Vince

johnnyhotdog wrote:

meagain wrote:

"sometimes i think it's FAR SAFER to go through a red light "

Aye and when you get wiped by an artic whose driver makes the same claim I'm sure that your final thoughts will be ones of understanding and a sense of "fair enough".

i wouldn't go through if anything else was coming. obviously.

mostly, i just slow down and take it easy until the lights change to green and carry on through like that.

if they are at red, as i arrive, i slow down, sometimes stop if necessary, to allow adequate time to assess the situation and if it safer to do so (including but not limited to the reasons i have given above,) go through. if not, or there is no reason to get ahead of the traffic, i wait for the green.

i don't race through without any forethought, like some people do. i carefully consider my options and choose whatever is safer for me.

it's not a question of losing momentum or getting there quicker or pulling one over on car drivers. it's a question, for me, of my safety.

it is against the law and it will always be against the law. i don't make any excuses for that - i do what's right for me, everyone else does what's right for them.

are you trying to say, that at some times you go over the stop line and wait there instead of being allong side a truck?

johnnyhotdog

bigmug wrote:

..... and I can't work the quote thing!!

i think i've cracked the quotes!

i only do what's safer for me at the time. i have had two "accidents," whilst cycling - both at junctions, both because i waited at a red light when i could have and in hindsight should have, cycled ahead. one was a skip lorry gently nudging me out the way (and into oncoming traffic) in order to get past , another was a lady in a nice 4x4 pushing me into a rather high curb to go round someone turning right.

i might do it once a week, maybe not for months but if i feel it would be safer then i go through. if every other road user obeyed the rules, i wouldn't have to jump the lights. i've said before why i do it and given examples. maybe everyone on here is a perfect cyclist. maybe everyone live in a village/town/city that's perfect for cyclists with perfect drivers. i don't

at the moment i'm cycling in and around barrow-in-furness - there are no junctions or sets of lights where i would run into problems, so i stop at them all and wait.

i apologise for the schoolyard comment - i feel that people are only taking from my posts the bits they feel they can pick on rather than look at the whole picture. i knew i'd be an easy target so i should have seen what was coming!

i make no apologies for wanting to live.

my actions do not suddenly cause an otherwise perfect law abiding driver to suddenly turn into a homocidal maniac - they were probably like that already.

johnnyhotdog

Random Vince wrote:

are you trying to say, that at some times you go over the stop line and wait there instead of being allong side a truck?

i always do this. with any large vehicle.

1. so the driver is aware i'm there.

2. if they're turning left, often they don't signal until they move off.

3. they're usually on the ASL anyway!

Shadowduck

johnnyhotdog wrote:

Random Vince wrote:

are you trying to say, that at some times you go over the stop line and wait there instead of being allong side a truck?

i always do this. with any large vehicle.

That, I have to say, I would not personally count as jumping the red. I'd generally wait behind the large vehicle (that way it doesn't have to overtake me!), and if first to the lights I'd be in primary position so no large vehicles could pull up next to me, but nonetheless I can see how sliding forward a little could enhance safety in that situation. It's probably even legal, given that you're doing it to protect yourself from a clearly dangerous state of affairs!

Jumping the red to me means actually crossing the junction under a red light, which I've seen many cyclists do. If that's not what you're talking about, johnnyhotdog, please ignore my previous comments!

redddraggon

I've just watched Road Rage for the first time. I'd heard a lot about RLJing from the Londoners on here - but I didn't think people actually jumped the lights when it's chocker with traffic like on the documentary.

I always feel a bit guilty if I go through the lights - today I was going at a fair whack and as I went over the stop line the lights turned to orange - how can they expect you to stop in the wet while turning a corner? But to be fair my front wheel was over the line when it changed - am I expected to stop anyway?

meagain

"i do what's right for me, everyone else does what's right for them."

So THAT'S why society has sunk to its current parlous state.

No further comment forthcoming or necessary.

johnnyhotdog

meagain wrote:

"i do what's right for me, everyone else does what's right for them."

So THAT'S why society has sunk to its current parlous state.

No further comment forthcoming or necessary.

there is absoloutely no need for that. i was referring, as you know, to people that choose to stop at every red light. i knew i was possibly going to get a hard time but thought it might be an interesting debate.

i believe you are what is known as a troll:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

i saw the road rage programme and i'm pleased those cyclists got fined - every single one ran a red light at speed without regard as to what might happen - i don't do that. ever.

if you can't be bothered to actually read my posts in full - perhaps you can't see them properly from your high horse - instead of cherry picking and paraphrasing please don't respond.

my guess is you are either unemployed, retired or have an entirely unfulfilling job. either way, you have far too much time on your hands if you are so worried about me.

i am quite happy to have a debate on pretty much anything but don't need you or anyone else making disparaging remarks about my contributions or worth to society.

perhaps this forum would be more to your liking:

http://www.grumpyoldwomenlive.co.uk/forum

i'm sure there's plent of hand wringing there for you to really get your teeth into.

richardast

johnnyhotdog wrote:

i believe you are what is known as a troll:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

Wikipedia wrote:

An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response.

johnnyhotdog then wrote:

if you can't be bothered to actually read my posts in full - perhaps you can't see them properly from your high horse - instead of cherry picking and paraphrasing please don't respond.

my guess is you are either unemployed, retired or have an entirely unfulfilling job. either way, you have far too much time on your hands if you are so worried about me.

perhaps this forum would be more to your liking:

www.grumpyoldwomenlive.co.uk/forum

i'm sure there's plent of hand wringing there for you to really get your teeth into.

Johnnyhotdog. Are you an ironic genius? Or not?

This is like an episode of Trisha.

johnnyhotdog

richardast wrote:

Johnnyhotdog. Are you an ironic genius? Or not?

This is like an episode of Trisha.

not. :oops:

i fed the troll!

redddraggon

HungryCol

If you squint really hard coming up to a signalled junction you can almost make out the red light to be green. Personally I don't do this. I close my eyes and yell hoping that I make it in one piece to the other side of the junction. I'm still here so it seems to have worked so far bit like Russian Roulette.