Red means STOP

Random Vince

pst88 wrote:

Well I went through a red light today. I don't normally but this time I did and I honestly believe it was in my best interests. On my commute there's this cycle lane that runs up the middle of 2 lanes of traffic travelling in the same direction, so I rode up that passing all the cars waiting at the lights. When I got to the front there were 2 HGVs either side of me, stopped in the advanced stop area. It's always hairy pulling away from there when the cars are behind the line but with 2 HGVs either side of me across the stop line I wasn't going to stick about and get squished.

stop behind the HGV's, simple

bigmug

Wot a debate from a simple rant!!

Now, from our chief proponent of jumpinmg red lights we have the original I'll go on red if I consider it safer, to a few posts later, easing over the stop line on red, to the last one of 'taking an early green'

Great, I can agree with that, in fact I find it quite easy to outsprint most motor vehicles for the first 20 metres or so from an 'early green' - particularly the big ones, so I'm usually across before they have let the clutch out.

Oh but beware that idiot (conveyance unidentified) whos jumping red coming the other way!

alfablue

Red light jumping is surely the most often cited criticism of cyclists, and rightly or wrongly, this frequently observed behaviour is a constant reminder to other road users why they must despise cyclists. If you do it, you are doing cycling and cyclists a great disservice that even us law abiding cyclists suffer from....so thanks for that!!!!!

I don't buy any of the safety rationalisations for RLJ'ing, as suggested above, if you need to RLJ to be safer, then there is something (else) wrong with your cycling skills / road craft.

iainment

alfablue wrote:

Red light jumping is surely the most often cited criticism of cyclists, and rightly or wrongly, this frequently observed behaviour is a constant reminder to other road users why they must despise cyclists. If you do it, you are doing cycling and cyclists a great disservice that even us law abiding cyclists suffer from....so thanks for that!!!!!
I don't buy any of the safety rationalisations for RLJ'ing, as suggested above, if you need to RLJ to be safer, then there is something (else) wrong with your cycling skills / road craft.

My pleasure sir.

:twisted:

Shadowduck

iainment wrote:

alfablue wrote:

Red light jumping is surely the most often cited criticism of cyclists, and rightly or wrongly, this frequently observed behaviour is a constant reminder to other road users why they must despise cyclists. If you do it, you are doing cycling and cyclists a great disservice that even us law abiding cyclists suffer from....so thanks for that!!!!!
I don't buy any of the safety rationalisations for RLJ'ing, as suggested above, if you need to RLJ to be safer, then there is something (else) wrong with your cycling skills / road craft.

My pleasure sir.

:twisted:

Well, the RLJers may have run out of excuses but it's nice to see their sarcasm glands are still in full working order... :roll:

iainment

Shadowduck wrote:

iainment wrote:

alfablue wrote:

Red light jumping is surely the most often cited criticism of cyclists, and rightly or wrongly, this frequently observed behaviour is a constant reminder to other road users why they must despise cyclists. If you do it, you are doing cycling and cyclists a great disservice that even us law abiding cyclists suffer from....so thanks for that!!!!!
I don't buy any of the safety rationalisations for RLJ'ing, as suggested above, if you need to RLJ to be safer, then there is something (else) wrong with your cycling skills / road craft.

My pleasure sir.

:twisted:

Well, the RLJers may have run out of excuses but it's nice to see their sarcasm glands are still in full working order... :roll:

and thank you kindly as well.

:twisted:

iainment

For what it's worth my attitude to lights is as follows

Red = Be very alert, probably have to stop, but if clear and no danger to me or other road users proceed.

Red/amber. = as above.

Green = Be very alert, probably can proceed but keep eyes peeled for danger. Stop if necessary.

Amber = Be very alert, probably have to stop, but if way clear and no danger to me or other road users proceed.

It works for me, just sayin.......

:twisted:

Shadowduck

iainment - I just had a look at your past posts and going off the first couple of pages about 90% of your comments on here are related to RLJing. Your sig line is also related to RLJing.

Obsessive, or just a chip on the shoulder?

It's clearly pointless trying to convince you of the error of your ways, since all evidence suggests you ride a bike purely so that you can RLJ.

*sigh*

iainment

Shadowduck wrote:

iainment - I just had a look at your past posts and going off the first couple of pages about 90% of your comments on here are related to RLJing. Your sig line is also related to RLJing.

Obsessive, or just a chip on the shoulder?

It's clearly pointless trying to convince you of the error of your ways, since all evidence suggests you ride a bike purely so that you can RLJ.

*sigh*

No I cycle to get from a-b, it's my transport of choice and I do stop at red lights but I don't stop at all of them.

The RLJ thing is just a response to the sanctimonious verbiage that some spout about it. I respond to that which effects and amuses me.

I'm sad that there is more energy expended by some on here against other cyclists rather than against the real threats to cyclists.

:twisted:

alfablue

iainment wrote:

Shadowduck wrote:

iainment - I just had a look at your past posts and going off the first couple of pages about 90% of your comments on here are related to RLJing. Your sig line is also related to RLJing.

Obsessive, or just a chip on the shoulder?

It's clearly pointless trying to convince you of the error of your ways, since all evidence suggests you ride a bike purely so that you can RLJ.

*sigh*

No I cycle to get from a-b, it's my transport of choice and I do stop at red lights but I don't stop at all of them.

The RLJ thing is just a response to the sanctimonious verbiage that some spout about it. I respond to that which effects and amuses me.

I'm sad that there is more energy expended by some on here against other cyclists rather than against the real threats to cyclists.

:twisted:

I don't believe I am sanctimonious about this (well, no more than the law is sanctimonious), and I believe that what you are doing is a greater wrong against cyclists than any views exchanged on this forum - I'm glad it amuses you though (or am I :? ?).

A real threat to cyclists is the disrespect and lack of care offered by car drivers who are pi**ed off with RLJ'ers!

dnsmiff

alfablue wrote:

A real threat to cyclists is the disrespect and lack of care offered by car drivers who are pi**ed off with RLJ'ers!

OK this morning going to work I seriously thought about trying to negotiate the lights, then common sense got the better of me and I took my route along the pavement avoiding the lights altogether.

I thought I'd get some opinions on this particular stretch of road in work, in-case I was offending any motorists and the view was I would be mad to try to cycle though the lights and they saw no problem in what I was doing. (What does p*$$ them off is RLJ at pedestrian crossings etc – mainly in towns and cities)

I have been commuting daily on this stretch of road for about 3 years and I feel just as intimidated by it now as I did when I first started cycling - in fact I'm probably more fearful now than when I first started following experience.

I know that all of the above is unlikely to change peoples opinions on here but I’m sorry you are not going to convince me it is safer for me to try to ride though this particular junction.

Shadowduck

dnsmiff wrote:

I know that all of the above is unlikely to change peoples opinions on here but I’m sorry you are not going to convince me it is safer for me to try to ride though this particular junction.

I'm not so sure anyone was trying to... I would certainly make a large distinction between a cyclist completely avoiding what sounds like a very dangerous junction and taking a safer route, as you do, and somebody flagrantly ignoring the traffic signals to cross a junction / pedestrian crossing under a red light because they think they know better, as some riders do. Not the same thing at all. From the sounds of it, the motorists at your workplace see a similar distinction.

Arguably you should push for the period you're on the pavement, but that's a debate for a different thread. Personally I'd push if there were any pedestrians about and ride slowly if I couldn't see any.

Crapaud

alfablue wrote:

I don't believe I am sanctimonious about this (well, no more than the law is sanctimonious), and I believe that what you are doing is a greater wrong against cyclists than any views exchanged on this forum - I'm glad it amuses you though (or am I :? ?).

A real threat to cyclists is the disrespect and lack of care offered by car drivers who are pi**ed off with RLJ'ers!

+1

[clapping smiley ]

Mark Alexander

I don't think that you should do anything on your bike that you wouldn't want your kid to do (or see you doing).

I don't have children. dooes that include what you wouldn't want your parents to know you're doing s well?

Shadowduck

Mark Alexander wrote:

I don't have children. dooes that include what you wouldn't want your parents to know you're doing s well?

I think we can probably extend it to anyone you wouldn't swear in front of!

johnnyhotdog

Shadowduck wrote:

Personally I'd push if there were any pedestrians about and ride slowly if I couldn't see any.

Shadowduck wrote:

The worst thing about riding on the pavement isn't the relative danger, or lack of it, it's the damage it does to the reputation of cycling as a whole. Maybe that driver who gets annoyed at YOU for riding on the pavement will decide to pass ME extra fast and extra close by way of retribution...

Shadowduck wrote:

Just to get this clear, you claim the consequences of your actions can't be attributed to you? The fact that you, by riding on the pavement, are likely increasing anti-cycling sentiment among the motoring population isn't your fault? It's bad behaviour of this sort that adds fuel to the anti-cycling bigot's fire - YOU are commiting the act, YOU are responsible for the outcome, intended or otherwise. Unless you're so naive as to assume all drivers are saints who would never develop an irrational dislike of all cyclists based on the actions of a self-centred minority?

alfablue wrote:

A real threat to cyclists is the disrespect and lack of care offered by car drivers who are pi**ed off with people who ride on pavements!

:shock:


in something not entirely unrelated:

Shadowduck wrote:

In other news, the "it's the law and must be obeyed" crew is more commonly known as "civilisation". Many people think it's quite a good idea.

on another area of the forum, two law breakers are being hailed as heroes. they broke the law only for reasons of self gratification and self publication yet nobody seems to want to jump down their throats nor the throats of the people who idolise them. why not?

*Shadowduck - i'm not picking on you personally - i don't know you - i'm sure if i did, we'd get along just fine.

iainment

johnnyhotdog wrote:

Shadowduck wrote:

Personally I'd push if there were any pedestrians about and ride slowly if I couldn't see any.

Shadowduck wrote:

The worst thing about riding on the pavement isn't the relative danger, or lack of it, it's the damage it does to the reputation of cycling as a whole. Maybe that driver who gets annoyed at YOU for riding on the pavement will decide to pass ME extra fast and extra close by way of retribution...

Shadowduck wrote:

Just to get this clear, you claim the consequences of your actions can't be attributed to you? The fact that you, by riding on the pavement, are likely increasing anti-cycling sentiment among the motoring population isn't your fault? It's bad behaviour of this sort that adds fuel to the anti-cycling bigot's fire - YOU are commiting the act, YOU are responsible for the outcome, intended or otherwise. Unless you're so naive as to assume all drivers are saints who would never develop an irrational dislike of all cyclists based on the actions of a self-centred minority?

alfablue wrote:

A real threat to cyclists is the disrespect and lack of care offered by car drivers who are pi**ed off with people who ride on pavements!

:shock:


in something not entirely unrelated:

Shadowduck wrote:

In other news, the "it's the law and must be obeyed" crew is more commonly known as "civilisation". Many people think it's quite a good idea.

on another area of the forum, two law breakers are being hailed as heroes. they broke the law only for reasons of self gratification and self publication yet nobody seems to want to jump down their throats nor the throats of the people who idolise them. why not?

*Shadowduck - i'm not picking on you personally - i don't know you - i'm sure if i did, we'd get along just fine.

Who are they and what did they do?

:twisted:

alfablue

johnnyhotdog wrote:

alfablue wrote:

A real threat to cyclists is the disrespect and lack of care offered by car drivers who are pi**ed off with people who ride on pavements!

PLEASE do not misquote me!!!

iainment

alfablue wrote:

johnnyhotdog wrote:

alfablue wrote:

A real threat to cyclists is the disrespect and lack of care offered by car drivers who are pi**ed off with people who ride on pavements!

PLEASE do not misquote me!!!

so does that mean you don't mind pavement cyclists? or just don't like misquotes.

Jon G

Dunedin397 wrote:

It's lunacy to think that you can break the rules of the road, ie the law, that's it's alright for you because you're on a bicycle.

It's worse - it's falling for, and supporting, the car-cult's propaganda that cyclists are not real road users. Real road users follow the rules of the road. Kids playing with toys on the pavement don't.

iainment

Jon G wrote:

Dunedin397 wrote:

It's lunacy to think that you can break the rules of the road, ie the law, that's it's alright for you because you're on a bicycle.

It's worse - it's falling for, and supporting, the car-cult's propaganda that cyclists are not real road users. Real road users follow the rules of the road. Kids playing with toys on the pavement don't.

So that's most car drivers then as well. Motes and beams and all that.....

:twisted:

alfablue

iainment wrote:

alfablue wrote:

johnnyhotdog wrote:

alfablue wrote:

A real threat to cyclists is the disrespect and lack of care offered by car drivers who are pi**ed off with people who ride on pavements!

PLEASE do not misquote me!!!

so does that mean you don't mind pavement cyclists? or just don't like misquotes.

It is just devious to misquote someone to help make some point, it totally invalidates that point and as the one being misquoted I feel used

gtvlusso

Depends on the type of junction and how well you know the road and the type of traffic (commuters or Sunday idiots). As a keem motorcyclist I refute the previous statement that we all speed - Yes, I ride a fast motorbike (A Ducati) - I also drive a powerful car!, yes I cycle through red lights when I have assessed the situation - yes, I am not interested in anyone elses opinion - I am polite and apologetic to other road users if I have caused an issue or scared someone (I try to avoid this). And I simply do not respond to abusive tw*ts (or I blow them a kiss!). Why can't we just get on with it in our own ways and accept the consequences of our actions (hopefully those actions do not affect other people!). After all even if we all di what the book said and the law said people would still crash and get hurt - no one is perfect!
After all - barely anything is legal on Bristish roads...And people can manipulate stats to say what they wish them to say (Brake - road safety lobbyists).

karate monkey

I go through red lights without wearing a helmet.

Shadowduck

johnnyhotdog wrote:

Shadowduck wrote:

The worst thing about riding on the pavement isn't the relative danger, or lack of it, it's the damage it does to the reputation of cycling as a whole. Maybe that driver who gets annoyed at YOU for riding on the pavement will decide to pass ME extra fast and extra close by way of retribution...

Shadowduck wrote:

Just to get this clear, you claim the consequences of your actions can't be attributed to you? The fact that you, by riding on the pavement, are likely increasing anti-cycling sentiment among the motoring population isn't your fault? It's bad behaviour of this sort that adds fuel to the anti-cycling bigot's fire - YOU are commiting the act, YOU are responsible for the outcome, intended or otherwise. Unless you're so naive as to assume all drivers are saints who would never develop an irrational dislike of all cyclists based on the actions of a self-centred minority?

Except that Shadowduck didn't actually write either of those things. :roll:

johnnyhotdog wrote:

i'm delighted that I'm a perfect cyclist with godlike powers of observation and the ability to disregard traffic laws at will. i really am.

i wish your cyclecraft was up to my lofty standards.

fortunately, after 12 years of obeying the lights, i discovered that the law doesn't apply to me, only the other subhuman losers on the road

for me "cyclecraft," is unnecessary. i have ascended to a higher plane. my road holding is second to none and all other road users should cower before me.

I am in NO hurry. please do not try to belittle my actions as those of someone who is time deficient.

sadly, the majority of road users are far below my physical and intellectual prowess. this will be my last post on this subject - my sanctimony is overwhelming. you will never be able to compete nor debate ( in the purest sense of the word,) with such perfection.


"i LOVE THE SMELL OF SANCTIMONY IN THE MORNING!"

Ah, these childish games...

alfablue

gtvlusso - would that be a V6? Phase 2 or 3? Colour?

johnnyhotdog

alfablue wrote:

A real threat to cyclists is the disrespect and lack of care offered by car drivers who are pi**ed off with people....

who ride on pavements!

alfablue wrote:

It is just devious to misquote someone to help make some point, it totally invalidates that point and as the one being misquoted I feel used

apologies. i didn't mean to make you cry. my point was simply that it is not black or white. i assumed (wrongly - and we do know that to assume makes an ass out of u and me) that as the argument against is set as a black/white issue, that your quote would be easily interchanged to suit any scenario. :oops:

Shadowduck - my apologies to you too. perhaps you'll agree that it is not black/white, right/wrong.

...perhaps what we need is to actually listen to the people that go through red lights/feel they have to ride on the pavement and find out why.

...since the introduction of the traffic light system and the laws governing their use, roads and road users in the UK have changed dramatically and not for the better. traffic calming measures creating new pinch points, ill concieved one way systems, huge complicated signal controlled gyratories etc coupled with far busier roads and motorists with poor driving skills/ on the phone/ in a hurry does not make a nice environment to cycle in.

...once on the road, every situation is a conflict between users which must be resolved. i bit of give and take, if you will. if everyone on the road behaved as such and didn't watch tv/ use their phones/ force their way past/ signalled/ used thier mirrors i.e obeyed the law, there wouldn't be a problem. but they don't.

...i believe the government are busy suppressing a report which has found it is in fact safer to go through red lights than wait at them. some of the information has already been "leaked out," i believe they call it. you may recall reading about how more female cyclists are injured/killed compared to males because the are more likely to obey traffic lights. statistically, we're more likely to be killed waiting at a junction than at any other time. the big question is still why?

...i don't do it to be a "bad boy." because i'm in a hurry or because my cyclecraft isn't up to par as has been suggested nor do i go whizzing through every red light i see. i always give way to pedestrians, even when they don't have right of way and i'm always polite and courteous to ALL other road users.

...i don't like to see cyclists flying through reds without a second thought about what effect they'll have or forcing their way through pedestrians either. that is not what i'm about. i've explained before - i took the decision to pass through red lights after two incidents whilst waiting. until the second time, i had NEVER jumped a red.

...it was obvious after the first tirade against my post, that no one was actually going to read past the first sentence before launching their scathing attacks on me, my parentage, my intellect or my ability to ride a bicycle - my overall worth to society was even mentioned.

there's an interesting point made here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/avdb/news/uk/video/144000/bb/144950_16x9_bb.asx

perhaps, as we are all adults, it would make a good start point for discussion?

Shadowduck

johnnyhotdog wrote:

Shadowduck - my apologies to you too. perhaps you'll agree that it is not black/white, right/wrong.

Nothing ever is - earlier in the thread I differentiated between flagrant disregard for the law with an "I know better" attitude and sneaking over the line a couple of feet to avoid being flattened by a skip lorry. It's the former I have a problem with, not the latter.

I hope my mangling of your quote gave you a chuckle, but misquoting is a pretty low debating tactic which could get you into a lot of trouble...

johnnyhotdog wrote:

...perhaps what we need is to actually listen to the people that go through red lights/feel they have to ride on the pavement and find out why.

I don't personally feel it's ever necessary to go through a red light. I think it's understandable to sneak over the line a bit if you find yourself trapped between two large vehicles, but I also think it's possible to avoid that situation by either taking primary (if you're first to the lights) or waiting behind the large vehicles (if they get there first).

I also never ride on the pavement. If there was some point in my route where it was necessary to use a short section of pavement to avoid an extremely dangerous junction, I'd use it - on foot if there were pedestrians about but I doubt I'd dismount if the pavement was deserted, I'd just ride slowly. Again, I think there's a huge gulf between that and the habitual pavement cyclist, swerving round pedestrians at high speed and generally getting people's backs up.

johnnyhotdog wrote:

...since the introduction of the traffic light system and the laws governing their use, roads and road users in the UK have changed dramatically and not for the better. traffic calming measures creating new pinch points, ill concieved one way systems, huge complicated signal controlled gyratories etc coupled with far busier roads and motorists with poor driving skills/ on the phone/ in a hurry does not make a nice environment to cycle in.

No argument from me!

johnnyhotdog wrote:

...once on the road, every situation is a conflict between users which must be resolved. i bit of give and take, if you will. if everyone on the road behaved as such and didn't watch tv/ use their phones/ force their way past/ signalled/ used thier mirrors i.e obeyed the law, there wouldn't be a problem. but they don't.

I don't think every situation has to be a conflict, but I agree with your other points.

johnnyhotdog wrote:

...i believe the government are busy suppressing a report which has found it is in fact safer to go through red lights than wait at them. some of the information has already been "leaked out," i believe they call it. you may recall reading about how more female cyclists are injured/killed compared to males because the are more likely to obey traffic lights. statistically, we're more likely to be killed waiting at a junction than at any other time. the big question is still why?

From what I recall (please correct me if I'm wrong), most of those killed had positioned themselves in a narrow space to the left of a large vehicle. If I ever somehow did end up in that position, and I can't think how, then damn right I'd cross the stop line to get out of it! But I would never, ever choose to pass a large vehicle on the left or position myself on their left - it's just too dangerous.

johnnyhotdog wrote:

...i don't do it to be a "bad boy." because i'm in a hurry or because my cyclecraft isn't up to par as has been suggested nor do i go whizzing through every red light i see. i always give way to pedestrians, even when they don't have right of way and i'm always polite and courteous to ALL other road users.

...i don't like to see cyclists flying through reds without a second thought about what effect they'll have or forcing their way through pedestrians either. that is not what i'm about. i've explained before - i took the decision to pass through red lights after two incidents whilst waiting. until the second time, i had NEVER jumped a red.

I think we agree on more than we disagree on.

johnnyhotdog wrote:

...it was obvious after the first tirade against my post, that no one was actually going to read past the first sentence before launching their scathing attacks on me, my parentage, my intellect or my ability to ride a bicycle - my overall worth to society was even mentioned.

Earlier in the thread, when I realised you were talking about sneaking a couple of feet over the line not flying through the lights with total disregard, I said that you should ignore all my previous comments (none of which, I think, were insulting). Since then I've been arguing the toss with iainment (until I realised he was the RLJ troll), who does appear to be the kind of RLJer we both dislike.

johnnyhotdog wrote:

there's an interesting point made here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/avdb/news/uk/video/144000/bb/144950_16x9_bb.asx

perhaps, as we are all adults, it would make a good start point for discussion?

Unfortunately, the sound packed in a couple of minutes into the video, but I think I got the gist. There's a lot wrong with our roads, including, in many cases, traffic lights - that doesn't make it ok for a minority to ignore them completely.

As you say, maybe we can get things back on a grown-up footing now!

johnnyhotdog

Shadowduck wrote:

As you say, maybe we can get things back on a grown-up footing now!

it's an interesting debate and one which it would appear, we all enjoy.

p.s. - good work on the misquotations! i was busy too busy laughing before i realised i should be angry!

gtvlusso

Sadly, it is now an Audi RS4; Alfablue....Although I do miss my Alfa's - hence owning the Ducati! Anyway, I do more mileage on a bicycle than my car and motorbike put together - hence I can afford to own "gas guzzlers". At any cost, I am pretty relaxed on the road, most of the people who make stupid moves or are simply offensive are just scared and lack a bit of confidence in their ability or judgement. I always use a really rubbish bike for commuting, chances are you are going to get hit or hit someone when we are all out together!

Ultimately: Live with it - people will always break laws and rules and it is not your place (unless you are a Rozza) to get involved or tell someone how you would like it to be....If you had a go at me, I would probably ignore you and cycle off.

And 98% of motorcyclists are your friend!! Honestly!! Most of the guys I ride motorbikes with cycle too!