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BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

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  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 61,040 Lives Here

    rjsterry said:

    ddraver said:

    Has anyone got an unlocked copy of Fraser Nelson's - last of the Spectator Podcast hold outs - article in the Telegraph begins to realise that he backed the wrong horse..?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/25/right-support-brexit-global-britain-starting-wonder/

    Refresh and then stop loading almost straight away.

    Be warned though, it's just another "brexit was a good idea, but this version isn't" take.

    Yup, that's a decent summary.

    The next stage of acceptance will be to realise that no-one, even someone more industrious, honest and principled than Johnson would have been able to deliver those sunlit uplands, in a world which is not benign (or going to give anything away without reciprocal gain), and in which alliances with like-minded, geographically close neighbours is likely to be valuable to all parties overall, despite some loss of autonomy and the annoyances that that causes.

    At the moment, Fraser Nelson is checking Google for unicorn hunters with five-star ratings.
    Which stage of acceptance are you at?

    That it's happened, and it's shît.

    Out of interest, @TheBigBean, what stage of acceptance are you at that this might be just a little shîtter than you thought it might be? I do seem to remember you were quite bullish, even though you voted remain. Perhaps you didn't believe that we'd get the hard Brexit we've ended up with.

    Given the Tories have an 80-seat majority, and can get pretty much anything through parliament (see Paterson affair), shouldn't there be a bit more to show other than a few minor trade treaties rolled over from our EU days? Is it that the government is incompetent in following through on the treaty they signed, or is it that the whole project was flawed in the first place?

    Occam's Razor might be a good place to start...
    It doesn't really matter how I voted, and I have never said (or been asked) on this thread. The only thing that matters is that the UK collectively voted for Brexit, and I accepted that on the day of the result. I believe in self-determination above all else.

    The outcome was always likely to be what the UK now* has or a renegotiation followed by a another vote. The latter was ruled out quite quickly by the EU, so I'm not surprised by the current arrangement.

    Your issue is that of a vegetarian being served a steak. No matter the cut, the sauce or how long it is cooked, it will always be terrible to you. I'm much more of an omnivore and able to appreciate both meals.

    I think the NI outcome could have been better and I have repeatedly said so. Tailwindhome has my sympathy; however, by all accounts NI is booming under the protocol, so it is not all bad.

    *I know many won't agree and will post comments about promises to stay in the single market. The concept of "take back control" was fairly clear to me.
    To torture your metaphor, I'm happy to eat anything if it's nicely cooked and tasty. A beautiful fillet steak was promised, but there's no disguising the microwaved low-fat pork chop we've been served. It's edible, but that's about it.
    Voting for Brexit would also bring the apocalypse according to some. You took a view whether you believed any of these more extreme positions and voted accordingly. Others did too.
    Fairly sure the mainstream projections on the cost of Brexit have been remarkably spot on
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 22,352
    edited November 2021

    rjsterry said:

    ddraver said:

    Has anyone got an unlocked copy of Fraser Nelson's - last of the Spectator Podcast hold outs - article in the Telegraph begins to realise that he backed the wrong horse..?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/25/right-support-brexit-global-britain-starting-wonder/

    Refresh and then stop loading almost straight away.

    Be warned though, it's just another "brexit was a good idea, but this version isn't" take.

    Yup, that's a decent summary.

    The next stage of acceptance will be to realise that no-one, even someone more industrious, honest and principled than Johnson would have been able to deliver those sunlit uplands, in a world which is not benign (or going to give anything away without reciprocal gain), and in which alliances with like-minded, geographically close neighbours is likely to be valuable to all parties overall, despite some loss of autonomy and the annoyances that that causes.

    At the moment, Fraser Nelson is checking Google for unicorn hunters with five-star ratings.
    Which stage of acceptance are you at?

    That it's happened, and it's shît.

    Out of interest, @TheBigBean, what stage of acceptance are you at that this might be just a little shîtter than you thought it might be? I do seem to remember you were quite bullish, even though you voted remain. Perhaps you didn't believe that we'd get the hard Brexit we've ended up with.

    Given the Tories have an 80-seat majority, and can get pretty much anything through parliament (see Paterson affair), shouldn't there be a bit more to show other than a few minor trade treaties rolled over from our EU days? Is it that the government is incompetent in following through on the treaty they signed, or is it that the whole project was flawed in the first place?

    Occam's Razor might be a good place to start...
    It doesn't really matter how I voted, and I have never said (or been asked) on this thread. The only thing that matters is that the UK collectively voted for Brexit, and I accepted that on the day of the result. I believe in self-determination above all else.

    The outcome was always likely to be what the UK now* has or a renegotiation followed by a another vote. The latter was ruled out quite quickly by the EU, so I'm not surprised by the current arrangement.

    Your issue is that of a vegetarian being served a steak. No matter the cut, the sauce or how long it is cooked, it will always be terrible to you. I'm much more of an omnivore and able to appreciate both meals.

    I think the NI outcome could have been better and I have repeatedly said so. Tailwindhome has my sympathy; however, by all accounts NI is booming under the protocol, so it is not all bad.

    *I know many won't agree and will post comments about promises to stay in the single market. The concept of "take back control" was fairly clear to me.
    To torture your metaphor, I'm happy to eat anything if it's nicely cooked and tasty. A beautiful fillet steak was promised, but there's no disguising the microwaved low-fat pork chop we've been served. It's edible, but that's about it.
    Voting for Brexit would also bring the apocalypse according to some. You took a view whether you believed any of these more extreme positions and voted accordingly. Others did too.
    Not sure what you are driving at here. The reasons behind individuals' votes are water under the bridge now. And not really relevant to the muddled execution of that decision. Having decided to Leave, I think we could have made a much better job of it and done far more to mitigate the inevitable disruption that such a fundamental change brings.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • rjsterry said:

    rjsterry said:

    ddraver said:

    Has anyone got an unlocked copy of Fraser Nelson's - last of the Spectator Podcast hold outs - article in the Telegraph begins to realise that he backed the wrong horse..?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/25/right-support-brexit-global-britain-starting-wonder/

    Refresh and then stop loading almost straight away.

    Be warned though, it's just another "brexit was a good idea, but this version isn't" take.

    Yup, that's a decent summary.

    The next stage of acceptance will be to realise that no-one, even someone more industrious, honest and principled than Johnson would have been able to deliver those sunlit uplands, in a world which is not benign (or going to give anything away without reciprocal gain), and in which alliances with like-minded, geographically close neighbours is likely to be valuable to all parties overall, despite some loss of autonomy and the annoyances that that causes.

    At the moment, Fraser Nelson is checking Google for unicorn hunters with five-star ratings.
    Which stage of acceptance are you at?

    That it's happened, and it's shît.

    Out of interest, @TheBigBean, what stage of acceptance are you at that this might be just a little shîtter than you thought it might be? I do seem to remember you were quite bullish, even though you voted remain. Perhaps you didn't believe that we'd get the hard Brexit we've ended up with.

    Given the Tories have an 80-seat majority, and can get pretty much anything through parliament (see Paterson affair), shouldn't there be a bit more to show other than a few minor trade treaties rolled over from our EU days? Is it that the government is incompetent in following through on the treaty they signed, or is it that the whole project was flawed in the first place?

    Occam's Razor might be a good place to start...
    It doesn't really matter how I voted, and I have never said (or been asked) on this thread. The only thing that matters is that the UK collectively voted for Brexit, and I accepted that on the day of the result. I believe in self-determination above all else.

    The outcome was always likely to be what the UK now* has or a renegotiation followed by a another vote. The latter was ruled out quite quickly by the EU, so I'm not surprised by the current arrangement.

    Your issue is that of a vegetarian being served a steak. No matter the cut, the sauce or how long it is cooked, it will always be terrible to you. I'm much more of an omnivore and able to appreciate both meals.

    I think the NI outcome could have been better and I have repeatedly said so. Tailwindhome has my sympathy; however, by all accounts NI is booming under the protocol, so it is not all bad.

    *I know many won't agree and will post comments about promises to stay in the single market. The concept of "take back control" was fairly clear to me.
    To torture your metaphor, I'm happy to eat anything if it's nicely cooked and tasty. A beautiful fillet steak was promised, but there's no disguising the microwaved low-fat pork chop we've been served. It's edible, but that's about it.
    Voting for Brexit would also bring the apocalypse according to some. You took a view whether you believed any of these more extreme positions and voted accordingly. Others did too.
    Not sure what you are driving at here. The reasons behind individuals' votes are water under the bridge now. And not really relevant to the muddled execution of that decision. Having decided to Leave, I think we could have made a much better job of it and done far more to mitigate the inevitable disruption that such a fundamental change brings.
    When you have spent decades promising sunlit uplands it would be a severe knock to the pride to start announcing plans to mitigate disruption. Fundamentally each plan would be highlighting a benefit of EU membership.
  • briantrumpetbriantrumpet Posts: 10,200

    rjsterry said:

    rjsterry said:

    ddraver said:

    Has anyone got an unlocked copy of Fraser Nelson's - last of the Spectator Podcast hold outs - article in the Telegraph begins to realise that he backed the wrong horse..?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/25/right-support-brexit-global-britain-starting-wonder/

    Refresh and then stop loading almost straight away.

    Be warned though, it's just another "brexit was a good idea, but this version isn't" take.

    Yup, that's a decent summary.

    The next stage of acceptance will be to realise that no-one, even someone more industrious, honest and principled than Johnson would have been able to deliver those sunlit uplands, in a world which is not benign (or going to give anything away without reciprocal gain), and in which alliances with like-minded, geographically close neighbours is likely to be valuable to all parties overall, despite some loss of autonomy and the annoyances that that causes.

    At the moment, Fraser Nelson is checking Google for unicorn hunters with five-star ratings.
    Which stage of acceptance are you at?

    That it's happened, and it's shît.

    Out of interest, @TheBigBean, what stage of acceptance are you at that this might be just a little shîtter than you thought it might be? I do seem to remember you were quite bullish, even though you voted remain. Perhaps you didn't believe that we'd get the hard Brexit we've ended up with.

    Given the Tories have an 80-seat majority, and can get pretty much anything through parliament (see Paterson affair), shouldn't there be a bit more to show other than a few minor trade treaties rolled over from our EU days? Is it that the government is incompetent in following through on the treaty they signed, or is it that the whole project was flawed in the first place?

    Occam's Razor might be a good place to start...
    It doesn't really matter how I voted, and I have never said (or been asked) on this thread. The only thing that matters is that the UK collectively voted for Brexit, and I accepted that on the day of the result. I believe in self-determination above all else.

    The outcome was always likely to be what the UK now* has or a renegotiation followed by a another vote. The latter was ruled out quite quickly by the EU, so I'm not surprised by the current arrangement.

    Your issue is that of a vegetarian being served a steak. No matter the cut, the sauce or how long it is cooked, it will always be terrible to you. I'm much more of an omnivore and able to appreciate both meals.

    I think the NI outcome could have been better and I have repeatedly said so. Tailwindhome has my sympathy; however, by all accounts NI is booming under the protocol, so it is not all bad.

    *I know many won't agree and will post comments about promises to stay in the single market. The concept of "take back control" was fairly clear to me.
    To torture your metaphor, I'm happy to eat anything if it's nicely cooked and tasty. A beautiful fillet steak was promised, but there's no disguising the microwaved low-fat pork chop we've been served. It's edible, but that's about it.
    Voting for Brexit would also bring the apocalypse according to some. You took a view whether you believed any of these more extreme positions and voted accordingly. Others did too.
    Not sure what you are driving at here. The reasons behind individuals' votes are water under the bridge now. And not really relevant to the muddled execution of that decision. Having decided to Leave, I think we could have made a much better job of it and done far more to mitigate the inevitable disruption that such a fundamental change brings.
    When you have spent decades promising sunlit uplands it would be a severe knock to the pride to start announcing plans to mitigate disruption. Fundamentally each plan would be highlighting a benefit of EU membership.

    So the plan is not to make any mitigation plans, and to keep on blaming the EU?

  • pangolinpangolin Posts: 4,518

    rjsterry said:

    rjsterry said:

    ddraver said:

    Has anyone got an unlocked copy of Fraser Nelson's - last of the Spectator Podcast hold outs - article in the Telegraph begins to realise that he backed the wrong horse..?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/25/right-support-brexit-global-britain-starting-wonder/

    Refresh and then stop loading almost straight away.

    Be warned though, it's just another "brexit was a good idea, but this version isn't" take.

    Yup, that's a decent summary.

    The next stage of acceptance will be to realise that no-one, even someone more industrious, honest and principled than Johnson would have been able to deliver those sunlit uplands, in a world which is not benign (or going to give anything away without reciprocal gain), and in which alliances with like-minded, geographically close neighbours is likely to be valuable to all parties overall, despite some loss of autonomy and the annoyances that that causes.

    At the moment, Fraser Nelson is checking Google for unicorn hunters with five-star ratings.
    Which stage of acceptance are you at?

    That it's happened, and it's shît.

    Out of interest, @TheBigBean, what stage of acceptance are you at that this might be just a little shîtter than you thought it might be? I do seem to remember you were quite bullish, even though you voted remain. Perhaps you didn't believe that we'd get the hard Brexit we've ended up with.

    Given the Tories have an 80-seat majority, and can get pretty much anything through parliament (see Paterson affair), shouldn't there be a bit more to show other than a few minor trade treaties rolled over from our EU days? Is it that the government is incompetent in following through on the treaty they signed, or is it that the whole project was flawed in the first place?

    Occam's Razor might be a good place to start...
    It doesn't really matter how I voted, and I have never said (or been asked) on this thread. The only thing that matters is that the UK collectively voted for Brexit, and I accepted that on the day of the result. I believe in self-determination above all else.

    The outcome was always likely to be what the UK now* has or a renegotiation followed by a another vote. The latter was ruled out quite quickly by the EU, so I'm not surprised by the current arrangement.

    Your issue is that of a vegetarian being served a steak. No matter the cut, the sauce or how long it is cooked, it will always be terrible to you. I'm much more of an omnivore and able to appreciate both meals.

    I think the NI outcome could have been better and I have repeatedly said so. Tailwindhome has my sympathy; however, by all accounts NI is booming under the protocol, so it is not all bad.

    *I know many won't agree and will post comments about promises to stay in the single market. The concept of "take back control" was fairly clear to me.
    To torture your metaphor, I'm happy to eat anything if it's nicely cooked and tasty. A beautiful fillet steak was promised, but there's no disguising the microwaved low-fat pork chop we've been served. It's edible, but that's about it.
    Voting for Brexit would also bring the apocalypse according to some. You took a view whether you believed any of these more extreme positions and voted accordingly. Others did too.
    Not sure what you are driving at here. The reasons behind individuals' votes are water under the bridge now. And not really relevant to the muddled execution of that decision. Having decided to Leave, I think we could have made a much better job of it and done far more to mitigate the inevitable disruption that such a fundamental change brings.
    When you have spent decades promising sunlit uplands it would be a severe knock to the pride to start announcing plans to mitigate disruption. Fundamentally each plan would be highlighting a benefit of EU membership.

    So the plan is not to make any mitigation plans, and to keep on blaming the EU?

    That does fit remarkably well with government behavior so far.
    Genesis Croix de Fer
    Cube Attain
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 19,191

    rjsterry said:

    rjsterry said:

    ddraver said:

    Has anyone got an unlocked copy of Fraser Nelson's - last of the Spectator Podcast hold outs - article in the Telegraph begins to realise that he backed the wrong horse..?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/25/right-support-brexit-global-britain-starting-wonder/

    Refresh and then stop loading almost straight away.

    Be warned though, it's just another "brexit was a good idea, but this version isn't" take.

    Yup, that's a decent summary.

    The next stage of acceptance will be to realise that no-one, even someone more industrious, honest and principled than Johnson would have been able to deliver those sunlit uplands, in a world which is not benign (or going to give anything away without reciprocal gain), and in which alliances with like-minded, geographically close neighbours is likely to be valuable to all parties overall, despite some loss of autonomy and the annoyances that that causes.

    At the moment, Fraser Nelson is checking Google for unicorn hunters with five-star ratings.
    Which stage of acceptance are you at?

    That it's happened, and it's shît.

    Out of interest, @TheBigBean, what stage of acceptance are you at that this might be just a little shîtter than you thought it might be? I do seem to remember you were quite bullish, even though you voted remain. Perhaps you didn't believe that we'd get the hard Brexit we've ended up with.

    Given the Tories have an 80-seat majority, and can get pretty much anything through parliament (see Paterson affair), shouldn't there be a bit more to show other than a few minor trade treaties rolled over from our EU days? Is it that the government is incompetent in following through on the treaty they signed, or is it that the whole project was flawed in the first place?

    Occam's Razor might be a good place to start...
    It doesn't really matter how I voted, and I have never said (or been asked) on this thread. The only thing that matters is that the UK collectively voted for Brexit, and I accepted that on the day of the result. I believe in self-determination above all else.

    The outcome was always likely to be what the UK now* has or a renegotiation followed by a another vote. The latter was ruled out quite quickly by the EU, so I'm not surprised by the current arrangement.

    Your issue is that of a vegetarian being served a steak. No matter the cut, the sauce or how long it is cooked, it will always be terrible to you. I'm much more of an omnivore and able to appreciate both meals.

    I think the NI outcome could have been better and I have repeatedly said so. Tailwindhome has my sympathy; however, by all accounts NI is booming under the protocol, so it is not all bad.

    *I know many won't agree and will post comments about promises to stay in the single market. The concept of "take back control" was fairly clear to me.
    To torture your metaphor, I'm happy to eat anything if it's nicely cooked and tasty. A beautiful fillet steak was promised, but there's no disguising the microwaved low-fat pork chop we've been served. It's edible, but that's about it.
    Voting for Brexit would also bring the apocalypse according to some. You took a view whether you believed any of these more extreme positions and voted accordingly. Others did too.
    Not sure what you are driving at here. The reasons behind individuals' votes are water under the bridge now. And not really relevant to the muddled execution of that decision. Having decided to Leave, I think we could have made a much better job of it and done far more to mitigate the inevitable disruption that such a fundamental change brings.
    When you have spent decades promising sunlit uplands it would be a severe knock to the pride to start announcing plans to mitigate disruption. Fundamentally each plan would be highlighting a benefit of EU membership.

    So the plan is not to make any mitigation plans, and to keep on blaming the EU?

    My opinion in August 2019.
    pblakeney said:

    The narrative now is that those in charge not only want a no deal Brexit, they want to pin the blame on the EU.

    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • rjsterry said:

    rjsterry said:

    ddraver said:

    Has anyone got an unlocked copy of Fraser Nelson's - last of the Spectator Podcast hold outs - article in the Telegraph begins to realise that he backed the wrong horse..?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/25/right-support-brexit-global-britain-starting-wonder/

    Refresh and then stop loading almost straight away.

    Be warned though, it's just another "brexit was a good idea, but this version isn't" take.

    Yup, that's a decent summary.

    The next stage of acceptance will be to realise that no-one, even someone more industrious, honest and principled than Johnson would have been able to deliver those sunlit uplands, in a world which is not benign (or going to give anything away without reciprocal gain), and in which alliances with like-minded, geographically close neighbours is likely to be valuable to all parties overall, despite some loss of autonomy and the annoyances that that causes.

    At the moment, Fraser Nelson is checking Google for unicorn hunters with five-star ratings.
    Which stage of acceptance are you at?

    That it's happened, and it's shît.

    Out of interest, @TheBigBean, what stage of acceptance are you at that this might be just a little shîtter than you thought it might be? I do seem to remember you were quite bullish, even though you voted remain. Perhaps you didn't believe that we'd get the hard Brexit we've ended up with.

    Given the Tories have an 80-seat majority, and can get pretty much anything through parliament (see Paterson affair), shouldn't there be a bit more to show other than a few minor trade treaties rolled over from our EU days? Is it that the government is incompetent in following through on the treaty they signed, or is it that the whole project was flawed in the first place?

    Occam's Razor might be a good place to start...
    It doesn't really matter how I voted, and I have never said (or been asked) on this thread. The only thing that matters is that the UK collectively voted for Brexit, and I accepted that on the day of the result. I believe in self-determination above all else.

    The outcome was always likely to be what the UK now* has or a renegotiation followed by a another vote. The latter was ruled out quite quickly by the EU, so I'm not surprised by the current arrangement.

    Your issue is that of a vegetarian being served a steak. No matter the cut, the sauce or how long it is cooked, it will always be terrible to you. I'm much more of an omnivore and able to appreciate both meals.

    I think the NI outcome could have been better and I have repeatedly said so. Tailwindhome has my sympathy; however, by all accounts NI is booming under the protocol, so it is not all bad.

    *I know many won't agree and will post comments about promises to stay in the single market. The concept of "take back control" was fairly clear to me.
    To torture your metaphor, I'm happy to eat anything if it's nicely cooked and tasty. A beautiful fillet steak was promised, but there's no disguising the microwaved low-fat pork chop we've been served. It's edible, but that's about it.
    Voting for Brexit would also bring the apocalypse according to some. You took a view whether you believed any of these more extreme positions and voted accordingly. Others did too.
    Not sure what you are driving at here. The reasons behind individuals' votes are water under the bridge now. And not really relevant to the muddled execution of that decision. Having decided to Leave, I think we could have made a much better job of it and done far more to mitigate the inevitable disruption that such a fundamental change brings.
    When you have spent decades promising sunlit uplands it would be a severe knock to the pride to start announcing plans to mitigate disruption. Fundamentally each plan would be highlighting a benefit of EU membership.

    So the plan is not to make any mitigation plans, and to keep on blaming the EU?

    I am sure they have mitigation plans but you have to see why they would not publish details warning people that if they import/export part loads from the EU they may want to think again.
    Or publishing a list of upcoming skill shortages hardly adds to the aura of success.
  • ddraver said:

    Has anyone got an unlocked copy of Fraser Nelson's - last of the Spectator Podcast hold outs - article in the Telegraph begins to realise that he backed the wrong horse..?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/25/right-support-brexit-global-britain-starting-wonder/

    Refresh and then stop loading almost straight away.

    Be warned though, it's just another "brexit was a good idea, but this version isn't" take.

    Yup, that's a decent summary.

    The next stage of acceptance will be to realise that no-one, even someone more industrious, honest and principled than Johnson would have been able to deliver those sunlit uplands, in a world which is not benign (or going to give anything away without reciprocal gain), and in which alliances with like-minded, geographically close neighbours is likely to be valuable to all parties overall, despite some loss of autonomy and the annoyances that that causes.

    At the moment, Fraser Nelson is checking Google for unicorn hunters with five-star ratings.
    Which stage of acceptance are you at?

    That it's happened, and it's shît.

    Out of interest, @TheBigBean, what stage of acceptance are you at that this might be just a little shîtter than you thought it might be? I do seem to remember you were quite bullish, even though you voted remain. Perhaps you didn't believe that we'd get the hard Brexit we've ended up with.

    Given the Tories have an 80-seat majority, and can get pretty much anything through parliament (see Paterson affair), shouldn't there be a bit more to show other than a few minor trade treaties rolled over from our EU days? Is it that the government is incompetent in following through on the treaty they signed, or is it that the whole project was flawed in the first place?

    Occam's Razor might be a good place to start...
    It doesn't really matter how I voted, and I have never said (or been asked) on this thread. The only thing that matters is that the UK collectively voted for Brexit, and I accepted that on the day of the result. I believe in self-determination above all else.

    The outcome was always likely to be what the UK now* has or a renegotiation followed by a another vote. The latter was ruled out quite quickly by the EU, so I'm not surprised by the current arrangement.

    Your issue is that of a vegetarian being served a steak. No matter the cut, the sauce or how long it is cooked, it will always be terrible to you. I'm much more of an omnivore and able to appreciate both meals.

    I think the NI outcome could have been better and I have repeatedly said so. Tailwindhome has my sympathy; however, by all accounts NI is booming under the protocol, so it is not all bad.

    *I know many won't agree and will post comments about promises to stay in the single market. The concept of "take back control" was fairly clear to me.
    With Mr. Wetherspoons whining about a lack of staff causing him to restrict opening hours it does raise the question of what he expected Brexit to look like.
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 22,352

    rjsterry said:

    rjsterry said:

    ddraver said:

    Has anyone got an unlocked copy of Fraser Nelson's - last of the Spectator Podcast hold outs - article in the Telegraph begins to realise that he backed the wrong horse..?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/25/right-support-brexit-global-britain-starting-wonder/

    Refresh and then stop loading almost straight away.

    Be warned though, it's just another "brexit was a good idea, but this version isn't" take.

    Yup, that's a decent summary.

    The next stage of acceptance will be to realise that no-one, even someone more industrious, honest and principled than Johnson would have been able to deliver those sunlit uplands, in a world which is not benign (or going to give anything away without reciprocal gain), and in which alliances with like-minded, geographically close neighbours is likely to be valuable to all parties overall, despite some loss of autonomy and the annoyances that that causes.

    At the moment, Fraser Nelson is checking Google for unicorn hunters with five-star ratings.
    Which stage of acceptance are you at?

    That it's happened, and it's shît.

    Out of interest, @TheBigBean, what stage of acceptance are you at that this might be just a little shîtter than you thought it might be? I do seem to remember you were quite bullish, even though you voted remain. Perhaps you didn't believe that we'd get the hard Brexit we've ended up with.

    Given the Tories have an 80-seat majority, and can get pretty much anything through parliament (see Paterson affair), shouldn't there be a bit more to show other than a few minor trade treaties rolled over from our EU days? Is it that the government is incompetent in following through on the treaty they signed, or is it that the whole project was flawed in the first place?

    Occam's Razor might be a good place to start...
    It doesn't really matter how I voted, and I have never said (or been asked) on this thread. The only thing that matters is that the UK collectively voted for Brexit, and I accepted that on the day of the result. I believe in self-determination above all else.

    The outcome was always likely to be what the UK now* has or a renegotiation followed by a another vote. The latter was ruled out quite quickly by the EU, so I'm not surprised by the current arrangement.

    Your issue is that of a vegetarian being served a steak. No matter the cut, the sauce or how long it is cooked, it will always be terrible to you. I'm much more of an omnivore and able to appreciate both meals.

    I think the NI outcome could have been better and I have repeatedly said so. Tailwindhome has my sympathy; however, by all accounts NI is booming under the protocol, so it is not all bad.

    *I know many won't agree and will post comments about promises to stay in the single market. The concept of "take back control" was fairly clear to me.
    To torture your metaphor, I'm happy to eat anything if it's nicely cooked and tasty. A beautiful fillet steak was promised, but there's no disguising the microwaved low-fat pork chop we've been served. It's edible, but that's about it.
    Voting for Brexit would also bring the apocalypse according to some. You took a view whether you believed any of these more extreme positions and voted accordingly. Others did too.
    Not sure what you are driving at here. The reasons behind individuals' votes are water under the bridge now. And not really relevant to the muddled execution of that decision. Having decided to Leave, I think we could have made a much better job of it and done far more to mitigate the inevitable disruption that such a fundamental change brings.
    When you have spent decades promising sunlit uplands it would be a severe knock to the pride to start announcing plans to mitigate disruption. Fundamentally each plan would be highlighting a benefit of EU membership.

    So the plan is not to make any mitigation plans, and to keep on blaming the EU?

    I am sure they have mitigation plans but you have to see why they would not publish details warning people that if they import/export part loads from the EU they may want to think again.
    Or publishing a list of upcoming skill shortages hardly adds to the aura of success.
    The mitigation plans - something you would need with any change of this scale, so nothing to be embarrassed about - should have been worked through and executed before we actually left. What we have actually had is reactive management, waiting for a problem to really set in before belatedly issuing a few extra visas or whatever to paper over the cracks.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • Could have done worse than listen to this guy in 2016:

    If you judged what was happening in Britain by watching Twitter, you could be forgiven for thinking, as the Dutch Prime Minister apparently does, that the country is in a state of political and economic collapse. In reality, the only collapse is among commentators whose world view has disintegrated and experts whose expertise is suddenly a lot less valuable. They should stop flapping. The country is carrying on and is no more ungoverned than it is during a general election campaign.

    Instead, we should be preparing seriously for what is to come. Business is already doing so. The Conservative leadership candidates must do so too, and I have three thoughts for them as they set out their stalls.

    First, be realistic about how to negotiate Brexit. It will be our most complex negotiation ever. We can’t afford to get it wrong. Whole industries could be destroyed if we do so.

    There is a solution. It is to go for Norway status for now, but explicitly as a transitional arrangement. We should say that we intend, after exit, to retain this status for say five years and to use that period to reflect and if necessary negotiate a Free Trade Agreement like Canada’s, if that is what we want to do, or to keep Norway status if we don’t.

    The advantages are that it’s an off the shelf option with a largely pre-written Treaty, so politically can hardly be refused to us. It keeps us part of the single market for at least a transitional period and so avoids huge disruption for business. It allows government to sequence negotiations, focusing on issues like the UK’s own trade agreements or support for farmers, which are not part of the EEA and will be complex enough to bed down in the two-year exit period.

    Remainers and Leavers should also be able to unite around this as a transitional arrangement. Remainers because it is the least disruptive in the short run and would preserve important economic and business interests like the financial services passport. Leavers because it would achieve Brexit quickly, extract us from everything bar the single market and some closely associated policies, return to us our own farming and fisheries policies, and gives us at least the protection of the EEA safeguard clause for free movement. And if we want to go further, we always have that option.

    Of course both sides would have to compromise. But they are going to have to anyway. As a former trade negotiator, I don’t believe we can agree, ratify, and implement a Canada or Swiss-style FTA in two years. It is just too complex. Nor can we put in place and effectively enforce quickly an Australian-style points system for immigration. We need time and this gives us it.

    Second, remember this is not just about Britain. For now, we are hearing the bruised reactions of those who run the EU institutions and those in Foreign Ministries who have a vested interest in them. In reality the EU has been in slow-burn crisis for years, and there will be an economic impact in the rest of the EU from Brexit too. Once the shock is over, normal politics will reassert itself across Europe. In politics, the business community, and civil society there will be voices arguing for a pragmatic solution. We will have supporters. We can afford to wait so they can be heard and cooler heads prevail.

    Finally, let’s start building capacity now to be an independent actor again. We will need a major enhancement of capability in the civil and diplomatic Services, most obviously in trade negotiating. There are also some skills we won’t need any longer, just as we didn’t need experts in the Berlin Four Power arrangements after 1990.

    But it is not just people, it’s also an attitude of mind. Supporters of independence for Scotland sometimes argue that Scotland should behave internationally as if it was independent and it would gradually come to seem natural that it should be. Similarly, Britain should start behaving now for an independent trade policy. We should have our own dedicated WTO Ambassador again. British Embassies should be active on market access problems for British business. We should start discussing the scope for our own trade agreements. It is going to happen and it would be neglect if we didn’t get going soon.

    In short: don’t rush, prepare well, and start to act for ourselves again. And let’s be positive. A new chapter is opening in our national story. We are a great country – all of us: all of our political parties, all of our nations. Whatever we do, we are going to be successful. Let’s make it happen.
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 22,352
    edited November 2021
    Yes. That.

    Is not what we are doing.

    Can I ask who wrote it?
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 61,040 Lives Here
    edited November 2021
    I advocated a norway style transitional period in here for the 4 and a half years between the vote and the actual brexit.

    Unfortunately in that time, the party that foisted the whole debacle (that was low on everyone's agenda apart from theirs) onto the publoc then managed to gaslight them to say that only they, the people who brought Brexit into everyone's lives, were the ones who could "get it done" in order to "move on" and shut up about it.

    Problem is these f*ckers are not very good at this whole governing thing, and now we have an excess death body count that if you stacked all the coffins up in 3 columns would each reach the edge of the earth's atmosphere.
  • rjsterry said:

    Yes. That.

    Is not what we are doing.

    Can I ask who wrote it?





    :D:D
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 16,251
    rjsterry said:

    Yes. That.

    Is not what we are doing.

    Can I ask who wrote it?

    The second to last paragraph is the giveaway that it's Frost.
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 22,352
    edited November 2021
    🙄Yes, should have guessed.

    So what happened? Blow to the head? How do you get from that to threatening to invoke Article 16 every couple of weeks?
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 16,251
    rjsterry said:

    🙄Yes, should have guessed.

    So what happened? Blow to the head? How do you get from that to threatening to invoke Article 16 every couple of weeks?

    Change of negotiation style/boss.
  • tailwindhometailwindhome Posts: 17,385
    Believe that a farther shore
    Is reachable from here.
    Believe in miracles
    And cures and healing wells
  • briantrumpetbriantrumpet Posts: 10,200
    What is it with the fixation with the EU? Hasn't someone told The Telegraph that we've left?


  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 22,352

    What is it with the fixation with the EU? Hasn't someone told The Telegraph that we've left?


    They've gone full self-parody with that one 😂
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • rjsterry said:

    What is it with the fixation with the EU? Hasn't someone told The Telegraph that we've left?


    They've gone full self-parody with that one 😂
    In the same vein:


  • ddraverddraver Posts: 24,102
    ....so desperate to import US Culture wars..?!?
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 61,040 Lives Here
    Not that anyone gives a sh!t but this is the first year since 2012 that I’ve not been able to get all the Sinterklaas sweets, decorations, etc in for the celebration.

    I used to get them all from the Hema, but since this year they’ve stopped selling to the UK.

    Just at the age when my daughter would actually notice.
  • briantrumpetbriantrumpet Posts: 10,200
    When even the Express is struggling to find the positives... is there an irony that they are now complaining about EU red tape resulting from being outside the EU?

  • tailwindhometailwindhome Posts: 17,385

    When even the Express is struggling to find the positives... is there an irony that they are now complaining about EU red tape resulting from being outside the EU?

    The red tape they're complaining about is UK red tape
    Believe that a farther shore
    Is reachable from here.
    Believe in miracles
    And cures and healing wells
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 24,102
    EU red tape doesn't kick in until January.

    Happy New Year!
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 22,352
    edited December 2021
    ddraver said:

    EU red tape doesn't kick in until January.

    Happy New Year!

    But only applies to our exports whereas the Express refers to HMRC the 'EU'.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 61,040 Lives Here
    Amazing people felt Brexit would lead to less “red tape”

    Plenty of chat about that on here pre vote.
  • It's been the single, biggest source of beaurocracy, red tape and paperwork in my 24 years of working.

    This is before UKCA regulations and divergence from CE has happened. That pointless censored -show starts in January.
  • ProssPross Posts: 31,662

    Amazing people felt Brexit would lead to less “red tape”

    Plenty of chat about that on here pre vote.

    You have to look at it from the point of view that this was what they were told, they were too stupid and / or lazy to do their own research or thinking and they'd had enough of experts who told them anything they didn't want to hear.
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