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BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

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  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 16,209
    Accepting refugees from Hong Kong seems popular.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 61,012 Lives Here

    Accepting refugees from Hong Kong seems popular.

    Just not from refugees from wars the Brits sent troops into
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 16,209

    Accepting refugees from Hong Kong seems popular.

    Just not from refugees from wars the Brits sent troops into
    Yes. I think that is one of the most legitimate criticisms of the UK's refugee policies. That said, to claim asylum you do need to be fleeing persecution, so not everyone in countries the UK has meddled in would be eligible.
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 24,093
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Are you arguing about trade or handling migrants seeking asylum?


    People.
    Sure.

    Out of interest, for the "should go to the first safe country they arrive at" (not a legal or treaty requirement or obligation)for a nation surrounded by water, from what countries would the UK accept asylum seekers from?
    Is this true?

    From Wikipedia "European law, the Dublin Regulation, requires that asylum seekers have their asylum claim registered in the first country they arrive in"
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 61,012 Lives Here
    edited November 2021
    https://fullfact.org/immigration/refugees-first-safe-country/

    This sort of wriggling around “first safe country” is not a good look. It’s pathetic, inhumane and anyone with any modicum of sense can see where it comes from
  • Are you arguing about trade or handling migrants seeking asylum?


    People.
    Sure.

    Out of interest, for the "should go to the first safe country they arrive at" (not a legal or treaty requirement or obligation)for a nation surrounded by water, from what countries would the UK accept asylum seekers from?
    Is this true?

    From Wikipedia "European law, the Dublin Regulation, requires that asylum seekers have their asylum claim registered in the first country they arrive in"
    That's an EU specific law. We've taken back control.
  • ProssPross Posts: 31,647
    The odd thing is that those who talk about the first safe country seem to also be happy for refugees arriving here to be returned to France. I doubt that's the country the majority arrive in. Spain, Greece, Italy would bear the brunt.
  • https://fullfact.org/immigration/refugees-first-safe-country/

    This sort of wriggling around “first safe country” is not a good look. It’s pathetic, inhumane and anyone with any modicum of sense can see where it comes from

    So according to that Wiki is wrong. The Dublin agreement requires them to remain in the first country in which they claim asylum, not claim asylum in the country they arrive.

    Quite a difference!
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 24,093
    A good reminder that people are as equally free to edit Wikipedia as they are to post here...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • https://fullfact.org/immigration/refugees-first-safe-country/

    This sort of wriggling around “first safe country” is not a good look. It’s pathetic, inhumane and anyone with any modicum of sense can see where it comes from

    So according to that Wiki is wrong. The Dublin agreement requires them to remain in the first country in which they claim asylum, not claim asylum in the country they arrive.

    Quite a difference!
    That page is from 2019, and says "Refugees who arrive in the UK after passing through another EU country can, under certain circumstances, also be returned to the first EU country they entered, under an EU law known as the Dublin Regulation."

    The Dublin Regulation is still the same, but no longer applies to the UK.
  • briantrumpetbriantrumpet Posts: 10,169
    At least Jeremy Warner at the Telegraph gets the backwards trajectory of Brexit. I wonder if the shortage of cheap labour will give unions more power, knowing that recourse to other labour sources, let alone cheaper ones, is much less feasible now. Now that would be ironic.


  • ddraverddraver Posts: 24,093
    Has anyone got an unlocked copy of Fraser Nelson's - last of the Spectator Podcast hold outs - article in the Telegraph begins to realise that he backed the wrong horse..?
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • ddraver said:

    Has anyone got an unlocked copy of Fraser Nelson's - last of the Spectator Podcast hold outs - article in the Telegraph begins to realise that he backed the wrong horse..?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/25/right-support-brexit-global-britain-starting-wonder/

    Refresh and then stop loading almost straight away.

    Be warned though, it's just another "brexit was a good idea, but this version isn't" take.
  • briantrumpetbriantrumpet Posts: 10,169

    ddraver said:

    Has anyone got an unlocked copy of Fraser Nelson's - last of the Spectator Podcast hold outs - article in the Telegraph begins to realise that he backed the wrong horse..?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/25/right-support-brexit-global-britain-starting-wonder/

    Refresh and then stop loading almost straight away.

    Be warned though, it's just another "brexit was a good idea, but this version isn't" take.

    Yup, that's a decent summary.

    The next stage of acceptance will be to realise that no-one, even someone more industrious, honest and principled than Johnson would have been able to deliver those sunlit uplands, in a world which is not benign (or going to give anything away without reciprocal gain), and in which alliances with like-minded, geographically close neighbours is likely to be valuable to all parties overall, despite some loss of autonomy and the annoyances that that causes.

    At the moment, Fraser Nelson is checking Google for unicorn hunters with five-star ratings.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 16,209

    ddraver said:

    Has anyone got an unlocked copy of Fraser Nelson's - last of the Spectator Podcast hold outs - article in the Telegraph begins to realise that he backed the wrong horse..?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/25/right-support-brexit-global-britain-starting-wonder/

    Refresh and then stop loading almost straight away.

    Be warned though, it's just another "brexit was a good idea, but this version isn't" take.

    Yup, that's a decent summary.

    The next stage of acceptance will be to realise that no-one, even someone more industrious, honest and principled than Johnson would have been able to deliver those sunlit uplands, in a world which is not benign (or going to give anything away without reciprocal gain), and in which alliances with like-minded, geographically close neighbours is likely to be valuable to all parties overall, despite some loss of autonomy and the annoyances that that causes.

    At the moment, Fraser Nelson is checking Google for unicorn hunters with five-star ratings.
    Which stage of acceptance are you at?
  • briantrumpetbriantrumpet Posts: 10,169

    ddraver said:

    Has anyone got an unlocked copy of Fraser Nelson's - last of the Spectator Podcast hold outs - article in the Telegraph begins to realise that he backed the wrong horse..?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/25/right-support-brexit-global-britain-starting-wonder/

    Refresh and then stop loading almost straight away.

    Be warned though, it's just another "brexit was a good idea, but this version isn't" take.

    Yup, that's a decent summary.

    The next stage of acceptance will be to realise that no-one, even someone more industrious, honest and principled than Johnson would have been able to deliver those sunlit uplands, in a world which is not benign (or going to give anything away without reciprocal gain), and in which alliances with like-minded, geographically close neighbours is likely to be valuable to all parties overall, despite some loss of autonomy and the annoyances that that causes.

    At the moment, Fraser Nelson is checking Google for unicorn hunters with five-star ratings.
    Which stage of acceptance are you at?

    That it's happened, and it's shît.
  • ddraver said:

    Has anyone got an unlocked copy of Fraser Nelson's - last of the Spectator Podcast hold outs - article in the Telegraph begins to realise that he backed the wrong horse..?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/25/right-support-brexit-global-britain-starting-wonder/

    Refresh and then stop loading almost straight away.

    Be warned though, it's just another "brexit was a good idea, but this version isn't" take.

    Yup, that's a decent summary.

    The next stage of acceptance will be to realise that no-one, even someone more industrious, honest and principled than Johnson would have been able to deliver those sunlit uplands, in a world which is not benign (or going to give anything away without reciprocal gain), and in which alliances with like-minded, geographically close neighbours is likely to be valuable to all parties overall, despite some loss of autonomy and the annoyances that that causes.

    At the moment, Fraser Nelson is checking Google for unicorn hunters with five-star ratings.
    Which stage of acceptance are you at?

    That it's happened, and it's shît.

    ddraver said:

    Has anyone got an unlocked copy of Fraser Nelson's - last of the Spectator Podcast hold outs - article in the Telegraph begins to realise that he backed the wrong horse..?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/25/right-support-brexit-global-britain-starting-wonder/

    Refresh and then stop loading almost straight away.

    Be warned though, it's just another "brexit was a good idea, but this version isn't" take.

    Yup, that's a decent summary.

    The next stage of acceptance will be to realise that no-one, even someone more industrious, honest and principled than Johnson would have been able to deliver those sunlit uplands, in a world which is not benign (or going to give anything away without reciprocal gain), and in which alliances with like-minded, geographically close neighbours is likely to be valuable to all parties overall, despite some loss of autonomy and the annoyances that that causes.

    At the moment, Fraser Nelson is checking Google for unicorn hunters with five-star ratings.
    Which stage of acceptance are you at?

    That it's happened, and it's shît.
    On a macro level it is progressing as expected but I think they got lucky with Covid as I think without it there could have been some huge queues in Kent.
  • briantrumpetbriantrumpet Posts: 10,169

    ddraver said:

    Has anyone got an unlocked copy of Fraser Nelson's - last of the Spectator Podcast hold outs - article in the Telegraph begins to realise that he backed the wrong horse..?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/25/right-support-brexit-global-britain-starting-wonder/

    Refresh and then stop loading almost straight away.

    Be warned though, it's just another "brexit was a good idea, but this version isn't" take.

    Yup, that's a decent summary.

    The next stage of acceptance will be to realise that no-one, even someone more industrious, honest and principled than Johnson would have been able to deliver those sunlit uplands, in a world which is not benign (or going to give anything away without reciprocal gain), and in which alliances with like-minded, geographically close neighbours is likely to be valuable to all parties overall, despite some loss of autonomy and the annoyances that that causes.

    At the moment, Fraser Nelson is checking Google for unicorn hunters with five-star ratings.
    Which stage of acceptance are you at?

    That it's happened, and it's shît.

    ddraver said:

    Has anyone got an unlocked copy of Fraser Nelson's - last of the Spectator Podcast hold outs - article in the Telegraph begins to realise that he backed the wrong horse..?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/25/right-support-brexit-global-britain-starting-wonder/

    Refresh and then stop loading almost straight away.

    Be warned though, it's just another "brexit was a good idea, but this version isn't" take.

    Yup, that's a decent summary.

    The next stage of acceptance will be to realise that no-one, even someone more industrious, honest and principled than Johnson would have been able to deliver those sunlit uplands, in a world which is not benign (or going to give anything away without reciprocal gain), and in which alliances with like-minded, geographically close neighbours is likely to be valuable to all parties overall, despite some loss of autonomy and the annoyances that that causes.

    At the moment, Fraser Nelson is checking Google for unicorn hunters with five-star ratings.
    Which stage of acceptance are you at?

    That it's happened, and it's shît.
    On a macro level it is progressing as expected but I think they got lucky with Covid as I think without it there could have been some huge queues in Kent.

    And we've only just got going on the project. I'm only expecting more shît things to appear as consequences, whether that's higher property taxes for property owners in France (obvs declaring personal interest there), or just lots of things becoming more expensive or problematic. And that's quite apart from my philosophical dislike of putting up barriers where we'd made progress in taking them down.
  • briantrumpetbriantrumpet Posts: 10,169

    ddraver said:

    Has anyone got an unlocked copy of Fraser Nelson's - last of the Spectator Podcast hold outs - article in the Telegraph begins to realise that he backed the wrong horse..?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/25/right-support-brexit-global-britain-starting-wonder/

    Refresh and then stop loading almost straight away.

    Be warned though, it's just another "brexit was a good idea, but this version isn't" take.

    Yup, that's a decent summary.

    The next stage of acceptance will be to realise that no-one, even someone more industrious, honest and principled than Johnson would have been able to deliver those sunlit uplands, in a world which is not benign (or going to give anything away without reciprocal gain), and in which alliances with like-minded, geographically close neighbours is likely to be valuable to all parties overall, despite some loss of autonomy and the annoyances that that causes.

    At the moment, Fraser Nelson is checking Google for unicorn hunters with five-star ratings.
    Which stage of acceptance are you at?

    That it's happened, and it's shît.

    Out of interest, @TheBigBean, what stage of acceptance are you at that this might be just a little shîtter than you thought it might be? I do seem to remember you were quite bullish, even though you voted remain. Perhaps you didn't believe that we'd get the hard Brexit we've ended up with.

    Given the Tories have an 80-seat majority, and can get pretty much anything through parliament (see Paterson affair), shouldn't there be a bit more to show other than a few minor trade treaties rolled over from our EU days? Is it that the government is incompetent in following through on the treaty they signed, or is it that the whole project was flawed in the first place?

    Occam's Razor might be a good place to start...
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 16,209

    ddraver said:

    Has anyone got an unlocked copy of Fraser Nelson's - last of the Spectator Podcast hold outs - article in the Telegraph begins to realise that he backed the wrong horse..?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/25/right-support-brexit-global-britain-starting-wonder/

    Refresh and then stop loading almost straight away.

    Be warned though, it's just another "brexit was a good idea, but this version isn't" take.

    Yup, that's a decent summary.

    The next stage of acceptance will be to realise that no-one, even someone more industrious, honest and principled than Johnson would have been able to deliver those sunlit uplands, in a world which is not benign (or going to give anything away without reciprocal gain), and in which alliances with like-minded, geographically close neighbours is likely to be valuable to all parties overall, despite some loss of autonomy and the annoyances that that causes.

    At the moment, Fraser Nelson is checking Google for unicorn hunters with five-star ratings.
    Which stage of acceptance are you at?

    That it's happened, and it's shît.

    Out of interest, @TheBigBean, what stage of acceptance are you at that this might be just a little shîtter than you thought it might be? I do seem to remember you were quite bullish, even though you voted remain. Perhaps you didn't believe that we'd get the hard Brexit we've ended up with.

    Given the Tories have an 80-seat majority, and can get pretty much anything through parliament (see Paterson affair), shouldn't there be a bit more to show other than a few minor trade treaties rolled over from our EU days? Is it that the government is incompetent in following through on the treaty they signed, or is it that the whole project was flawed in the first place?

    Occam's Razor might be a good place to start...
    It doesn't really matter how I voted, and I have never said (or been asked) on this thread. The only thing that matters is that the UK collectively voted for Brexit, and I accepted that on the day of the result. I believe in self-determination above all else.

    The outcome was always likely to be what the UK now* has or a renegotiation followed by a another vote. The latter was ruled out quite quickly by the EU, so I'm not surprised by the current arrangement.

    Your issue is that of a vegetarian being served a steak. No matter the cut, the sauce or how long it is cooked, it will always be terrible to you. I'm much more of an omnivore and able to appreciate both meals.

    I think the NI outcome could have been better and I have repeatedly said so. Tailwindhome has my sympathy; however, by all accounts NI is booming under the protocol, so it is not all bad.

    *I know many won't agree and will post comments about promises to stay in the single market. The concept of "take back control" was fairly clear to me.
  • briantrumpetbriantrumpet Posts: 10,169

    ddraver said:

    Has anyone got an unlocked copy of Fraser Nelson's - last of the Spectator Podcast hold outs - article in the Telegraph begins to realise that he backed the wrong horse..?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/25/right-support-brexit-global-britain-starting-wonder/

    Refresh and then stop loading almost straight away.

    Be warned though, it's just another "brexit was a good idea, but this version isn't" take.

    Yup, that's a decent summary.

    The next stage of acceptance will be to realise that no-one, even someone more industrious, honest and principled than Johnson would have been able to deliver those sunlit uplands, in a world which is not benign (or going to give anything away without reciprocal gain), and in which alliances with like-minded, geographically close neighbours is likely to be valuable to all parties overall, despite some loss of autonomy and the annoyances that that causes.

    At the moment, Fraser Nelson is checking Google for unicorn hunters with five-star ratings.
    Which stage of acceptance are you at?

    That it's happened, and it's shît.

    Out of interest, @TheBigBean, what stage of acceptance are you at that this might be just a little shîtter than you thought it might be? I do seem to remember you were quite bullish, even though you voted remain. Perhaps you didn't believe that we'd get the hard Brexit we've ended up with.

    Given the Tories have an 80-seat majority, and can get pretty much anything through parliament (see Paterson affair), shouldn't there be a bit more to show other than a few minor trade treaties rolled over from our EU days? Is it that the government is incompetent in following through on the treaty they signed, or is it that the whole project was flawed in the first place?

    Occam's Razor might be a good place to start...
    It doesn't really matter how I voted, and I have never said (or been asked) on this thread. The only thing that matters is that the UK collectively voted for Brexit, and I accepted that on the day of the result. I believe in self-determination above all else.

    The outcome was always likely to be what the UK now* has or a renegotiation followed by a another vote. The latter was ruled out quite quickly by the EU, so I'm not surprised by the current arrangement.

    Your issue is that of a vegetarian being served a steak. No matter the cut, the sauce or how long it is cooked, it will always be terrible to you. I'm much more of an omnivore and able to appreciate both meals.

    I think the NI outcome could have been better and I have repeatedly said so. Tailwindhome has my sympathy; however, by all accounts NI is booming under the protocol, so it is not all bad.

    *I know many won't agree and will post comments about promises to stay in the single market. The concept of "take back control" was fairly clear to me.

    Thanks TBB.

    I suppose I'll not stop grieving for what we've lost, and I can't see any gains. I can no more deny it's happened than I can pretend gravity exists when a wheel goes out from under me, but I've seen nothing to change my mind that it was stupid.

    It probably could have been marginally less bad had we had a competent government, but not as 'less bad' as staying in the EU would have been.

    NI will depend on what Boris Frost does next. At the moment, NI has the best of both worlds (mostly), rather like the whole of the UK did before. I hope they get to keep that, both for them, and the island of Ireland. I'd not want to punish them for our bad choice.
  • ProssPross Posts: 31,647

    ddraver said:

    Has anyone got an unlocked copy of Fraser Nelson's - last of the Spectator Podcast hold outs - article in the Telegraph begins to realise that he backed the wrong horse..?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/25/right-support-brexit-global-britain-starting-wonder/

    Refresh and then stop loading almost straight away.

    Be warned though, it's just another "brexit was a good idea, but this version isn't" take.

    Yup, that's a decent summary.

    The next stage of acceptance will be to realise that no-one, even someone more industrious, honest and principled than Johnson would have been able to deliver those sunlit uplands, in a world which is not benign (or going to give anything away without reciprocal gain), and in which alliances with like-minded, geographically close neighbours is likely to be valuable to all parties overall, despite some loss of autonomy and the annoyances that that causes.

    At the moment, Fraser Nelson is checking Google for unicorn hunters with five-star ratings.
    Which stage of acceptance are you at?

    That it's happened, and it's shît.

    Out of interest, @TheBigBean, what stage of acceptance are you at that this might be just a little shîtter than you thought it might be? I do seem to remember you were quite bullish, even though you voted remain. Perhaps you didn't believe that we'd get the hard Brexit we've ended up with.

    Given the Tories have an 80-seat majority, and can get pretty much anything through parliament (see Paterson affair), shouldn't there be a bit more to show other than a few minor trade treaties rolled over from our EU days? Is it that the government is incompetent in following through on the treaty they signed, or is it that the whole project was flawed in the first place?

    Occam's Razor might be a good place to start...


    *I know many won't agree and will post comments about promises to stay in the single market. The concept of "take back control" was fairly clear to me.
    I think it was clear to a lot of us but
    as you point out yourself that's not what those leading Vote Leave were saying they were aiming for and anyone pointing out the way the wind was blowing were dismissed as pushing Project Fear.

  • The people who sold a censored and said it was a doughnut want to be elected again next time.
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 22,340

    ddraver said:

    Has anyone got an unlocked copy of Fraser Nelson's - last of the Spectator Podcast hold outs - article in the Telegraph begins to realise that he backed the wrong horse..?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/25/right-support-brexit-global-britain-starting-wonder/

    Refresh and then stop loading almost straight away.

    Be warned though, it's just another "brexit was a good idea, but this version isn't" take.

    Yup, that's a decent summary.

    The next stage of acceptance will be to realise that no-one, even someone more industrious, honest and principled than Johnson would have been able to deliver those sunlit uplands, in a world which is not benign (or going to give anything away without reciprocal gain), and in which alliances with like-minded, geographically close neighbours is likely to be valuable to all parties overall, despite some loss of autonomy and the annoyances that that causes.

    At the moment, Fraser Nelson is checking Google for unicorn hunters with five-star ratings.
    Which stage of acceptance are you at?

    That it's happened, and it's shît.

    Out of interest, @TheBigBean, what stage of acceptance are you at that this might be just a little shîtter than you thought it might be? I do seem to remember you were quite bullish, even though you voted remain. Perhaps you didn't believe that we'd get the hard Brexit we've ended up with.

    Given the Tories have an 80-seat majority, and can get pretty much anything through parliament (see Paterson affair), shouldn't there be a bit more to show other than a few minor trade treaties rolled over from our EU days? Is it that the government is incompetent in following through on the treaty they signed, or is it that the whole project was flawed in the first place?

    Occam's Razor might be a good place to start...
    It doesn't really matter how I voted, and I have never said (or been asked) on this thread. The only thing that matters is that the UK collectively voted for Brexit, and I accepted that on the day of the result. I believe in self-determination above all else.

    The outcome was always likely to be what the UK now* has or a renegotiation followed by a another vote. The latter was ruled out quite quickly by the EU, so I'm not surprised by the current arrangement.

    Your issue is that of a vegetarian being served a steak. No matter the cut, the sauce or how long it is cooked, it will always be terrible to you. I'm much more of an omnivore and able to appreciate both meals.

    I think the NI outcome could have been better and I have repeatedly said so. Tailwindhome has my sympathy; however, by all accounts NI is booming under the protocol, so it is not all bad.

    *I know many won't agree and will post comments about promises to stay in the single market. The concept of "take back control" was fairly clear to me.
    To torture your metaphor, I'm happy to eat anything if it's nicely cooked and tasty. A beautiful fillet steak was promised, but there's no disguising the microwaved low-fat pork chop we've been served. It's edible, but that's about it.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 24,093
    Did anyone know this..?

    https://vm.tiktok.com/ZM8tnuhFv/
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 19,160
    edited November 2021
    Strikes me as nonsense. Export freight from the EU to America has to go through Heathrow? Really? More likely that they are picking up more freight.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 16,209
    rjsterry said:

    ddraver said:

    Has anyone got an unlocked copy of Fraser Nelson's - last of the Spectator Podcast hold outs - article in the Telegraph begins to realise that he backed the wrong horse..?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/25/right-support-brexit-global-britain-starting-wonder/

    Refresh and then stop loading almost straight away.

    Be warned though, it's just another "brexit was a good idea, but this version isn't" take.

    Yup, that's a decent summary.

    The next stage of acceptance will be to realise that no-one, even someone more industrious, honest and principled than Johnson would have been able to deliver those sunlit uplands, in a world which is not benign (or going to give anything away without reciprocal gain), and in which alliances with like-minded, geographically close neighbours is likely to be valuable to all parties overall, despite some loss of autonomy and the annoyances that that causes.

    At the moment, Fraser Nelson is checking Google for unicorn hunters with five-star ratings.
    Which stage of acceptance are you at?

    That it's happened, and it's shît.

    Out of interest, @TheBigBean, what stage of acceptance are you at that this might be just a little shîtter than you thought it might be? I do seem to remember you were quite bullish, even though you voted remain. Perhaps you didn't believe that we'd get the hard Brexit we've ended up with.

    Given the Tories have an 80-seat majority, and can get pretty much anything through parliament (see Paterson affair), shouldn't there be a bit more to show other than a few minor trade treaties rolled over from our EU days? Is it that the government is incompetent in following through on the treaty they signed, or is it that the whole project was flawed in the first place?

    Occam's Razor might be a good place to start...
    It doesn't really matter how I voted, and I have never said (or been asked) on this thread. The only thing that matters is that the UK collectively voted for Brexit, and I accepted that on the day of the result. I believe in self-determination above all else.

    The outcome was always likely to be what the UK now* has or a renegotiation followed by a another vote. The latter was ruled out quite quickly by the EU, so I'm not surprised by the current arrangement.

    Your issue is that of a vegetarian being served a steak. No matter the cut, the sauce or how long it is cooked, it will always be terrible to you. I'm much more of an omnivore and able to appreciate both meals.

    I think the NI outcome could have been better and I have repeatedly said so. Tailwindhome has my sympathy; however, by all accounts NI is booming under the protocol, so it is not all bad.

    *I know many won't agree and will post comments about promises to stay in the single market. The concept of "take back control" was fairly clear to me.
    To torture your metaphor, I'm happy to eat anything if it's nicely cooked and tasty. A beautiful fillet steak was promised, but there's no disguising the microwaved low-fat pork chop we've been served. It's edible, but that's about it.
    Voting for Brexit would also bring the apocalypse according to some. You took a view whether you believed any of these more extreme positions and voted accordingly. Others did too.
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