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BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

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  • john80 said:

    john80 said:

    john80 said:

    john80 said:

    john80 said:

    From the speech Starner made yesterday- under the theme of 'Make Brexit Work'



    Don't think it is a vote winner though and goes against his more sensible policy of staying clear of all things Brexit. Still, he is safe though, his speech won't get any news coverage because everyone is busy laughing at Peppa Pig references.
    What is a vote winner?

    Sleaze was hitting home. Anything that appears unfair, so Tories looking after Tories e.g. care homes. Not spending enough on the NHS and education is probably another.

    What doesn't work is banging on about Brexit or Boris inappropriately mentioning Peppa Pig.
    So how does an opposition attack the government on issues caused by Brexit or put forward an alternative* vision of post Brexit Britain?

    Or highlight that the thing that Boris was elected to get done is not in fact done

    Do they just not?




    *Obviously I'm being generous here by suggesting this Gov has a vision
    The answer is that it is very difficult to go to the electorate and be pro remain. The reason for this is essentially the flip of Brexit. We have left and therefore anything significantly less hard than what we currently have will come with conditions you can't get enough people to vote for.

    If you transported kier into number ten at best he would spend a couple of months giving ground to individual or group EU nations for little to nothing in return based on his current rhetoric and a significant percentage of the population know this. Essentially Brexit is done and it is a management job of being seen to act in the best interests of the UK as after all it is this group that elects you.
    That's exactly what Starmer said.

    Johnson meanwhile just wants conflict for the drama of it.
    Starmer does not have a coherent answer to the Northern Ireland border. Some of what frost and Johnson are doing is necessary drama.
    Lol
    The fact you can't give a starmer methodology is the funny bit. Same applies to Kingston.
    That's not the funny bit
    Is it the lack of capitalisation on Starmer?
    In which case it should be Starmer Methodology ;)

    either way it seems a strange thing to criticse him for
    If you boys want to vote for starmer when he cannot give a coherent game plan then crack on. Just seems a bit inconsistent with the general Tory bashing that goes on when you say they don't have a plan.
    Have you read or heard his speech?
    Boris or Starmers. Starmer is yet to come up with a credible Northern Irish solution. If you think otherwise feel free to post up a link to this plan.
    Starmer
  • john80john80 Posts: 2,965
    pangolin said:

    john80 said:

    john80 said:

    john80 said:

    john80 said:

    john80 said:

    From the speech Starner made yesterday- under the theme of 'Make Brexit Work'



    Don't think it is a vote winner though and goes against his more sensible policy of staying clear of all things Brexit. Still, he is safe though, his speech won't get any news coverage because everyone is busy laughing at Peppa Pig references.
    What is a vote winner?

    Sleaze was hitting home. Anything that appears unfair, so Tories looking after Tories e.g. care homes. Not spending enough on the NHS and education is probably another.

    What doesn't work is banging on about Brexit or Boris inappropriately mentioning Peppa Pig.
    So how does an opposition attack the government on issues caused by Brexit or put forward an alternative* vision of post Brexit Britain?

    Or highlight that the thing that Boris was elected to get done is not in fact done

    Do they just not?




    *Obviously I'm being generous here by suggesting this Gov has a vision
    The answer is that it is very difficult to go to the electorate and be pro remain. The reason for this is essentially the flip of Brexit. We have left and therefore anything significantly less hard than what we currently have will come with conditions you can't get enough people to vote for.

    If you transported kier into number ten at best he would spend a couple of months giving ground to individual or group EU nations for little to nothing in return based on his current rhetoric and a significant percentage of the population know this. Essentially Brexit is done and it is a management job of being seen to act in the best interests of the UK as after all it is this group that elects you.
    That's exactly what Starmer said.

    Johnson meanwhile just wants conflict for the drama of it.
    Starmer does not have a coherent answer to the Northern Ireland border. Some of what frost and Johnson are doing is necessary drama.
    Lol
    The fact you can't give a starmer methodology is the funny bit. Same applies to Kingston.
    That's not the funny bit
    Is it the lack of capitalisation on Starmer?
    In which case it should be Starmer Methodology ;)

    either way it seems a strange thing to criticse him for
    If you boys want to vote for starmer when he cannot give a coherent game plan then crack on. Just seems a bit inconsistent with the general Tory bashing that goes on when you say they don't have a plan.
    Have you read or heard his speech?
    Boris or Starmers. Starmer is yet to come up with a credible Northern Irish solution. If you think otherwise feel free to post up a link to this plan.
    It's not Starmers fault there isn't a straightforward solution.

    You can't 5hit the bed then complain that nobody has a perfect solution for cleaning it up without changing the sheets.
    The electorate voted for Brexit. When you are elected and you can't win the argument that Brexit should not happen sometimes you have to work within the electorates parameters. If this means you need a credible plan for moving out of Brexit then this is definitely your job. Was Starmer not a prominent politician during the Brexit campaign.
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 19,159

    john80 said:

    john80 said:

    john80 said:

    john80 said:

    john80 said:

    From the speech Starner made yesterday- under the theme of 'Make Brexit Work'



    Don't think it is a vote winner though and goes against his more sensible policy of staying clear of all things Brexit. Still, he is safe though, his speech won't get any news coverage because everyone is busy laughing at Peppa Pig references.
    What is a vote winner?

    Sleaze was hitting home. Anything that appears unfair, so Tories looking after Tories e.g. care homes. Not spending enough on the NHS and education is probably another.

    What doesn't work is banging on about Brexit or Boris inappropriately mentioning Peppa Pig.
    So how does an opposition attack the government on issues caused by Brexit or put forward an alternative* vision of post Brexit Britain?

    Or highlight that the thing that Boris was elected to get done is not in fact done

    Do they just not?




    *Obviously I'm being generous here by suggesting this Gov has a vision
    The answer is that it is very difficult to go to the electorate and be pro remain. The reason for this is essentially the flip of Brexit. We have left and therefore anything significantly less hard than what we currently have will come with conditions you can't get enough people to vote for.

    If you transported kier into number ten at best he would spend a couple of months giving ground to individual or group EU nations for little to nothing in return based on his current rhetoric and a significant percentage of the population know this. Essentially Brexit is done and it is a management job of being seen to act in the best interests of the UK as after all it is this group that elects you.
    That's exactly what Starmer said.

    Johnson meanwhile just wants conflict for the drama of it.
    Starmer does not have a coherent answer to the Northern Ireland border. Some of what frost and Johnson are doing is necessary drama.
    Lol
    The fact you can't give a starmer methodology is the funny bit. Same applies to Kingston.
    That's not the funny bit
    Is it the lack of capitalisation on Starmer?
    In which case it should be Starmer Methodology ;)

    either way it seems a strange thing to criticse him for
    If you boys want to vote for starmer when he cannot give a coherent game plan then crack on. Just seems a bit inconsistent with the general Tory bashing that goes on when you say they don't have a plan.
    Have you read or heard his speech?
    Boris or Starmers. Starmer is yet to come up with a credible Northern Irish solution. If you think otherwise feel free to post up a link to this plan.
    Starmer
    Wasting your time. There is no solution that will keep all parties happy. Best solution is least bad. Least bad invariably is the one that affects the proposer the least.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • tailwindhometailwindhome Posts: 17,384
    These NI border issues were solved continously from 1993 to 2021 when this Government decided to unsolve them.

    It's a bit much to criticise the opposition for not having a solution acceptable to the Government
    Believe that a farther shore
    Is reachable from here.
    Believe in miracles
    And cures and healing wells
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 24,091
    pblakeney said:

    john80 said:

    john80 said:

    john80 said:

    john80 said:

    john80 said:

    From the speech Starner made yesterday- under the theme of 'Make Brexit Work'



    Don't think it is a vote winner though and goes against his more sensible policy of staying clear of all things Brexit. Still, he is safe though, his speech won't get any news coverage because everyone is busy laughing at Peppa Pig references.
    What is a vote winner?

    Sleaze was hitting home. Anything that appears unfair, so Tories looking after Tories e.g. care homes. Not spending enough on the NHS and education is probably another.

    What doesn't work is banging on about Brexit or Boris inappropriately mentioning Peppa Pig.
    So how does an opposition attack the government on issues caused by Brexit or put forward an alternative* vision of post Brexit Britain?

    Or highlight that the thing that Boris was elected to get done is not in fact done

    Do they just not?




    *Obviously I'm being generous here by suggesting this Gov has a vision
    The answer is that it is very difficult to go to the electorate and be pro remain. The reason for this is essentially the flip of Brexit. We have left and therefore anything significantly less hard than what we currently have will come with conditions you can't get enough people to vote for.

    If you transported kier into number ten at best he would spend a couple of months giving ground to individual or group EU nations for little to nothing in return based on his current rhetoric and a significant percentage of the population know this. Essentially Brexit is done and it is a management job of being seen to act in the best interests of the UK as after all it is this group that elects you.
    That's exactly what Starmer said.

    Johnson meanwhile just wants conflict for the drama of it.
    Starmer does not have a coherent answer to the Northern Ireland border. Some of what frost and Johnson are doing is necessary drama.
    Lol
    The fact you can't give a starmer methodology is the funny bit. Same applies to Kingston.
    That's not the funny bit
    Is it the lack of capitalisation on Starmer?
    In which case it should be Starmer Methodology ;)

    either way it seems a strange thing to criticse him for
    If you boys want to vote for starmer when he cannot give a coherent game plan then crack on. Just seems a bit inconsistent with the general Tory bashing that goes on when you say they don't have a plan.
    Have you read or heard his speech?
    Boris or Starmers. Starmer is yet to come up with a credible Northern Irish solution. If you think otherwise feel free to post up a link to this plan.
    Starmer
    Wasting your time. There is no solution that will keep all parties happy. Best solution is least bad. Least bad invariably is the one that affects the proposer the least.
    The least bad makes Brexit look bad though...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 19,159
    ddraver said:

    pblakeney said:

    john80 said:

    john80 said:

    john80 said:

    john80 said:

    john80 said:

    From the speech Starner made yesterday- under the theme of 'Make Brexit Work'



    Don't think it is a vote winner though and goes against his more sensible policy of staying clear of all things Brexit. Still, he is safe though, his speech won't get any news coverage because everyone is busy laughing at Peppa Pig references.
    What is a vote winner?

    Sleaze was hitting home. Anything that appears unfair, so Tories looking after Tories e.g. care homes. Not spending enough on the NHS and education is probably another.

    What doesn't work is banging on about Brexit or Boris inappropriately mentioning Peppa Pig.
    So how does an opposition attack the government on issues caused by Brexit or put forward an alternative* vision of post Brexit Britain?

    Or highlight that the thing that Boris was elected to get done is not in fact done

    Do they just not?




    *Obviously I'm being generous here by suggesting this Gov has a vision
    The answer is that it is very difficult to go to the electorate and be pro remain. The reason for this is essentially the flip of Brexit. We have left and therefore anything significantly less hard than what we currently have will come with conditions you can't get enough people to vote for.

    If you transported kier into number ten at best he would spend a couple of months giving ground to individual or group EU nations for little to nothing in return based on his current rhetoric and a significant percentage of the population know this. Essentially Brexit is done and it is a management job of being seen to act in the best interests of the UK as after all it is this group that elects you.
    That's exactly what Starmer said.

    Johnson meanwhile just wants conflict for the drama of it.
    Starmer does not have a coherent answer to the Northern Ireland border. Some of what frost and Johnson are doing is necessary drama.
    Lol
    The fact you can't give a starmer methodology is the funny bit. Same applies to Kingston.
    That's not the funny bit
    Is it the lack of capitalisation on Starmer?
    In which case it should be Starmer Methodology ;)

    either way it seems a strange thing to criticse him for
    If you boys want to vote for starmer when he cannot give a coherent game plan then crack on. Just seems a bit inconsistent with the general Tory bashing that goes on when you say they don't have a plan.
    Have you read or heard his speech?
    Boris or Starmers. Starmer is yet to come up with a credible Northern Irish solution. If you think otherwise feel free to post up a link to this plan.
    Starmer
    Wasting your time. There is no solution that will keep all parties happy. Best solution is least bad. Least bad invariably is the one that affects the proposer the least.
    The least bad makes Brexit look bad though...
    Well, there was that thread about Brexit bonuses.
    How’s that going?
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 24,091
    Not so bad for a few places in the EU...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • john80 said:



    Starmer does not have a coherent answer to the Northern Ireland border. Some of what frost and Johnson are doing is necessary drama.

    ok. Johnson said there was no question of us leaving the single market. Then he negotiated a withdrawal agreement, we left the sm/cu and got the NI protocol, which has created the NI problem (actually a problem for the tories and DUP, NI is doing well with the protocol). Johnson negotiated this, but apparently didn't understand the protocol, or didn't read it, or just doesn't care. So what is Johnson's plan? Who knows? Not even Johnson. There is a simple solution to the NI issue, join the sm/cu, which is the sort of arrangement Corbyn/Labour were supporting. If anyone needs a plan, it's Johnson, not Labour.
  • john80 said:

    john80 said:

    john80 said:

    john80 said:

    john80 said:

    From the speech Starner made yesterday- under the theme of 'Make Brexit Work'



    Don't think it is a vote winner though and goes against his more sensible policy of staying clear of all things Brexit. Still, he is safe though, his speech won't get any news coverage because everyone is busy laughing at Peppa Pig references.
    What is a vote winner?

    Sleaze was hitting home. Anything that appears unfair, so Tories looking after Tories e.g. care homes. Not spending enough on the NHS and education is probably another.

    What doesn't work is banging on about Brexit or Boris inappropriately mentioning Peppa Pig.
    So how does an opposition attack the government on issues caused by Brexit or put forward an alternative* vision of post Brexit Britain?

    Or highlight that the thing that Boris was elected to get done is not in fact done

    Do they just not?




    *Obviously I'm being generous here by suggesting this Gov has a vision
    The answer is that it is very difficult to go to the electorate and be pro remain. The reason for this is essentially the flip of Brexit. We have left and therefore anything significantly less hard than what we currently have will come with conditions you can't get enough people to vote for.

    If you transported kier into number ten at best he would spend a couple of months giving ground to individual or group EU nations for little to nothing in return based on his current rhetoric and a significant percentage of the population know this. Essentially Brexit is done and it is a management job of being seen to act in the best interests of the UK as after all it is this group that elects you.
    That's exactly what Starmer said.

    Johnson meanwhile just wants conflict for the drama of it.
    Starmer does not have a coherent answer to the Northern Ireland border. Some of what frost and Johnson are doing is necessary drama.
    Lol
    The fact you can't give a starmer methodology is the funny bit. Same applies to Kingston.
    That's not the funny bit
    Is it the lack of capitalisation on Starmer?
    In which case it should be Starmer Methodology ;)

    either way it seems a strange thing to criticse him for
    If you boys want to vote for starmer when he cannot give a coherent game plan then crack on. Just seems a bit inconsistent with the general Tory bashing that goes on when you say they don't have a plan.
    Have you read or heard his speech?
    Boris or Starmers. Starmer is yet to come up with a credible Northern Irish solution. If you think otherwise feel free to post up a link to this plan.
    Johnson didn't really do a speech, just chatted about how great a tourist attraction a couple of hundred miles away is.

    I meant Starmer's speech - have you read it?
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 24,091
    Well hello snail..!!
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • briantrumpetbriantrumpet Posts: 10,163
    ddraver said:

    Well hello snail..!!

    As long as there's no confusion...


  • john80john80 Posts: 2,965

    These NI border issues were solved continously from 1993 to 2021 when this Government decided to unsolve them.

    It's a bit much to criticise the opposition for not having a solution acceptable to the Government

    They don't have a suction acceptable to the electorate. This is the group they might want to spend their time convincing that they have a credible plan. Kind of a key job skill.
  • john80john80 Posts: 2,965

    john80 said:

    john80 said:

    john80 said:

    john80 said:

    john80 said:

    From the speech Starner made yesterday- under the theme of 'Make Brexit Work'



    Don't think it is a vote winner though and goes against his more sensible policy of staying clear of all things Brexit. Still, he is safe though, his speech won't get any news coverage because everyone is busy laughing at Peppa Pig references.
    What is a vote winner?

    Sleaze was hitting home. Anything that appears unfair, so Tories looking after Tories e.g. care homes. Not spending enough on the NHS and education is probably another.

    What doesn't work is banging on about Brexit or Boris inappropriately mentioning Peppa Pig.
    So how does an opposition attack the government on issues caused by Brexit or put forward an alternative* vision of post Brexit Britain?

    Or highlight that the thing that Boris was elected to get done is not in fact done

    Do they just not?




    *Obviously I'm being generous here by suggesting this Gov has a vision
    The answer is that it is very difficult to go to the electorate and be pro remain. The reason for this is essentially the flip of Brexit. We have left and therefore anything significantly less hard than what we currently have will come with conditions you can't get enough people to vote for.

    If you transported kier into number ten at best he would spend a couple of months giving ground to individual or group EU nations for little to nothing in return based on his current rhetoric and a significant percentage of the population know this. Essentially Brexit is done and it is a management job of being seen to act in the best interests of the UK as after all it is this group that elects you.
    That's exactly what Starmer said.

    Johnson meanwhile just wants conflict for the drama of it.
    Starmer does not have a coherent answer to the Northern Ireland border. Some of what frost and Johnson are doing is necessary drama.
    Lol
    The fact you can't give a starmer methodology is the funny bit. Same applies to Kingston.
    That's not the funny bit
    Is it the lack of capitalisation on Starmer?
    In which case it should be Starmer Methodology ;)

    either way it seems a strange thing to criticse him for
    If you boys want to vote for starmer when he cannot give a coherent game plan then crack on. Just seems a bit inconsistent with the general Tory bashing that goes on when you say they don't have a plan.
    Have you read or heard his speech?
    Boris or Starmers. Starmer is yet to come up with a credible Northern Irish solution. If you think otherwise feel free to post up a link to this plan.
    Johnson didn't really do a speech, just chatted about how great a tourist attraction a couple of hundred miles away is.

    I meant Starmer's speech - have you read it?
    Let's take his new veterinary agreement. This will require the UK to follow product standards and farming practices of the EU to pull this off As this would be the only inspection criteria that the EU would accept. I am sure the farming community will have no issues with this.

    He waffles about trust matters in International trade. International trade is mainly about self interest. If it was based on trust we would not deal with half the government's we do.and France would be high on the list.

    The rest of his speech is about making Brexit work by essentially following EU standards. It's a shame the UK electorate is unlikely to go for this. Not will it actually benefit UK business in the long run.

    So in summary if I wanted the lightest of Brexit and essentially follow all EU rules with no say in forming them then yes Starmer would be the guy. However most people both remainers and leavers would rationally take the view that this is below remaining in the EU and smacks of a lack of commitment or ambition.
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 20,033
    edited November 2021
    Glad you've read it now, and you see it has a credible argument for agreeing common standards, that you disagree with. It's rational, would save British business money by removing dual approvals, and would help remove artists to trade between gb and ni.

    As I recall, close alignment on standards was always the argument used by brexiters for why a deal would be so easy back when it was going to be the easiest deal in history.

    Which standards are we now looking to dramatically reduce that would cause problems? Or is the objection purely that it pools too much sovereignty?
  • ProssPross Posts: 31,647
    Yeah, but what suction is acceptable to the electorate?
  • briantrumpetbriantrumpet Posts: 10,163
    Pross said:

    Yeah, but what suction is acceptable to the electorate?

    I'm anti Vax.
  • JezyboyJezyboy Posts: 1,482
    Is this the same electorate that vote to leave by a very narrow margin and as the oldies pass on, is becoming more remainer-y.

    It would seem quite funny that brexiters are simultaneously terrified of a second referendum, but so confident of their electoral superiority that they feel that only a hard brexit Labour candidate would stand any chance.
  • pangolinpangolin Posts: 4,509
    The unthinkable unacceptable Brexit John describes sounds an awful lot like the one the leave campaign started with.
    Genesis Croix de Fer
    Cube Attain
  • I find the Brexiteers recent concern for the peace process in NI very noble and humbling. Shame they have dismissed all warnings about the peace process for the last 5 years as Project Fear.

    I think they should quit their whining about the protocol, the utter snowflakes. They lost get on with it.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 61,012 Lives Here
    pangolin said:

    The unthinkable unacceptable Brexit John describes sounds an awful lot like the one the leave campaign started with.

    According to Bally this doesn't matter as Cameron said that leaving *would* end up with all this stuff, so the electorate knew.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 16,205
    Jezyboy said:

    Is this the same electorate that vote to leave by a very narrow margin and as the oldies pass on, is becoming more remainer-y.

    It would seem quite funny that brexiters are simultaneously terrified of a second referendum, but so confident of their electoral superiority that they feel that only a hard brexit Labour candidate would stand any chance.

    The remain/leave split is not distrubuted evenly, so there are far more leave seats.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 61,012 Lives Here


    Tell you what, Brexit is really demonstrating how a nation can punch above its weight by participating in the EU (in this instance, Ireland)
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 61,012 Lives Here
    john80 said:

    -


    He waffles about trust matters in International trade. International trade is mainly about self interest. If it was based on trust we would not deal with half the government's we do.and France would be high on the list.

    This paragraph is such b*llocks.


  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 22,340

    john80 said:

    -


    He waffles about trust matters in International trade. International trade is mainly about self interest. If it was based on trust we would not deal with half the government's we do.and France would be high on the list.

    This paragraph is such b*llocks.


    A snowflake in a blizzard.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • john80john80 Posts: 2,965

    john80 said:

    -


    He waffles about trust matters in International trade. International trade is mainly about self interest. If it was based on trust we would not deal with half the government's we do.and France would be high on the list.

    This paragraph is such b*llocks.


    Only in your mind where you purposely choose to ignore inconsistencies in what other nations say and what they do. Yet choose to put the UK under the microscope. So when Macron says France is doing everything to stop migrants crossing but yet we see pictures of coppers standing on a beach watching people with a rather unseaworthy vessel leaving. Do you believe him. An act as simple as puncturing the boat would result in failure of the attempt.

  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 61,012 Lives Here
    Are you arguing about trade or handling migrants seeking asylum?
  • briantrumpetbriantrumpet Posts: 10,163

    Are you arguing about trade or handling migrants seeking asylum?


    People.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 61,012 Lives Here
    edited November 2021

    Are you arguing about trade or handling migrants seeking asylum?


    People.
    Sure.

    Out of interest, for the "should go to the first safe country they arrive at" (not a legal or treaty requirement or obligation)for a nation surrounded by water, from what countries would the UK accept asylum seekers from?
  • JezyboyJezyboy Posts: 1,482

    Are you arguing about trade or handling migrants seeking asylum?


    People.
    Sure.

    Out of interest, for the "should go to the first safe country they arrive at" (not a legal or treaty requirement or obligation)for a nation surrounded by water, from what countries would the UK accept asylum seekers from?
    I beleive that's just a happy coincidence.
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 22,340

    Are you arguing about trade or handling migrants seeking asylum?


    People.
    Sure.

    Out of interest, for the "should go to the first safe country they arrive at" (not a legal or treaty requirement or obligation)for a nation surrounded by water, from what countries would the UK accept asylum seekers from?
    Bingo.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
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