This Maddy McCann saga

dsmiff · May 2007

We discussed this the other day whilst at a friends BBQ. One mother was adamant she would never do such a thing, we all agreed how irresponsible it was. We carried on talking and drinking our wine and lager whilst our children played just round the corner, I think......

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Unknown · May 2007

That's a good example, I mean, sure you kinda knew where they were and you could keep an eye, but if someone set out with the intention of getting them, short of having them constantly by your side, there ain't much you can do.
Yes, the McCanns might have made it a bit more diffifcult for the whatsanames who took her, but they could not really have prevented it.

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scott mcavennie · May 2007

If three children were left alone in an apartment while the parents went out for a meal and one of the children drank a bottle of bleach, played with matches, pulled the kettle off the side and scalded themselves severely or managed to injure/kill themselves/each other in any one of the hundreds of household incidents that you can envisage, would you have sympathy for the parents?

Yet there is sympathy because someone came in and kidnapped one of them - something they would have found a lot more difficult to do had the parents been where they were supposed to be - in the flat. And the reason for the sympathy is because someone, if they really wanted to, could get into your house or garden and kidnap your child while your back is turned?

Madness.

Any parent's worst nightmare is that and we are all aware that if someone really wanted to kidnap your child they would try to get into your house etc. I accept that, and just try to make the scenarios where my son could get snatched as limited as possible. What I do not do is leave him in the house unsupervised, let alone in an apartment abroad while I swan off on a fecking jolly.

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Unknown · May 2007

I see parents acting irresponsible everyday.To many people have the (it wont happen to me syndrome)

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dsmiff · May 2007

I hope I would not leave my children unattended in a room, more for the fear of fire etc than abduction.

I accidentally left my sons bedroom window open last night, I always close it for fear of someone coming through (climbing on the conservatory roof), scared me a bit!

It really breaks my heart to see what they are going through right now. We almost lost our eldest child, he chocked on his vomit whilst we were watching a movie on downstairs, we could not hear him. It was just a coincidence we popped upstairs and found him in his bed unconscious and turning blue.

We went on a hugh guilt trip over that.

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Unknown · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by scott mcavennie

If three children were left alone in an apartment while the parents went out for a meal and one of the children drank a bottle of bleach, played with matches, pulled the kettle off the side and scalded themselves severely or managed to injure/kill themselves/each other in any one of the hundreds of household incidents that you can envisage, would you have sympathy for the parents?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes I would.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Yet there is sympathy because someone came in and kidnapped one of them -... Madness.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No, I have sympathy for them because they've lost their little girl. You might call it madness, I would call it compassion.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Any parent's worst nightmare is that and we are all aware that if someone really wanted to kidnap your child they would try to get into your house etc. I accept that, and just try to make the scenarios where my son could get snatched as limited as possible. What I do not do is leave him in the house unsupervised, let alone in an apartment abroad while I swan off on a fecking jolly.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'm sure it is a great comfort to you. To know that he is as safe as he can possibly be all the time.

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scott mcavennie · May 2007

It is a great comfort, knowing that my son is not left unsupervised. I have earned that comfort by ensuring that he is as safe as he can be under the circumstances.

I have sympathy for the little girl, I have very little sympathy for her irresponsible parents. HTH.

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saz · May 2007

It seems to me that there is nothing many parents like more than the opportunity to critisise other parents. It seems to go hand in hand with this generations need to turn every aspect of life into a competition and I for one think it's quite sad. We ALL make errors of judgement, some of us knowingly, some of us drift through life taking risks we seem to be unaware of.
I hold my hand up and say I have on occasion driven too fast with my kids in the car, misjudged an overtaking manouevre and got away with it, and learned from it.Lucky me.
I just hope Maddy shows up but I dont think she will. I dont think any trace of her will ever be found. Her parents will suffer unimaginably for that and will never take a similar risk again. Also I would imagine many other parents who take risks like this will now think twice.

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Hamishwmb · May 2007

That's a very honest response, saz, especially for this thread.

Why wouldn't I surprised if one of the obviously flawless, perfect parents in this thread contacts the child protection services as a result of your honesty...? Provided that they can reach their phone from the high horse.

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streako · May 2007

You could also argue that your mountain biking escapades put you in a potentially dangerous situation time and time again. Does this also make you a bad parent because one day you may have a nasty accident and be unable to be there for your kids?

I think the parents of Maddy will be going through enough at the moment, and maybe will have to live with that decision to leave the girl alone for the rest of their lives.

I dont think it is for anyone else to judge them.

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geeteewmb · May 2007

Just to play devil's advocate:

A colleague of mine over lunch today made the following point - "I wonder if pubilc sentiment towards the parents would be the same if they weren't seemingly well educated middle-class doctors, and instead were a lower/working class couple unemployed and living on benefits who rather than went for a meal and a bottle of wine, were instead down at the resort bar getting drunk."

"Hopefully everyone will be waiting for me at the top of the climb/descent/flat bit"

Hamishwmb · May 2007

Allan - they are GPs. If they are typical of most of the GPs I know, they'd likely be getting just as drunk as the lower social classes. [;)]

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"Hamish, that is one of the most sensible posts i've read on this forum!" - Futureboy 21/05/2007 06:31:46 

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geeteewmb · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Hamish

Allan - they are GPs. If they are typical of most of the GPs I know, they'd likely be getting just as drunk as the lower social classes. [;)]

--

"Hamish, that is one of the most sensible posts i've read on this forum!" - Futureboy 21/05/2007 06:31:46 

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<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">LOL @ Hamish.

Her point did make me think though. A few of my friends on the Times and Guardian have begun to make similar observations though.

"Hopefully everyone will be waiting for me at the top of the climb/descent/flat bit"

Hamishwmb · May 2007

I think someone has raised this before and it's probably true that there is a bit more support because they are middle class. I also think that, if they were a lower social class couple on benefits, having a meal in the bar with drink but not getting drunk they would still have been judged in a less sypathetic way. I sadly think that's the way society and the media would treat them, whether they were totally irresponsible or not.

--

"Hamish, that is one of the most sensible posts i've read on this forum!" - Futureboy 21/05/2007 06:31:46 

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guilliano · May 2007

I'm not a parent, but I still think they were completely irresponsible and no matter what they are going through personally they should be punished by social services. If they had committed an offence such as drink driving (another irresponsible act) and killed their child (by accident) they would have been punished for reckless endangerment, drunk driving, manslaughter and anything else the courts could throw at them.

I also believe that had this not been a middle class family earning a lot of money, but instead an unemployed/low wage family the authorites would have taken the other 2 kids away from them by now.

Yes I feel for them... they have lost a child and have no idea if she is being looked after well, suffering pain, dead, alive or going through any number of unspeakable experiences. But that does not change the fact they should NOT have left 3 very young children alone in a flat while they went for a night out and they should be brought up on charges of being irresponsible parents and have their twins taken from them because of this!

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Edit: PS.... I am a sort of step parent to a 7 year old and would NEVER leave her alone in the house even to go to the shop, let alone to go out to a pub a few hundred metres away

geeteewmb · May 2007

I happen to agree with you Hamish.

"Hopefully everyone will be waiting for me at the top of the climb/descent/flat bit"

scott mcavennie · May 2007

I'm far from being a perfect parent Hamish. I accepted that a long time ago.

I just can not understand putting three children at risk like that for the sake of a meal.

I'm sorry if that makes me appear to be on a high horse, but there you go. I wouldn't do what they did and have very little sympathy for them because of it.

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guilliano · May 2007

If I was on a high horse I'd take my mobile so I can still call social services

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scott mcavennie · May 2007

And how would you look to all the people that can't afford or are too old to use mobiles, guillano? Have some compassion, man.

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guilliano · May 2007

All unemployed people have a pay & go mobile so they can recieve calls while they sit in the town centre/pub shouting "call me back, I ain't got no f***ing credit". The elderly wouldn't have a 3 year old kid to leave alone in a flat whilst abroad on holiday.... they'd be in a caravan in Skegness!

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scott mcavennie · May 2007

I've actually taught my son to use a contract mobile phone, with its own WAP system so that he can contact social services himself by a variety of means.

I also bought him a horse. A high one.

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guilliano · May 2007

OT Scott.... when WAP first got launched it was nicknamed CWAP in most of the mobile shops I knew

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Hamishwmb · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by scott mcavennie

I'm far from being a perfect parent Hamish. I accepted that a long time ago.

I just can not understand putting three children at risk like that for the sake of a meal.

I'm sorry if that makes me appear to be on a high horse, but there you go. I wouldn't do what they did and have very little sympathy for them because of it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It's not just you. [;)]

I can understand your point of view. Mt point is that risks are a big part of all of your lives. Driving, crossing the street, mountain biking (my GF moans at me sometimes when I come back having crashed on the bike) and looking after kids. There are clearly irresponsible actions and those that are less so and in a grey area. On face value I think that this is in the latter. How can we simply decide what is 'clearly irresponsible'? Shall we pick an arbitrary distance from the kids, say the McAvennie distance, and if anything happens when kids are outside this distance then we'll hold the parents totally responsible, charge them in a criminal court and take the rest of their children away and put them in care (which frequently results in the kids having problems later in life)? We don't know all the facts so we can't really judge things too much. Maybe they do this sort of thing all the time, maybe they don't. I don't think it's so clear cut to say that they are totally irresponsible.

The high horse remark was due to the seemingly faultless persona you've portrayed, whether you mean to or not. I think that's unrealistic. I may have a tiny bit of bias as I am also a dotor and am looking at things from a risk management point of view as I suspect that they would have. They'd probably have made a decision, based around facts such as knowing their kids keep good health, usually sleep well overnight, abductions are very rare and they were in a supposedly safe environment, nearby. That decision has come back to bite them and I think only the most callous of us couldn't feel sorry for them, however bad their judgement was.

--

"Hamish, that is one of the most sensible posts i've read on this forum!" - Futureboy 21/05/2007 06:31:46 

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Hamishwmb · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by scott mcavennie

I've actually taught my son to use a contract mobile phone, with its own WAP system so that he can contact social services himself by a variety of means.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'm sure you're aware that it's possible to track kids (and anyone else for that matter) through their mobile phone signals. The sites say they're "100% safe". How can it be entirely safe? That's not possible. Surely someone could find a way to locate them if they knew their number and a bit about hacking? I think that's rather irresponsible of you, placing them at such a risk. Shame on you. [;)]

--

"Hamish, that is one of the most sensible posts i've read on this forum!" - Futureboy 21/05/2007 06:31:46 

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guilliano · May 2007

Hamish. There is feeling sympathy and then there is judging them. The 2 are not mutually exclusive. I feel for them, but think they were irresponsible in leaving the kids alone like that. It's Maddy and the twins I feel more sorry for as they had no choice in the matter. The parents on the other hand made a very bad choice to leave 3 sleeping children alone. That is my judgement as someone who is responsible for a child, although not my own. I also think they are taking some very bad advice in publishing their visit schedules while they are still abroad as it makes them come accross as selfish, sympathy seeking parents when they really just want to get their child back.

Again I ask why they should not be charged though? If their child had died in the flat through lack of supervision they would have been, but because their child is simply "missing" they are being treated as marthyrs and getting nothing but publicity and support

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geeteewmb · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Hamish

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by scott mcavennie

I'm far from being a perfect parent Hamish. I accepted that a long time ago.

I just can not understand putting three children at risk like that for the sake of a meal.

I'm sorry if that makes me appear to be on a high horse, but there you go. I wouldn't do what they did and have very little sympathy for them because of it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It's not just you. [;)]

I can understand your point of view. Mt point is that risks are a big part of all of your lives. Driving, crossing the street, mountain biking (my GF moans at me sometimes when I come back having crashed on the bike) and looking after kids. There are clearly irresponsible actions and those that are less so and in a grey area. On face value I think that this is in the latter. How can we simply decide what is 'clearly irresponsible'? Shall we pick an arbitrary distance from the kids, say the McAvennie distance, and if anything happens when kids are outside this distance then we'll hold the parents totally responsible, charge them in a criminal court and take the rest of their children away and put them in care (which frequently results in the kids having problems later in life)? We don't know all the facts so we can't really judge things too much. Maybe they do this sort of thing all the time, maybe they don't. I don't think it's so clear cut to say that they are totally irresponsible.

The high horse remark was due to the seemingly faultless persona you've portrayed, whether you mean to or not. I think that's unrealistic. I may have a tiny bit of bias as I am also a dotor and am looking at things from a risk management point of view as I suspect that they would have. They'd probably have made a decision, based around facts such as knowing their kids keep good health, usually sleep well overnight, abductions are very rare and they were in a supposedly safe environment, nearby. That decision has come back to bite them and I think only the most callous of us couldn't feel sorry for them, however bad their judgement was.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">It's not often I've agreed with you this many times in one day Hamish - I'm starting to worry myself! [:0]

"Hopefully everyone will be waiting for me at the top of the climb/descent/flat bit"

Hamishwmb · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by guilliano

Hamish. There is feeling sympathy and then there is judging them. The 2 are not mutually exclusive.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That goes without saying.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Again I ask why they should not be charged though?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

What sentence would you pass? I fully agree that should be investigated. However, do you not think they have been already received a life sentence and will have learned from this? What good would happen from taking their children away if they are not "obviously irresponsible" (whatever that is)? Would you rather that their remaining children grew up without ever having contact with them? I'd rather not choose the latter unless I was sure that it was the best alternative for the children. If that is the case then, yes it should go ahead, but isn't there something called being innocent until proven guilty?

--

"Hamish, that is one of the most sensible posts i've read on this forum!" - Futureboy 21/05/2007 06:31:46 

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guilliano · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Hamish

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by guilliano

Hamish. There is feeling sympathy and then there is judging them. The 2 are not mutually exclusive.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That goes without saying.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Again I ask why they should not be charged though?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

What sentence would you pass? I fully agree that should be investigated. However, do you not think they have been already received a life sentence and will have learned from this? What good would happen from taking their children away if they are not "obviously irresponsible" (whatever that is)? Would you rather that their remaining children grew up without ever having contact with them? I'd rather not choose the latter unless I was sure that it was the best alternative for the children. If that is the case then, yes it should go ahead, but isn't there something called being innocent until proven guilty?

--

"Hamish, that is one of the most sensible posts i've read on this forum!" - Futureboy 21/05/2007 06:31:46 

Some of my biking photos flickr - The Flying Pie my bike
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If they had killed a child through drink driving they'd recieve a life sentence of guilt surrounding that, but would still be punished by the courts for being so irresponsible. Why should this be any different?

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Unknown · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Hamish

What sentence would you pass? I fully agree that should be investigated. However, do you not think they have been already received a life sentence and will have learned from this? What good would happen from taking their children away if they are not "obviously irresponsible" (whatever that is)? Would you rather that their remaining children grew up without ever having contact with them? I'd rather not choose the latter unless I was sure that it was the best alternative for the children. If that is the case then, yes it should go ahead, but isn't there something called being innocent until proven guilty?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Also, sentencing is punishment and deterrent. I would have thought that, in this case, the deterrent to other parents would be the chance of losing their children if they leave them alone, not what punishment they might receive if they do so.

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Hamishwmb · May 2007

I don't seem to remember them drink driving and killing their child. That's a separate offence. But seeing as we're using analogies, would it be as clear cut if they were at a barbque with their kids playing a couple of hundred yards away in the street and someone ran them over and killed them?

You can't simply say that they should definitely be charged until you know all the facts. I'm not disagreeing entirely - they should be charged if they are found to be totally irresponsible - but think about what you're saying. It almost amounts to a witch hunt.

--

"Hamish, that is one of the most sensible posts i've read on this forum!" - Futureboy 21/05/2007 06:31:46 

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This Maddy McCann saga

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