England Goes Smoke Free

blacksun · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mongooseTE17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by UH DH

Yeah, but drinking and eating McDonalds doesn't give bystanders cancer.

QUERTY QUERTY QUERTY

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by the abductor
++kschhh-schhh++ Madeline, I AM your father ++kschhh-schhh++<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Ding ding.. we have a winner!
Couldn't have said it better myself.

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<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Not every smoker or passive smoker contracts cancer.

<hr noshade size="1">
'You don't like smurfs?'

'Fuck those little blue bastards. They look like a town of deformed fetuses that were suffocated and thrown into a mushroom patch'.

Crazy Dave C · June 2007

But I'm not saying to ban smoking. I'm just in agreement with the public smoking ban. If you smoke in your own home away from me that's fine, because it isn't going to affect me, just like the fatties that eat at McDonalds and Burger King everyday, it's only going to damage themselves.

UH DH · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by blacksun

Not every smoker or passive smoker contracts cancer.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yeah. Rolling around naked in a pit full of AIDS infested needles doesn't guarantee you'll get it, but it seriously improves your chances of dying horribly.

QUERTY QUERTY QUERTY

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by the abductor
++kschhh-schhh++ Madeline, I AM your father ++kschhh-schhh++<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

UH DH · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Crazy Dave C

just like the fatties that eat at McDonalds and Burger King everyday, it's only going to damage themselves.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Unless they sit on you.

QUERTY QUERTY QUERTY

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by the abductor
++kschhh-schhh++ Madeline, I AM your father ++kschhh-schhh++<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

blacksun · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by UH DH

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by blacksun

Not every smoker or passive smoker contracts cancer.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yeah. Rolling around naked in a pit full of AIDS infested needles doesn't guarantee you'll get it, but it seriously improves your chances of dying horribly.

QUERTY QUERTY QUERTY

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by the abductor
++kschhh-schhh++ Madeline, I AM your father ++kschhh-schhh++<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Pix?

Like I said earlier... I'm not bothered either way with this ban. I hardly go to bars and clubs anyway.

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'You don't like smurfs?'

'Fuck those little blue bastards. They look like a town of deformed fetuses that were suffocated and thrown into a mushroom patch'.

Kitty · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by blacksun

Passive smoking can be bad for you, but, it doesn't affect everyone. Not everyone will contract cancer of any kind from passive or first hand smoking.

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'You don't like smurfs?'

'Fuck those little blue bastards. They look like a town of deformed fetuses that were suffocated and thrown into a mushroom patch'.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

So hey it's ok if a few people contract cancer and even die, just as long as it's not loads. We should try save as many lives as we can.

And people who say keep out of pubs and clubs, tell me why the fuck I should miss having a good time with my mates and dancing through my college and uni years because of the effect smoking has on me. I have to sit there and breathe in other people smoke, it makes me cough, gives me a awful throat for days after, sore eyes and even sometimes makes me feel sick breathing it in. Why do I have to deal with that when I live a fairly healthy life, hardly any junk food, I don't drink or take any drugs and have enough illness as it is, without having to worry about people smoking around me.

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360 · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">So hey it's ok if a few people contract cancer and even die, just as long as it's not loads. We should try save as many lives as we can.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

well yes! its an acceptable risk.

"I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."

P.s Im not doing that again.

Mike Skinner · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Kitty
And people who say keep out of pubs and clubs, tell me why the fuck I should miss having a good time with my mates and dancing through my college and uni years because of the effect smoking has on me.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

with that attitude, why the fuck should i have to enjoy my night less because there are a tiny minority in the room who get anal about cigarette smoke?

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Crazy Dave C · June 2007

Because cigarette smoke causes cancer and kills people.

UH DH · June 2007

Why not just go in puffing on a stick of dynamite with a filter tip? At least it hurts bystanders less in the long-run.

QUERTY QUERTY QUERTY

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by the abductor
++kschhh-schhh++ Madeline, I AM your father ++kschhh-schhh++<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Mike Skinner · June 2007

This arguement is balls unless you can give me figures that show that anything more than a negligeable number of people recieve any lasting harm from casual passive smoking (in the sense the people don't live in bars and clubs, they visit them for a number of hours a week)

And before kitty jumps in with 'causing harm to any people is too much', then there in-numerable other causes of injury and illness that I would like to bet harm faar faar more people than passive smoking.

If anyone can produce a valid figure that says more than 500 to 1000 people in the UK suffer long term damage from passive smoking, I'll be forced to drop that arguement.

(bare in mind I'm being massively fair here, as 1000 people in the UK population is not so much a drop in the ocean, as the vapur from the drop)

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Kitty · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mike Skinner

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Kitty
And people who say keep out of pubs and clubs, tell me why the fuck I should miss having a good time with my mates and dancing through my college and uni years because of the effect smoking has on me.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

with that attitude, why the fuck should i have to enjoy my night less because there are a tiny minority in the room who get anal about cigarette smoke?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You just should like a selfish self obsessed bastard to me, I may be wrong but how up your self can you be?

At the end of the day the "anal people" as you refer to them aren't going to get disgusting coughs, yellow nails and teeth not to mention the bad breathe, and possibly far worse things, unlike smokers who choose to do something which could not only kill them but kill surrounding people also who often don't have a choice.

No wonder the world is bollocksed up when people can only thing about themselves.

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Kitty · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mike Skinner

And before kitty jumps in with 'causing harm to any people is too much', then there in-numerable other causes of injury and illness that I would like to bet harm faar faar more people than passive smoking.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

So that makes it alright and justifies it? At the end of the day you could be giving someone cancer and killing them, all you smokers could be potentially committing man slaughter?

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Crazy Dave C · June 2007

Does death count as lasting harm? A study was carried out by Konrad Jamrozik of the Imperial College, and found that at least 3600 people a year died due to passive smoking, including one pub or bar worker per week.

nirveous · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by roryf

Passive smoking is dangerous and unhealthy. The reason that the smokers should move outside, rather than the non-smokers move away, is because smoking is unhealthy, and by making it inconvenient for you to smoke, you are being helped to quit. Also, non-smokers outnumber smokers, so it makes sense proportionally, to move the smokers rather than the non-smokers.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
This is exactly what I was going to say.
Also, the Government will want more people to stop smoking, especially at work, imagine the cost to the economy of all those people taking fag breaks. I know this doesn't have anything to do with whether you agree or not, nevertheless, it was probably inevitable.
Basically, smoking is bad, it has NO upsides, it's bloody annoying that it exists in the first place, it should be eradicated, I'm assuming this is what the Government is trying to do.

<hr noshade size="1">The Hardrock

Mike Skinner · June 2007

Kitty, before you hate me for life, I am just argueing for the sake of it, and trying to put forward views to get people talking. xx, but carrying on:

While you may have a distaste for smokers, that could essentially come across as bigoted. Smoknig is fine, because you don't like it makes no difference. It is legal. Until it isn't peoples preferences have little say in it, in the same way my dislike of kids causing grief in the street, doesn't mean they will be forcifully required to stop.

My arguement to you was just that, you said you have a right to go out and enjoy yourself with your friends as you choose to (in a smoke free environment). No-one disagree's.
Smokers have the same right to go enjoy themselves as they choose. Why is your view more important because of a health risk that, as we have seen in previous posts, is minimal compared to many others in life.

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~~Chucker~~ · June 2007

What is so addictive about smoking?
I did once tried a cigarette when I was about 11 and it was disgusting, wrong and made me smell bad!

(If your wondering why I was smoking at the age of 11, I wasn't I got forced to do it by some Chav!)

Mike Skinner · June 2007

I don't find it particularily addictive to be honest. One of the lucky ones that has smoked small amounts of cigarettes for a long period of time.

CRC, I'm not going to call you a fibber, but I don't believe that report is as clear-cut as the figures you've just shown imply. I'm not oing to start quoting because I can't remember acurately enough but I'm sure the number of deaths _directly_ related to passive smoking are tiny.

Nirveous. It does have an upside. People enjoy smoking. It's the same upside any luxury item has, from overly posh cars, to beer, to chocolate biscuits.

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Kitty · June 2007

I have no problem with that but priority should go to people who don't smoke, I agree with the private club houses which are allowed to have smoking but we should be able have the choice which at the moment isn't available.

I don't quite hate you yet, I have strong view on many topics so don't start me off on racism, abortion, sex before marriage and other such catagories, otherwise you'll have me going all night. Anyway, I was a geek a school and went to debate club.

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Mike Skinner · June 2007

so was I and so did I, which is why I enjoy these, and am happy to argue for either side of any arguement just to get people's backs up. The problem with t'internet is you can't smile and go for a pint (or a coke..) afterwards.

My real preference to the whole debacle would be to give pubs the choice. If you run a nice food-based bar in a central party of town, or a dance bar or whatever, then great, make it no smoking, as that is part of the atmosphere.

If you have a little country pub full of locals, or a music venue with a low roof and lots of piercings, then let people smoke.

Why does there have to be a blanket ban, why not let publicans make the choice. At teh end of the day demand leads to supply, so if lots of people want smoke free pubs, tehre will be smoke free pubs. Surely thats how a free market works?

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Anonymous · June 2007

There seems to be an incredulity here towards Mr Fox's statement that there is no genuine scientific links between second hand smoke and cancer.

Sure, there are (obviously) skewed reports from both tobacco companies, and health companies.
BUT
Most other independent studies have actually been pretty inconclusive. It pretty much comes to light that there 'may' be a link between second hand smoke and cancer. 'May' is not, in my opinion, nor in many scientist's opinions, a strong enough outcome of any research, to base laws upon.

Also, it is quite common for results to be skewed (either way) either maliciously, or through a simple slip in research technique.
For example
<hr noshade size="1">
a 1000 people who suffer from cancer were questioned. we also recorded how many of them do not smoke, but have been exposed at some point in time to second hand smoke.
lets say that 500 of them do not smoke, and of them, 490 had been exposed to second hand smoke (SHS).
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From this we could conclude that 100% of non smokers questioned, who were exposed to SHS, were diagnosed with cancer.

This sounds logical enough, until you realise that you can also draw the following conclusions...

98% of questioned non-smokers were diagnosed with cancer, after being exposed to SHS.
50% of cancer sufferers questioned were smokers.
50% of cancer sufferers questioned were non-smokers.
49% of cancer sufferers questioned were non smokers who had been exposed to SHS
only 1% of cancer sufferers questioned were non smokers who had not been exposed to SHS.

Again, logical? yes. straightforward? yes.

HOWEVER.
The crucial error in this experiment would be that ONLY sufferers were questioned.
The figures will be high, because we've only got a sample of people who contracted cancer.
<hr noshade size="1">

The point about all these reports is that they will be skewed, intentionally, or not. Even on scientific review, the methods employed are genuine, and the actual results are real.
The problem is which method is used to represent the findings.

Everybody has a side.
Any scientist who would be involved independently would already have a hypothesis, consciously, or unconsciously, of the outcome. The scientist would not carry out a study if it were not of interest to him.
Therefore, if a scientist is a smoker, he/she will be more likely to reveal the results as being slightly in favour of smokers - whilst still maintaining scientific truth.
If a scientist is a non-smoker, he/she will be more likely to reveal the results as dire - WHILST STILL MAINTAINING SCIENTIFIC TRUTH.

If a scientist has no interest whatsoever in the matter, and is only doing the investigation because he/she is being paid for doing so, then whatever lobby group paid for the research will put it's own twist on the results.

THIS is why I will not blindly accept stated facts and figures. I would rather read the scientific press, and come to my own conclusions (which again, may be skewed by my world view).

And just for the record, yes I am a smoker, I'm not denying that SHS may be a key contributor to health problems, I'm just trying to help explain why Mr Fox has these views, as some of you don't seem to believe that this could be possible.

As for the smoking ban in Wales. Well, I have only been out to the pubs once since it came into force. I just couldn't be arsed with the hassle of going outside all the time - I smoke much more when I'm drunk. However, my lack of drinking has meant that I've lost a stone and a half in weight since the smoking ban has come onto force, and the health benefits seem greater than when I previously stopped smoking for 2 months!

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Mike Skinner · June 2007

^what he said..

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Kitty · June 2007

Anyway Mike, choose you next debate topic and tell me when and what side and I'll have a discussion with you.[;)]

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Ben · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mike Skinner

sucks IMO.
I smoke, I enjoy smoking, I don't want to quit smoking in the short term future, yet now I have to stand in the rain to have a ciggy with my beer because someone else sat near me, then found me offensive, and rather than moving away, got the police to move me (indirectly). How does that figure?

If they ban smoking indoors, they sholud legally force places to provide decent sized sheltered and heated smoking areas outside.

Or alternatively, stop pissing about and just tell England to "toughen the fuck up"

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I agree with every word this man says

.

Anonymous · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mike Skinner
My real preference to the whole debacle would be to give pubs the choice. If you run a nice food-based bar in a central party of town, or a dance bar or whatever, then great, make it no smoking, as that is part of the atmosphere.

If you have a little country pub full of locals, or a music venue with a low roof and lots of piercings, then let people smoke.

Why does there have to be a blanket ban, why not let publicans make the choice. At teh end of the day demand leads to supply, so if lots of people want smoke free pubs, tehre will be smoke free pubs. Surely thats how a free market works?

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<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
BINGO!
This is my exact view on the matter.

My main problem with this whole issue is that at work, we have a strange, somewhat unusual scenario.
When we have bands come into the studio, and say for example, the signer, doesn't smoke. The rest of the band and myself would acknowledge this, and go outside the studio for a snout.

However, when ALL members of the band smoke, none of us would have a problem with smoke, and so no-one got offended, or made uncomfortable.
The studio is air conditioned, and so by the time the next band comes in, possibly with a non-smoker in their midst, the air will be clean. remarkably clean, in fact.
And of course, if we had a band in that didn't smoke, i wouldn't smoke there then either, it's part of our job to make our clients comfortable.

NOW, however, NO ONE is allowed to smoke in the studio. This is an air-conned room, which no-one enters apart from me and the musicians .
We can't even designate the room as a smoking area for the many times where everyone working there is a smoker.
That is just bolloc*s in my view.

Previously we were pretty much free to make our own rules. for example, our other engineer doesn't smoke, so he would ask the bands not to smoke in the studio whilst he was working.
This was never a problem, but NOW, it is.

Oh, and there is a benefit to smoking, I became a really, really uncontrollably angry person last time I tried to stop, I wish I could, but I've already lost a girlfriend over it [8)](she was trying to stop too, and likewise, had a furious temper.

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ToMBeMe · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mike Skinner

I don't find it particularily addictive to be honest. One of the lucky ones that has smoked small amounts of cigarettes for a long period of time.

CRC, I'm not going to call you a fibber, but I don't believe that report is as clear-cut as the figures you've just shown imply. I'm not oing to start quoting because I can't remember acurately enough but I'm sure the number of deaths _directly_ related to passive smoking are tiny.

Nirveous. It does have an upside. People enjoy smoking. It's the same upside any luxury item has, from overly posh cars, to beer, to chocolate biscuits.

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<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">* Hmmmm chocolate biscuit, cancer enducing death stick, the choices*

lakejump · June 2007

all you pric*s who smoke! the idea behind the ban is to prevent the majority non smoking community suffering because of other people smoking inconsideratly in enclosed spaces. and the reason they dont make shelters outside is because they are trying to get people to stop smoking! smokers are wan*ers!

Fantastic Mr Fox · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Kitty

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by blacksun

Passive smoking can be bad for you, but, it doesn't affect everyone. Not everyone will contract cancer of any kind from passive or first hand smoking.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

So hey it's ok if a few people contract cancer and even die, just as long as it's not loads. We should try save as many lives as we can.

And people who say keep out of pubs and clubs, tell me why the fuck I should miss having a good time with my mates and dancing through my college and uni years because of the effect smoking has on me. I have to sit there and breathe in other people smoke, it makes me cough, gives me a awful throat for days after, sore eyes and even sometimes makes me feel sick breathing it in. Why do I have to deal with that when I live a fairly healthy life, hardly any junk food, I don't drink or take any drugs and have enough illness as it is, without having to worry about people smoking around me.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Just a random thought. Should we be trying to save as many lives as we can? Looking at it in a rather brutal way, but doesn't that just mean more pensioners to fuel the pension crisis?
We're overdue an epidemic. Maybe we should legalize Heroin...

Thats all folks!

<hr noshade size="1"><center>I'd rather not.</center>

lakejump · June 2007

mr fox you are a complete wan*er go fu*k an exaust pipe! DI*K!

Fantastic Mr Fox · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by lakejump

all you pric*s who smoke! the idea behind the ban is to prevent the majority non smoking community suffering because of other people smoking inconsideratly in enclosed spaces. and the reason they dont make shelters outside is because they are trying to get people to stop smoking! smokers are wan*ers!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Why are all smokers fumble in the jungleers?

<hr noshade size="1"><center>I'd rather not.</center>

England Goes Smoke Free

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