Today's discussion about the news
Comments
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Doesn't feel like it will take long to wipe Gaza off the map at the current rate.0
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I think they all know this but can't conceive of an alternative.rick_chasey said:
If they get sucked into a long war it'll be fairly ruinous. We've seen with Britain's wars, without an end game for these kinds of wars they are pointless. The leaders go into hiding and just wage war until it ends and they just come back and do exactly the same as before, only loads of people are dead and the place is massively poorer.rjsterry said:
There isn't one. It's just a need to do something partly as a very understandable reaction to a horrific attack and partly to cover Bibi's censored for having let this happen.rick_chasey said:I don’t really know what Israel’s end game is here.
Occupation has proved a failure. No one seems to think they can eradicate hamas. So what happens once the fighting is over?
I can't help thinking the purpose of the original attack was to lure the IDF into years of being picked off a few at a time. I hope the generals have more sense than their political masters.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Yes, though I think/hope a lot of the US support will be contingent on them fleshing this out a bit more.rjsterry said:
I think they all know this but can't conceive of an alternative.rick_chasey said:
If they get sucked into a long war it'll be fairly ruinous. We've seen with Britain's wars, without an end game for these kinds of wars they are pointless. The leaders go into hiding and just wage war until it ends and they just come back and do exactly the same as before, only loads of people are dead and the place is massively poorer.rjsterry said:
There isn't one. It's just a need to do something partly as a very understandable reaction to a horrific attack and partly to cover Bibi's censored for having let this happen.rick_chasey said:I don’t really know what Israel’s end game is here.
Occupation has proved a failure. No one seems to think they can eradicate hamas. So what happens once the fighting is over?
I can't help thinking the purpose of the original attack was to lure the IDF into years of being picked off a few at a time. I hope the generals have more sense than their political masters.
It would just be great if the Palestinians could in some way neuter Hamas and work out some genuine leadership that actually looks after their own interest.
F*ck knows how and I know extremely little about the political structure of Palestine.
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I feel that this is the best solution so far to the Middle East conflict:
https://thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/infinite-number-of-facebook-users-will-eventually-find-perfect-israel-palestine-solution-20231016241328
It's gotta be the way.Sometimes. Maybe. Possibly.
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In the end, it doesn't really matter. Much like the discussion around whether Hamas decapitated babies or merely burnt them alive. In this case, Israel had already hit this hospital, has hit loads of other healthcare facilities, UN schools, refugee camps, safe roads, journalists etc This is on top of a siege which has meant no water. So does it matter who fired this rocket?briantrumpet said:It's still as clear as mud who fired the rocket. All you can work out so far is who is believing which side's spin.
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If you degrade the ability of a state to host a functioning and robust system of government it will be more liable to being hijacked by interested neighbours for their own ends.rick_chasey said:
Yes, though I think/hope a lot of the US support will be contingent on them fleshing this out a bit more.rjsterry said:
I think they all know this but can't conceive of an alternative.rick_chasey said:
If they get sucked into a long war it'll be fairly ruinous. We've seen with Britain's wars, without an end game for these kinds of wars they are pointless. The leaders go into hiding and just wage war until it ends and they just come back and do exactly the same as before, only loads of people are dead and the place is massively poorer.rjsterry said:
There isn't one. It's just a need to do something partly as a very understandable reaction to a horrific attack and partly to cover Bibi's censored for having let this happen.rick_chasey said:I don’t really know what Israel’s end game is here.
Occupation has proved a failure. No one seems to think they can eradicate hamas. So what happens once the fighting is over?
I can't help thinking the purpose of the original attack was to lure the IDF into years of being picked off a few at a time. I hope the generals have more sense than their political masters.
It would just be great if the Palestinians could in some way neuter Hamas and work out some genuine leadership that actually looks after their own interest.
F*ck knows how and I know extremely little about the political structure of Palestine.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Has the U.S. ever fleshed out an end game in the Middle East?rick_chasey said:
Yes, though I think/hope a lot of the US support will be contingent on them fleshing this out a bit more.rjsterry said:
I think they all know this but can't conceive of an alternative.rick_chasey said:
If they get sucked into a long war it'll be fairly ruinous. We've seen with Britain's wars, without an end game for these kinds of wars they are pointless. The leaders go into hiding and just wage war until it ends and they just come back and do exactly the same as before, only loads of people are dead and the place is massively poorer.rjsterry said:
There isn't one. It's just a need to do something partly as a very understandable reaction to a horrific attack and partly to cover Bibi's censored for having let this happen.rick_chasey said:I don’t really know what Israel’s end game is here.
Occupation has proved a failure. No one seems to think they can eradicate hamas. So what happens once the fighting is over?
I can't help thinking the purpose of the original attack was to lure the IDF into years of being picked off a few at a time. I hope the generals have more sense than their political masters.
Or anywhere come to that.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
There were demonstrations against Mahmoud Abbas in the West Bank yesterday. The elections were postponed, because they expected Hamas to win, so it is more likely to go the other way.rick_chasey said:
Yes, though I think/hope a lot of the US support will be contingent on them fleshing this out a bit more.rjsterry said:
I think they all know this but can't conceive of an alternative.rick_chasey said:
If they get sucked into a long war it'll be fairly ruinous. We've seen with Britain's wars, without an end game for these kinds of wars they are pointless. The leaders go into hiding and just wage war until it ends and they just come back and do exactly the same as before, only loads of people are dead and the place is massively poorer.rjsterry said:
There isn't one. It's just a need to do something partly as a very understandable reaction to a horrific attack and partly to cover Bibi's censored for having let this happen.rick_chasey said:I don’t really know what Israel’s end game is here.
Occupation has proved a failure. No one seems to think they can eradicate hamas. So what happens once the fighting is over?
I can't help thinking the purpose of the original attack was to lure the IDF into years of being picked off a few at a time. I hope the generals have more sense than their political masters.
It would just be great if the Palestinians could in some way neuter Hamas and work out some genuine leadership that actually looks after their own interest.
F*ck knows how and I know extremely little about the political structure of Palestine.
It's a bit of an exaggeration, but no one looks at slave rebellions now and says if only they had found a better leader.0 -
Only one that I know of actually succeeded (Haiti) so maybe they should have.TheBigBean said:
There were demonstrations against Mahmoud Abbas in the West Bank yesterday. The elections were postponed, because they expected Hamas to win, so it is more likely to go the other way.rick_chasey said:
Yes, though I think/hope a lot of the US support will be contingent on them fleshing this out a bit more.rjsterry said:
I think they all know this but can't conceive of an alternative.rick_chasey said:
If they get sucked into a long war it'll be fairly ruinous. We've seen with Britain's wars, without an end game for these kinds of wars they are pointless. The leaders go into hiding and just wage war until it ends and they just come back and do exactly the same as before, only loads of people are dead and the place is massively poorer.rjsterry said:
There isn't one. It's just a need to do something partly as a very understandable reaction to a horrific attack and partly to cover Bibi's censored for having let this happen.rick_chasey said:I don’t really know what Israel’s end game is here.
Occupation has proved a failure. No one seems to think they can eradicate hamas. So what happens once the fighting is over?
I can't help thinking the purpose of the original attack was to lure the IDF into years of being picked off a few at a time. I hope the generals have more sense than their political masters.
It would just be great if the Palestinians could in some way neuter Hamas and work out some genuine leadership that actually looks after their own interest.
F*ck knows how and I know extremely little about the political structure of Palestine.
It's a bit of an exaggeration, but no one looks at slave rebellions now and says if only they had found a better leader.
I think I mentioned being cursed with ineffectual leaders earlier. Of course there's little support for Abbas when he has so little to show. It's very easy to promise to smite the enemy and carry that through when Iran have your back. It's not worked out any better for those that voted for Hamas previously.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Biden saying the hospital was 'done by the other team'. If he's going to go making comments like that he is probably better turning around and going home, it's almost Trumpian language. He also went on to effectively say there's lots of different opinions and no-one is really sure.0
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It certainly seemed to matter to certain people that they had done it. One guesses that they'll be more forgiving of Hamas making a mistake with a deadly weapon than Israel.TheBigBean said:
In the end, it doesn't really matter. Much like the discussion around whether Hamas decapitated babies or merely burnt them alive. In this case, Israel had already hit this hospital, has hit loads of other healthcare facilities, UN schools, refugee camps, safe roads, journalists etc This is on top of a siege which has meant no water. So does it matter who fired this rocket?briantrumpet said:It's still as clear as mud who fired the rocket. All you can work out so far is who is believing which side's spin.
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Either scenario is horrendous and the fact that either one is credible shows what a f*cking sh!tshow the whole thing is.
Increasingly inclined to think the major powers should get the respective leaders in a room, bollock them for being such a f*ck up, and withhold all money & support till they sort themselves out. Iran, US, whoever.
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Even Israel aren't accusing Hamas. They are blaming Islamic Jihad.Jezyboy said:
It certainly seemed to matter to certain people that they had done it. One guesses that they'll be more forgiving of Hamas making a mistake with a deadly weapon than Israel.TheBigBean said:
In the end, it doesn't really matter. Much like the discussion around whether Hamas decapitated babies or merely burnt them alive. In this case, Israel had already hit this hospital, has hit loads of other healthcare facilities, UN schools, refugee camps, safe roads, journalists etc This is on top of a siege which has meant no water. So does it matter who fired this rocket?briantrumpet said:It's still as clear as mud who fired the rocket. All you can work out so far is who is believing which side's spin.
But yes, lots of focus on this one for some reason. Perhaps due to the number of reported deaths.0 -
There's been a lot of talk about double standards. Expecting an organisation that exists to destroy another country to abide by certain standards strikes me as a bit pointless but we do generally attempt to hold governments to a high standard. So in that sense there is a double standard but it's no different than the standard one would expect any other Western government to abide by.TheBigBean said:
Even Israel aren't accusing Hamas. They are blaming Islamic Jihad.Jezyboy said:
It certainly seemed to matter to certain people that they had done it. One guesses that they'll be more forgiving of Hamas making a mistake with a deadly weapon than Israel.TheBigBean said:
In the end, it doesn't really matter. Much like the discussion around whether Hamas decapitated babies or merely burnt them alive. In this case, Israel had already hit this hospital, has hit loads of other healthcare facilities, UN schools, refugee camps, safe roads, journalists etc This is on top of a siege which has meant no water. So does it matter who fired this rocket?briantrumpet said:It's still as clear as mud who fired the rocket. All you can work out so far is who is believing which side's spin.
But yes, lots of focus on this one for some reason. Perhaps due to the number of reported deaths.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
It landed in the car park and appears to have burnt out a few cars and left' a small hole in the paving. Obviously if people were in that parking area they would have been killed or injured, but it appears that the numbers were inflated. As someone who had reported on the Russian bombing of a Ukrainian city commented, it takes hours if not days to assess how many have been killed in a major air strike. That probably should have been a clue that something was not quite as reported.rick_chasey said:Either scenario is horrendous and the fact that either one is credible shows what a f*cking sh!tshow the whole thing is.
Increasingly inclined to think the major powers should get the respective leaders in a room, censored them for being such a f*ck up, and withhold all money & support till they sort themselves out. Iran, US, whoever.
Notwithstanding this, if you are lobbing heavy explosives into a dense city it's a question of when the IDF hit something they didn't intend to hit rather than if.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
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I wonder if this should go in the irony thread.
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https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/19/hamas-attack-peace-revenge-border-war
He doesn't say much as he is clearly suffering. Nonetheless, a strong ending.From this unbearable feeling of pain and distress, I wish to speak about what I believe is my parents’ legacy. People from both sides of the border have good reasons to hate one another. This is being used by those who feed on hate. But this cannot be the only option. My family does not seek revenge. My parents treated people based on their actions, not their affiliation with any group. We are being comforted by people from all walks of life, regardless of their religion, ethnicity, or gender. Close friends among the Bedouin community have also lost loved ones in the attack.
Our shared future is based on the belief that all human beings are equal, and deserving of respect and safety. This is how I was raised and how I am raising my own children. In the long term, and even if it’s very far away, the only real future is that of hope and peace. Please, stop the war.1 -
So in summary, the Israeli's were terrible people for bombing a hospital and killing 800 people.
Now with the evidence suggesting 800 deaths was exaggerated it does not matter what the total number is.
Further evidence suggests it was not the Israelis but that does not matter because they would have done it anyway.1 -
surrey_commuter said:
So in summary, the Israeli's were terrible people for bombing a hospital and killing 800 people.
Now with the evidence suggesting 800 deaths was exaggerated it does not matter what the total number is.
Further evidence suggests it was not the Israelis but that does not matter because they would have done it anyway.
Yeah, it would be more helpful if people apologised for hasty faulty reporting using unverified sources, and took more care next time. The trouble is that people want to hear news as quickly as possible, and it's doubly difficult to know what's going on in war, and doubly difficult again when both sides are prone to lying.0 -
Tbh, there appears to be a strong body of opinion in the various media that would support you stopping per the truncated quote above, with "were" changed to "are".surrey_commuter said:So in summary, the Israeli's were terrible people...
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Brian, you are a sensible chap and as such I would be very surprised if you did not find the writings of Baddiel and Daniel Finkelstein very informative in understanding the jewish mindset.briantrumpet said:I wonder if this should go in the irony thread.
I sat next to a jewish guy at work who is on a security rota for his daughter's nursery as an adult male presence could prevent an attack on the mothers and kids.
Daniel Finkelstein is a very good writer and if you do read some of his work you will understand that jews believe that most people don't believe that Jewish Lives Matter and that history tells them that given half a chance their many enemies will carry on trying to wipe them out.
In Russia, Germany , Poland or North London they can not defend themselves but in Israel they can. There they are surrounded by people whose stated aim is to wipe them out and my guess is that they will never relinquish their position of strength which puts their future in their hands0 -
An alternative view is that having ordered a hospital to evacuate three times, hit it at least once, bombed the civilians in the neighbourhood so much that they chose to shelter in the hospital against advice, they may have been falsely accused of killing some civilians. It's basically just distraction from all the other war crimes.surrey_commuter said:So in summary, the Israeli's were terrible people for bombing a hospital and killing 800 people.
Now with the evidence suggesting 800 deaths was exaggerated it does not matter what the total number is.
Further evidence suggests it was not the Israelis but that does not matter because they would have done it anyway.0 -
I posted a quote upthread which identified one of the main problems being that both sides see themselves as victims.surrey_commuter said:
Brian, you are a sensible chap and as such I would be very surprised if you did not find the writings of Baddiel and Daniel Finkelstein very informative in understanding the jewish mindset.briantrumpet said:I wonder if this should go in the irony thread.
I sat next to a jewish guy at work who is on a security rota for his daughter's nursery as an adult male presence could prevent an attack on the mothers and kids.
Daniel Finkelstein is a very good writer and if you do read some of his work you will understand that jews believe that most people don't believe that Jewish Lives Matter and that history tells them that given half a chance their many enemies will carry on trying to wipe them out.
In Russia, Germany , Poland or North London they can not defend themselves but in Israel they can. There they are surrounded by people whose stated aim is to wipe them out and my guess is that they will never relinquish their position of strength which puts their future in their hands
Another Finkelstein, Norman, offers some alternative views on it all.0 -
This is really what the UK ought to be focused on. Absolutely vital they stamp out any attempt to bring the war over here and protect all citizens from this.surrey_commuter said:
I sat next to a jewish guy at work who is on a security rota for his daughter's nursery as an adult male presence could prevent an attack on the mothers and kids.
Why on earth can't the police do this? They have enough manpower to protect football fans from themselves but not school kids. F*cking joke.0 -
Re the Palestinian leadership Israel actually encouraged Hamas in it's early days as they seemed less dangerous than the PLO at the time.
It's a huge problem that religious fundamentalists have gained so much influence on both sides. No doubt Israeli actions haven't helped the non Islamist Palestinian leadership but fundamentalism has grown throughout much of the Islamic world so how far it's a response to oppression is debatable.
On the other side I've read West Bank settlers have plans to set up their own Jewish state called Judea if Israel did ever withdraw. I do think these settlers are undeniably occupying someone elses land and Israel should be made to evict them. I get that Israel may not want to withdraw it's military presence from the West Bank but that's different - settling it is just a land grab and undermines any moral or political case they have.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
Except of course that bombing a hospital is perceived as being on a different level when compared to other war crimes such as cutting off water supplies. (That's not to imply cutting of water supplies isn't bad; just that the perpetrator of a hospital bombing will get particularly "bad press".)TheBigBean said:...they may have been falsely accused of killing some civilians. It's basically just distraction from all the other war crimes.
So if you make a false claim about bombing a hospital then you look like a much bigger "Twitter Loon" than if you make false claims about many other things.
The flip side of course is that I suspect many making the claim don't care. They are preaching to the converted, knowing that the converted just want to hear bad things about Israel.
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For a bit of false news that undermined a whole set of diplomatic meetings and has triggered various protests in the region, I think it's a bit dismissive to say it doesn't really matter.TheBigBean said:
In the end, it doesn't really matter. Much like the discussion around whether Hamas decapitated babies or merely burnt them alive. In this case, Israel had already hit this hospital, has hit loads of other healthcare facilities, UN schools, refugee camps, safe roads, journalists etc This is on top of a siege which has meant no water. So does it matter who fired this rocket?briantrumpet said:It's still as clear as mud who fired the rocket. All you can work out so far is who is believing which side's spin.
Respected news organisations should have done better from the start rather than having to row back the day after.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition1 -
Has there been much violence in the UK related to this so far? I genuinely don't know.rick_chasey said:This is really what the UK ought to be focused on. Absolutely vital they stamp out any attempt to bring the war over here and protect all citizens from this.
Why on earth can't the police do this? They have enough manpower to protect football fans from themselves but not school kids. F*cking joke.
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What has this got to do with the point Brian was making?surrey_commuter said:
Brian, you are a sensible chap and as such I would be very surprised if you did not find the writings of Baddiel and Daniel Finkelstein very informative in understanding the jewish mindset.briantrumpet said:I wonder if this should go in the irony thread.
I sat next to a jewish guy at work who is on a security rota for his daughter's nursery as an adult male presence could prevent an attack on the mothers and kids.
Daniel Finkelstein is a very good writer and if you do read some of his work you will understand that jews believe that most people don't believe that Jewish Lives Matter and that history tells them that given half a chance their many enemies will carry on trying to wipe them out.
In Russia, Germany , Poland or North London they can not defend themselves but in Israel they can. There they are surrounded by people whose stated aim is to wipe them out and my guess is that they will never relinquish their position of strength which puts their future in their hands0
