Today's discussion about the news

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Comments

  • focuszing723
    focuszing723 Posts: 7,107

    I tell you what, it makes you think about the BBC charter and license fee.

    Just how good they are?
    EastEnders

    Sorry, I've won, where's my twenty likes!
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,254

    I tell you what, it makes you think about the BBC charter and license fee.

    Just how good they are?
    EastEnders

    Sorry, I've won, where's my twenty likes!
    Once upon a time the only news I got was through SW radio. The BBC World Service is so much better than every other source.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,254
    Anyway, the news is particularly depressing at the moment.
  • focuszing723
    focuszing723 Posts: 7,107

    I tell you what, it makes you think about the BBC charter and license fee.

    Just how good they are?
    EastEnders

    Sorry, I've won, where's my twenty likes!
    Once upon a time the only news I got was through SW radio. The BBC World Service is so much better than every other source.
    EastEnders

    I'm sorry, you've lost, not won, the discussion is over, I am victorious.
  • Did someone get lucky with his timing:





    I think the truth is much more mundane: Folk in their 90s convicted of white collar crime where they plead guilty don't often (never?) get sent to chokie. For someone of that age to get sent down there has to have been some pretty horrific crime involved e.g. long-term child abuse, no guilty plea and no sign of remorse.
    You just need to survive and keep it away from the authorities for long enough then.

    https://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/news/15196448.man-who-swindled-18000-in-benefit-fraud-in-southfields-wandsworth-jailed-for-two-years-at-kingston-crown-court/
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 17,303

    Anyway, the news is particularly depressing at the moment.


    Perhaps we need an "Only good news discussions" thread...
  • photonic69
    photonic69 Posts: 2,338

    Anyone listening to Grant Schnapps on R4? Supporting Israel, but not saying whether he supports what they are now doing and arguing that no one could possibly be confused by this position.

    What an absolute tosser! Has he ever been good or even passable at any job he's been given?


    Sometimes. Maybe. Possibly.

  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,241

    He has now had a dig at BBC coverage and suggested a link to the need for Jewish schools in the UK needing to close, and is suggesting that the BBC should be required to adhere to UK government terminology.

    Is it just me or is that attitude towards press freedom worrying?

    Yes they don’t understand that the BBC is trusted because before politicians had the self control to not tell the state broadcaster how to report



    Cynic is me believes they’re doing it to lay the groundwork that the state is captured by the left for the election
    The government has always tried to tell the BBC what to say since it's inception. The BBC has generally tried to resist, but not always succeeded.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 14,252
    rjsterry said:

    He has now had a dig at BBC coverage and suggested a link to the need for Jewish schools in the UK needing to close, and is suggesting that the BBC should be required to adhere to UK government terminology.

    Is it just me or is that attitude towards press freedom worrying?

    Yes they don’t understand that the BBC is trusted because before politicians had the self control to not tell the state broadcaster how to report



    Cynic is me believes they’re doing it to lay the groundwork that the state is captured by the left for the election
    The government has always tried to tell the BBC what to say since it's inception. The BBC has generally tried to resist, but not always succeeded.
    I don't recall it ever being so blatant. It is more stuff from the Tories taken from the authoritarian populist playbook.

    Stevo has been quiet lately. Is it so extreme not even he can defend it?
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,241

    rjsterry said:

    He has now had a dig at BBC coverage and suggested a link to the need for Jewish schools in the UK needing to close, and is suggesting that the BBC should be required to adhere to UK government terminology.

    Is it just me or is that attitude towards press freedom worrying?

    Yes they don’t understand that the BBC is trusted because before politicians had the self control to not tell the state broadcaster how to report



    Cynic is me believes they’re doing it to lay the groundwork that the state is captured by the left for the election
    The government has always tried to tell the BBC what to say since it's inception. The BBC has generally tried to resist, but not always succeeded.
    I don't recall it ever being so blatant. It is more stuff from the Tories taken from the authoritarian populist playbook.

    Stevo has been quiet lately. Is it so extreme not even he can defend it?
    They were previously a bit more private about it but I think we are kidding ourselves if we think they haven't always tried to modify the BBC's output.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 14,252
    rjsterry said:

    rjsterry said:

    He has now had a dig at BBC coverage and suggested a link to the need for Jewish schools in the UK needing to close, and is suggesting that the BBC should be required to adhere to UK government terminology.

    Is it just me or is that attitude towards press freedom worrying?

    Yes they don’t understand that the BBC is trusted because before politicians had the self control to not tell the state broadcaster how to report



    Cynic is me believes they’re doing it to lay the groundwork that the state is captured by the left for the election
    The government has always tried to tell the BBC what to say since it's inception. The BBC has generally tried to resist, but not always succeeded.
    I don't recall it ever being so blatant. It is more stuff from the Tories taken from the authoritarian populist playbook.

    Stevo has been quiet lately. Is it so extreme not even he can defend it?
    They were previously a bit more private about it but I think we are kidding ourselves if we think they haven't always tried to modify the BBC's output.
    There's likely to be a correlation between the extent of what they are suggesting and how brazen they are being.

    This group of Tories is extremely dangerous, because they do not respect established norms.

    They can see from the US that once you break that down and there's nothing to fall back on, it can be an advantage to liars and extremists. And make no mistake, the comments we now see on. Regular basis are so factually incorrect, and particularly on migration so extreme, that the Tories tick both boxes.

    They are not concerned about the longer term consequences for our democracy.
  • veronese68
    veronese68 Posts: 27,165
    Pross said:

    Not sure why the UK Government is getting involved and sending ships to Israel. The Israeli’s have every right to defend themselves and take action against Hamas but it feels like they are going beyond that into taking revenge on Palestinians. Should we be supporting that? I doubt the Israeli military even need any support in any case. The argument that it is for our security seem far fetched and probably puts us at increased risk of terrorist attack.

    Didn't the Falklands Get Thatcher another term? This lot are not very bright, so they are hoping if they appear strong they'll get some sort of reflected glory and it will help them in next year's election.
    Obviously I have no idea and hopefully my mind doesn't work like that of a Tory, but that's the most likely reason I can come up with.
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 14,252
    Israel are probably about to do some things that will test international law and lose them a great deal of sympathy across the world.

    The smart move is to sit on the fence somewhat, or encourage appropriate action like the UN is doing.

    Given how extreme the current Israeli government is, supporting israel to do anything they might do next is foolish.

    So, no, they aren't smart.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,193
    Another theory.
    USA is sending ships. Their lap dog is following on.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • What would happen if they simply pulled the wall down and forced the two communities to mingle and get on with it with a bit of positive discrimination thrown in.

    How bad could it get versus what's currently going on?
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,254

    Israel are probably about to do some things that will test international law and lose them a great deal of sympathy across the world.

    The smart move is to sit on the fence somewhat, or encourage appropriate action like the UN is doing.

    Given how extreme the current Israeli government is, supporting israel to do anything they might do next is foolish.

    So, no, they aren't smart.

    Israel doesn't care about committing war crimes. It is not part of the ICC; however, Palestine joined the ICC in 2015 which means that war crimes committed in Palestine could be prosecuted, and some (by both sides) are currently under investigation. The only real impact of this though is on the holiday plans of any war criminals.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,254

    What would happen if they simply pulled the wall down and forced the two communities to mingle and get on with it with a bit of positive discrimination thrown in.

    How bad could it get versus what's currently going on?

    There used to be a lot of suicide bombings.
  • How bad is that versus this? Just feels like the situation there is an extremely bloody stalemate with no end in sight.
  • veronese68
    veronese68 Posts: 27,165

    What would happen if they simply pulled the wall down and forced the two communities to mingle and get on with it with a bit of positive discrimination thrown in.

    How bad could it get versus what's currently going on?

    There used to be a lot of suicide bombings.
    Obviously we'll never know, but what could have happened if Israel had tried another way?
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,254

    How bad is that versus this? Just feels like the situation there is an extremely bloody stalemate with no end in sight.

    Over the last 15 years, there have been far fewer suicide bombings, but that security for Israel has come at a cost for the Palestinians. So, until last weekend Israel was happy with the situation.

    Last weekend probably resulted in more deaths than all the suicide bombs in total, so if you think that last weekend was a result of the wall, separation etc, then yes, they may have been better off with one state and equal rights.

    However, not many people in Israel see the attacks as a consequence of anything Israel has done. It is more a case that evil will do evil. Therefore, your question is interpreted as why don't Israelis share their streets with evil and let them do even worse.

    Unfortunately, all of this has a precedent in 11th September attacks.




  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,254

    What would happen if they simply pulled the wall down and forced the two communities to mingle and get on with it with a bit of positive discrimination thrown in.

    How bad could it get versus what's currently going on?

    There used to be a lot of suicide bombings.
    Obviously we'll never know, but what could have happened if Israel had tried another way?
    You could make a comparison between Israel in 1990 and Northern Ireland in 1990. Different paths were chosen.
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 14,252

    Israel are probably about to do some things that will test international law and lose them a great deal of sympathy across the world.

    The smart move is to sit on the fence somewhat, or encourage appropriate action like the UN is doing.

    Given how extreme the current Israeli government is, supporting israel to do anything they might do next is foolish.

    So, no, they aren't smart.

    Israel doesn't care about committing war crimes. It is not part of the ICC; however, Palestine joined the ICC in 2015 which means that war crimes committed in Palestine could be prosecuted, and some (by both sides) are currently under investigation. The only real impact of this though is on the holiday plans of any war criminals.
    Recent events are demonstrating that no one seems to be all that bothered by the International Cricket Council.

    That's not the point I was making - this is about overtly associating the UK with one side or the other, whilst at the same time being unwilling at least publicly to urge any kind of moderation.

    Let me ask this - what's the end game here? Is there any realistic prospect of any semblance of self governance returning, or even the original border being restored to Gaza?
  • veronese68
    veronese68 Posts: 27,165



    Unfortunately, all of this has a precedent in 11th September attacks.

    I started to write someting about this in my previous post, then stopped, but as you also mention it.
    I once heard the question, what would the world be like now if after the attacks, when the US had the sympathy of the world they had spent the money on aid and reconciliation rather than revenge and punishment?
    I realise I'm dreaming and that could never have happened, but, what if...
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,254
    I presume that is a terrible joke, but just in case it is not

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 39,813
    Israel are just reacting in exactly the way Hamas would have expected and. presumably, hoped. The could have been clever and just pushed them back to the border with some very targetted strikes at the Hamas leadership and infrastructure which would probably have put them in a stronger position (more international pressure on Hamas for their atrocities, possibly losing support amongst Palestinians for putting them at risk of retaliatory strikes etc.) but that obviously isn't the way you behave as a hardline Government.
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 14,252

    I presume that is a terrible joke, but just in case it is not

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court

    Thank you for your moral judgement.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,241

    How bad is that versus this? Just feels like the situation there is an extremely bloody stalemate with no end in sight.

    Over the last 15 years, there have been far fewer suicide bombings, but that security for Israel has come at a cost for the Palestinians. So, until last weekend Israel was happy with the situation.

    Last weekend probably resulted in more deaths than all the suicide bombs in total, so if you think that last weekend was a result of the wall, separation etc, then yes, they may have been better off with one state and equal rights.

    However, not many people in Israel see the attacks as a consequence of anything Israel has done. It is more a case that evil will do evil. Therefore, your question is interpreted as why don't Israelis share their streets with evil and let them do even worse.

    Unfortunately, all of this has a precedent in 11th September attacks.




    I saw a link to a Ha'aretz article absolutely laying into Netanyahu both on the intelligence failure but also in effectively encouraging Hamas over Fatah or any other group. Not had a chance to read it properly yet, but quite a striking viewpoint.

    https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-11/ty-article/.premium/netanyahu-needed-a-strong-hamas/0000018b-1e9f-d47b-a7fb-bfdfd8f30000

    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 71,531
    edited October 2023

    Anyone listening to Grant Schnapps on R4? Supporting Israel, but not saying whether he supports what they are now doing and arguing that no one could possibly be confused by this position.

    What an absolute censored ! Has he ever been good or even passable at any job he's been given?
    He couldn't even solve negotiations with the rail unions so I don't have much hope for him wading into this particular topic.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,254
    rjsterry said:

    How bad is that versus this? Just feels like the situation there is an extremely bloody stalemate with no end in sight.

    Over the last 15 years, there have been far fewer suicide bombings, but that security for Israel has come at a cost for the Palestinians. So, until last weekend Israel was happy with the situation.

    Last weekend probably resulted in more deaths than all the suicide bombs in total, so if you think that last weekend was a result of the wall, separation etc, then yes, they may have been better off with one state and equal rights.

    However, not many people in Israel see the attacks as a consequence of anything Israel has done. It is more a case that evil will do evil. Therefore, your question is interpreted as why don't Israelis share their streets with evil and let them do even worse.

    Unfortunately, all of this has a precedent in 11th September attacks.




    I saw a link to a Ha'aretz article absolutely laying into Netanyahu both on the intelligence failure but also in effectively encouraging Hamas over Fatah or any other group. Not had a chance to read it properly yet, but quite a striking viewpoint.

    https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-11/ty-article/.premium/netanyahu-needed-a-strong-hamas/0000018b-1e9f-d47b-a7fb-bfdfd8f30000

    I can't read it due to a wall of some sort, but I have read a few things that say the same. They all overlook the whole settlement / open air prison problem in the West Bank.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 57,713

    rjsterry said:

    He has now had a dig at BBC coverage and suggested a link to the need for Jewish schools in the UK needing to close, and is suggesting that the BBC should be required to adhere to UK government terminology.

    Is it just me or is that attitude towards press freedom worrying?

    Yes they don’t understand that the BBC is trusted because before politicians had the self control to not tell the state broadcaster how to report



    Cynic is me believes they’re doing it to lay the groundwork that the state is captured by the left for the election
    The government has always tried to tell the BBC what to say since it's inception. The BBC has generally tried to resist, but not always succeeded.
    I don't recall it ever being so blatant. It is more stuff from the Tories taken from the authoritarian populist playbook.

    Stevo has been quiet lately. Is it so extreme not even he can defend it?
    Nope, been quite busy and sometimes it's good to get a break from the Leftie/Euro/Whiney bollox. Also BBC terminology isn't really top of my list of hot topics.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]