La Vuelta 2023: Stage 18:- Pola de Allande to La Cruz de Linares, 179km ***Spoilers***

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Comments

  • r0bh
    r0bh Posts: 2,451
    RichN95. said:

    What we have seen is two of the best GC riders in the world forced to ride around Spain in the small ring so a rider who was allowed to go jn a break to win a stage, had several days in red, a podium place guaranteed and a seven figure salary plus bonuses can be rewarded for his efforts.

    If I was Vingegaard or Roglic I'd think I've wasted a GT.

    This take is so hot it really belongs on Twitter
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,597
    RichN95. said:

    What we have seen is two of the best GC riders in the world forced to ride around Spain in the small ring so a rider who was allowed to go jn a break to win a stage, had several days in red, a podium place guaranteed and a seven figure salary plus bonuses can be rewarded for his efforts.

    If I was Vingegaard or Roglic I'd think I've wasted a GT.

    That’s not what we’ve seen though is it? It may have been the case today (although I think Roglic would have finished on Kuss’s wheel today to prove a point if he’d been able to).

    Maybe JV shouldn’t have got greedy and sent the domestique into a break that allowed him to take the race lead and this position wouldn’t have arisen.

    My main annoyance is that it is highlighting that Kuss is wasting his ability by normally assuming the loyal servant role.
  • orraloon
    orraloon Posts: 13,272
    The modern soshul meejah world. Shakes head. Who with any grip on reality gives a flying F over 'comments' 'and the rest of what used to be the local pisshead burbling away to himself in the corner of the pub.

    Just effin' race. Best one wins.
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,459
    There was a time when professional cyclists didn't care what Internet forum people said.
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,692
    Blimey, tough crowd. Poor Jonas can't win.

    But from the Tourmalet thread - 10 days ago
    No_Ta_Doctor said:

    RichN95. said:

    r0bh said:



    From the team's perspective isn't winning all three GTs with three different riders the best exhibition of the strength of the team?

    From the team's perspective, sure. But Roglic and Vingegaard are team leaders. They're winners. They won't want to gift a GT to the staff.
    This is just backwards. Leaders inspire and motivate teams, they don't just grab the rewards and censored on their co-workers. They know it's not "gifting" any more than it's gifting when Kuss works for them. They've relied on him and he's delivered in multiple GTs, they'll be fine supporting him, they're still building the team spirit that will be there in the Giro and Tour nest year - and don't underestimate how this plays to the other domestiques

    According to Kuss, Vingegaard asked for permission to attack for the stage win - and was granted it.
    I was wrong about Roglic, but Jonas came good. I genuinely think he's really happy for Kuss to win and he's doing this as a human being. Not everyone is a cynical egoist all the time - even those capable of winning big races.

    And no, teamwork isn't gifting. Gifting was when he gave Van Aert the TT in 2022. Gifting was when, as a domestique, he gave Roglic the stage in the Dauphine (or Suisse?) in 2021, despite looking far stronger and Roglic already having the race sewn up.
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  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,692
    tailwindhome said:

    There was a time when professional cyclists didn't care what Internet forum people said.

    I don't think they do. I think Jonas has always wanted Kuss to win (since it became a possibility) and has ridden to get a good position on the podium alongside that - for himself and the team. I think he follows Roglic on Angliru to avoid Roglic getting into red (it was a possibility, 90 seconds isn't an unthinkable loss there). And I think that Roglic has now given up because Jonas would batter him up any climb he chose and because he didn't narrow the gap yesterday so he can't do it with a bit of a finish line bonus.

    Yes, I'm aware I'm biased, but when he's speaking Danish he just doesn't come across anything like what most of you think.
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  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,576
    I have to say that Roglic comes out of this the worst. He's clearly not happy about it and makes little to no effort to hide that.

    Take today, as the third placed rider on GC for JV, he should've been the one on the front setting tempo on the last climb, but instead Vingegaard took it on and Roglic made no attempt to assist.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,912
    edited September 2023
    The problems of being way too strong a team I guess .

    Overall who is the strongest rider in this race across the 3 weeks?

    Doesn't matter which one of the 3 won the dam race ..it's because the nearest opposition [on their own team] let them go


    In a long break or final climb
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,912
    Cunego did a Jonas and a kuss combined to Simone .... never came close to a GT win again
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,597
    andyp said:

    I have to say that Roglic comes out of this the worst. He's clearly not happy about it and makes little to no effort to hide that.

    Take today, as the third placed rider on GC for JV, he should've been the one on the front setting tempo on the last climb, but instead Vingegaard took it on and Roglic made no attempt to assist.

    Roglic has always been the same hasn’t he? Not a team player and shafting people in breaks when he’s benefitted on GC from them riding with him.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,228
    Pross said:


    My main annoyance is that it is highlighting that Kuss is wasting his ability by normally assuming the loyal servant role.

    He could go to another team and not be quite good enough if he wants.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,912
    I think they are trying to unravel an absurd situation. Can't blame any of them really . The opposition hasn't been strong enough to break them up ....

    The real person to blame is Remco ... this is all his fault for falling out of contention
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,611
    No_Ta_Doctor said:

    tailwindhome said:

    There was a time when professional cyclists didn't care what Internet forum people said.

    I don't think they do. I think Jonas has always wanted Kuss to win (since it became a possibility) and has ridden to get a good position on the podium alongside that - for himself and the team. I think he follows Roglic on Angliru to avoid Roglic getting into red (it was a possibility, 90 seconds isn't an unthinkable loss there). And I think that Roglic has now given up because Jonas would batter him up any climb he chose and because he didn't narrow the gap yesterday so he can't do it with a bit of a finish line bonus.

    Yes, I'm aware I'm biased, but when he's speaking Danish he just doesn't come across anything like what most of you think.
    I think you are wrong. Jonas was trying hard to win this race until the general disgust at yesterday.
    He would rather win himself, but if he isn't able to (or allowed to) he would much rather it was Kuss than Roglic.
    I think he realised last night that shafting his key domestique was not a good move, hence dropping off at the end today to give a cushion to Sepp.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,262
    edited September 2023
    andyp said:

    I have to say that Roglic comes out of this the worst. He's clearly not happy about it and makes little to no effort to hide that.


    This race has been his sole focus since June. He didn't do the Tour so he could focus on Giro & Vuelta.

    He hasn't got many years left. This team was a bang average outfit until he turned up. Relying on sht small wins with Groenewegen, and struggling for sponsors. This team's rise is built on his winning. Without him they may have folded. And he gets told not to race. Of course he's peed off.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,496
    A career tapering down is always frustrating.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • stage_hunter
    stage_hunter Posts: 325
    tailwindhome said:

    RichN95. said:

    What we have seen is two of the best GC riders in the world forced to ride around Spain in the small ring so a rider who was allowed to go jn a break to win a stage, had several days in red, a podium place guaranteed and a seven figure salary plus bonuses can be rewarded for his efforts.

    If I was Vingegaard or Roglic I'd think I've wasted a GT.

    And it's happened because they were meme'd into it on social media.
    Exactly this. The social media storm has clearly sealed this Vuelta for Kuss.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,262
    edited September 2023
    pblakeney said:

    A career tapering down is always frustrating.


    He's won all four of the stage races he's done this season before this one
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,597
    RichN95. said:

    pblakeney said:

    A career tapering down is always frustrating.


    He's won all five of the stage races he's done this season before this one
    He narrowly beat Thomas at the Giro and according to some Thomas should be swallowing his pride and retiring.
  • stage_hunter
    stage_hunter Posts: 325
    tailwindhome said:

    Cycling Twitter is full of this nonsense


    Clickbait merchant.
  • m.r.m.
    m.r.m. Posts: 3,486
    Pross said:

    andyp said:

    I have to say that Roglic comes out of this the worst. He's clearly not happy about it and makes little to no effort to hide that.

    Take today, as the third placed rider on GC for JV, he should've been the one on the front setting tempo on the last climb, but instead Vingegaard took it on and Roglic made no attempt to assist.

    Roglic has always been the same hasn’t he? Not a team player and shafting people in breaks when he’s benefitted on GC from them riding with him.
    He is maximising his palmares when his only talent is sprinting for bonus seconds. He hardly ever risks anything, always relying on his sprint - see Valverde, Rui Costa...
    PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 2023
  • m.r.m.
    m.r.m. Posts: 3,486
    edited September 2023
    mididoctors said:

    Not easy being a super domestique all.day is it Jonas ...lol

    This is nonsense (no offence intended at all). Vingegaard wasn't signed as a captain. He had immense potential, but was a domestique at Jumbo for at least a couple of years until he earned the leadership position. His rise is as much tied to Roglic crashing at the Tour (constantly) as it is to his immense talent.
    PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 2023
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,262
    m.r.m. said:



    He is maximising his palmares when his only talent is sprinting for bonus seconds. He hardly ever risks anything, always relying on his sprint - see Valverde, Rui Costa...

    He's a really smart rider. His ability to pick the right moves to follow is the best I've seen.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • m.r.m.
    m.r.m. Posts: 3,486
    I agree with that @RichN95. Same can be said of Valverde as well. The positions are not mutually exclusive.
    PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 2023
  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,183
    Wonder what would have happened if stage 20 were a TT .
    Vinge batter Rog?
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,459
    I'd say Kuss will never be allowed away for a stage win again
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 22,029
    tailwindhome said:

    I'd say Kuss will never be allowed away for a stage win again

    By other teams? It's always foolish giving good climbers a head start.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,912
    m.r.m. said:

    mididoctors said:

    Not easy being a super domestique all.day is it Jonas ...lol

    This is nonsense (no offence intended at all). Vingegaard wasn't signed as a captain. He had immense potential, but was a domestique at Jumbo for at least a couple of years until he earned the leadership position. His rise is as much tied to Roglic crashing at the Tour (constantly) as it is to his immense talent.
    Sometimes I'll say things I am not that serious about . I will do that a few times on this thread
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,496
    RichN95. said:

    pblakeney said:

    A career tapering down is always frustrating.


    He's won all four of the stage races he's done this season before this one
    That's as maybe but imo he is on the slide/others are rising.
    Only an opinion but time will tell for sure.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • m.r.m.
    m.r.m. Posts: 3,486
    So, should Roglic swallow his pride... 😉😂
    PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 2023
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,496
    m.r.m. said:

    So, should Roglic swallow his pride... 😉😂

    He should realise that Vingegaard would beat him if he wanted to.
    Only one rider out of the three really has the power on the road to decide.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.

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