La Vuelta 2023: Stage 17:- Ribadesella / Ribeseya - Altu de L'Angliru 124.5Kms ***Spoilers***

kingstongraham

TheBigBean said:

kingstongraham said:

It does look like Vingegaard is riding to keep Roglic away from red.

It seemed like he could have ridden away from him yesterday if he felt like it.

It's hard to explain what Vingegaard did yesterday. If it was all about competing on the road why not sprint for the stage or attack? It also doesn't make sense that he wants to stop Roglic winning - he is too far behind.

I think from what we saw is that Vingegaard would be quite happy if Kuss won, and also quite happy if Vingegaard won. But what he doesn't want is for Roglic to be in with a chance of beating them both. Fair enough.

He could have dragged Roglic further clear yesterday, and probably could have taken the stage win. Didn't do a single second on the front, did he?

TheBigBean

But Roglic is a minute behind Vingegaard, so he could have afforded to drop some time which would have ensured that Roglic still doesn't win and that Kuss has a decent buffer.

I think Vingegaard is trying to win whilst not looking like he is attacking his team mate. I'm not persuaded he has managed the second part of that.

Anyway, we will see today. It is unlikely Roglic will put 1 min into Kuss on the climb, so Vingegaard will be forced to make a choice.

kingstongraham

TheBigBean said:

But Roglic is a minute behind Vingegaard, so he could have afforded to drop some time which would have ensured that Roglic still doesn't win and that Kuss has a decent buffer.

I think Vingegaard is trying to win whilst not looking like he is attacking his team mate. I'm not persuaded he has managed the second part of that.

Anyway, we will see today. It is unlikely Roglic will put 1 min into Kuss on the climb, so Vingegaard will be forced to make a choice.

When they dropped Kuss, it didn't look like he was limiting it to 19 seconds. Landa properly came from out of nowhere to rescue him.

DeVlaeminck

Whatever the stage 16 attack was meant to be and how other teams were meant to react the fact remains if that day Kuss knew he was racing Roglic and Vingegaard he would have reacted and limited his losses. He's been constrained by the usual team etiquette which he then hasn't benefitted from yesterday.

kingstongraham

I'd already forgotten about stage 16. And Tourmalet.

If they're sitting behind Kuss, maybe it's just muscle memory that makes them leave him behind at the end of a stage.

Dorset_Boy

Classy of Kuss to go to Landa after the finish and apologise for jumping him on the line whilst explaining he needed the bonus seconds.

No_Ta_Doctor

DeVlaeminck said:

Whatever the stage 16 attack was meant to be and how other teams were meant to react the fact remains if that day Kuss knew he was racing Roglic and Vingegaard he would have reacted and limited his losses. He's been constrained by the usual team etiquette which he then hasn't benefitted from yesterday.

I think the only thing constraining Kuss is his legs tbh. Stage 16 Roglic dropped him - while towing Ayuso away.

TheBigBean

kingstongraham said:

I'd already forgotten about stage 16.

.

In the stage 17 discussion!

TheBigBean

kingstongraham said:

TheBigBean said:

But Roglic is a minute behind Vingegaard, so he could have afforded to drop some time which would have ensured that Roglic still doesn't win and that Kuss has a decent buffer.

I think Vingegaard is trying to win whilst not looking like he is attacking his team mate. I'm not persuaded he has managed the second part of that.

Anyway, we will see today. It is unlikely Roglic will put 1 min into Kuss on the climb, so Vingegaard will be forced to make a choice.

When they dropped Kuss, it didn't look like he was limiting it to 19 seconds. Landa properly came from out of nowhere to rescue him.

No, but I didn't expect them to take 1 min either.

kingstongraham

TheBigBean said:

kingstongraham said:

I'd already forgotten about stage 16.

.

In the stage 17 discussion!

I know! I know that once this race is over, all I will remember is general vibes.

TheBigBean

I'm just as bad at remembering races, but here are the two key stage results from the bloke just trying to help his mate Kuss win.

Stage 13

01 Vingegaard Jonas Jumbo-Visma 03:51:10
02 Kuss Sepp Jumbo-Visma + 30
03 Roglic Primoz Jumbo-Visma + 33
04 Ayuso Juan UAE Team Emirates + 38
05 Uijtdebroeks Cian BORA-hansgrohe + 38
06 Mas Enric Movistar Team + 40
07 Landa Mikel Bahrain Victorious + 01:15
08 Vlasov Aleksandr BORA-hansgrohe + 02:12
09 Cras Steff TotalEnergies + 02:32
10 Soler Marc UAE Team Emirates + 03:08

Stage 17

01 Vingegaard Jonas Jumbo-Visma 02:38:23
02 Fisher-Black Finn UAE Team Emirates + 43
03 Poels Wout Bahrain Victorious + 49
04 Storer Michael Groupama-FDJ + 55
05 Ayuso Juan UAE Team Emirates + 01:01
06 Mas Enric Movistar Team + 01:01
07 Vlasov Aleksandr BORA-hansgrohe + 01:01
08 Roglic Primoz Jumbo-Visma + 01:01
09 Landa Mikel Bahrain Victorious + 01:05
10 Kuss Sepp Jumbo-Visma + 01:05

kingstongraham

TheBigBean said:

I'm just as bad at remembering races, but here are the two key stage results from the bloke just trying to help his mate Kuss win.

Stage 13

01 Vingegaard Jonas Jumbo-Visma 03:51:10
02 Kuss Sepp Jumbo-Visma + 30
03 Roglic Primoz Jumbo-Visma + 33
04 Ayuso Juan UAE Team Emirates + 38
05 Uijtdebroeks Cian BORA-hansgrohe + 38
06 Mas Enric Movistar Team + 40
07 Landa Mikel Bahrain Victorious + 01:15
08 Vlasov Aleksandr BORA-hansgrohe + 02:12
09 Cras Steff TotalEnergies + 02:32
10 Soler Marc UAE Team Emirates + 03:08

Stage 16

01 Vingegaard Jonas Jumbo-Visma 02:38:23
02 Fisher-Black Finn UAE Team Emirates + 43
03 Poels Wout Bahrain Victorious + 49
04 Storer Michael Groupama-FDJ + 55
05 Ayuso Juan UAE Team Emirates + 01:01
06 Mas Enric Movistar Team + 01:01
07 Vlasov Aleksandr BORA-hansgrohe + 01:01
08 Roglic Primoz Jumbo-Visma + 01:01
09 Landa Mikel Bahrain Victorious + 01:05
10 Kuss Sepp Jumbo-Visma + 01:05

Ay, he's come to this approach quite late.

Pross

kingstongraham said:

TheBigBean said:

kingstongraham said:

It does look like Vingegaard is riding to keep Roglic away from red.

It seemed like he could have ridden away from him yesterday if he felt like it.

It's hard to explain what Vingegaard did yesterday. If it was all about competing on the road why not sprint for the stage or attack? It also doesn't make sense that he wants to stop Roglic winning - he is too far behind.

I think from what we saw is that Vingegaard would be quite happy if Kuss won, and also quite happy if Vingegaard won. But what he doesn't want is for Roglic to be in with a chance of beating them both. Fair enough.

He could have dragged Roglic further clear yesterday, and probably could have taken the stage win. Didn't do a single second on the front, did he?

Yeah, thinking about it it appears that Kuss is becoming collateral damage in a bit of willy waving between the other two. Kuss does seem less happy with Jonas than Roglic though.

Pross

There's some similarity to the 2018 Tour, the main difference is that Thomas was clearly stronger than Froome in that race (and had gone into the race with the team decision that the road would decide). From memory there was a stage in that race where one of them attacked and the other had to stay back but was able to then follow one of the rivals before attacking - I'm not great at remembering details though.

pblakeney

There was also Mrs. Wiggins v Mrs. Froome.

photonic69

Saw this on a GCN Facebook post. Thought it quite apt.
I would have thought they were acting on the DS's descision via their team radio though?

mididoctors

No_Ta_Doctor said:

DeVlaeminck said:

Whatever the stage 16 attack was meant to be and how other teams were meant to react the fact remains if that day Kuss knew he was racing Roglic and Vingegaard he would have reacted and limited his losses. He's been constrained by the usual team etiquette which he then hasn't benefitted from yesterday.

I think the only thing constraining Kuss is his legs tbh. Stage 16 Roglic dropped him - while towing Ayuso away.

This is probably the case ..kuss is at the end of his tether .... a few more meters in his legs near the stage ends last few mountain tops he would be hanging on to Madrid (are they going to Madrid ? Checks)

Dorset_Boy

photonic69 said:

Saw this on a GCN Facebook post. Thought it quite apt.
I would have thought they were acting on the DS's descision via their team radio though?

DS claimed they couldn't hear Kuss's radio message or see the action on their TV screen, yet everything was working fine earlier on the climb.
All three GCN pundits thought that was utter bullshit.

gweeds

My gut tells me that Roglic might be riding for another team soon

mididoctors

Don't call me Angilru. You wouldn't like it when I'm Angilru

phreak

gweeds said:

My gut tells me that Roglic might be riding for another team soon

Roglic and Remco at Ineos would be a statement.

m.r.m.

dabber said:

I just hope that if they continue to shaft him we find that Kuss is not quite as easy going and friendly as he seems and gives them payback next year. Perhaps finding he "doesn't have the legs" at some vital moments when they need him.

In that case he should try to leave the team instead. This states that he should stop being a professional and the good teammate everyone lauds him for. It's the exact opposite of how he should behave, despite the sentiment maybe being understandable.

From Jumbo Visma's perspective isn't this situation akin to Hamilton & Rosberg at Mercedes years ago? They were allowed to race each other as long as the opposition is distanced. Was very messy there as well.

DeVlaeminck

If Roglic does end up on a different team maybe Kuss becomes the leader for the Giro. Possibly even up against Roglic.

kingstongraham

DeVlaeminck said:

If Roglic does end up on a different team maybe Kuss becomes the leader for the Giro. Possibly even up against Roglic.

Or he could be supporting Remco.

No_Ta_Doctor

I genuinely don't think Kuss wants leadership, too stressful. I doubt anything about the Vuelta, result aside, would have convinced him otherwise. He'll be OK with being super domestique and emergency plan B.

DeVlaeminck

If Roglic leaves though he is the obvious choice to lead the Giro assuming the team remains basically as it is otherwise.

takethehighroad

Didn't he make comments along the lines of "that took a lot out of me. Never again"