La Vuelta 2023: Stage 17:- Ribadesella / Ribeseya - Altu de L'Angliru 124.5Kms ***Spoilers***

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Comments

  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,337
    kingstongraham said:

    mrb123 said:

    stevepage20 said:

    Kuss will take the stage and couple of minutes tomorrow. Jumbo will get him in the break early with remco and a couple of stronger riders like Thomas, Soler and Jumbo will trust Kuss to take the stage and who else is gonna bother chasing if doesn't affect there place on GC when bringing it back just gifts stage to Vestergaard or Roglic. Break probably get lead up to near double figure minutes before teams start to ride to protect there top 10 place.

    You are Carlton Kirby and I claim my five pound prize.
    No. Only mentioned one potential stage winner.
    Did you just disclose your alter ego?
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    TheBigBean said:

    <

    Like the gifted tour?

    1985? I think LeMond's still bitter about that one
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,161
    pblakeney said:

    kingstongraham said:

    mrb123 said:

    stevepage20 said:

    Kuss will take the stage and couple of minutes tomorrow. Jumbo will get him in the break early with remco and a couple of stronger riders like Thomas, Soler and Jumbo will trust Kuss to take the stage and who else is gonna bother chasing if doesn't affect there place on GC when bringing it back just gifts stage to Vestergaard or Roglic. Break probably get lead up to near double figure minutes before teams start to ride to protect there top 10 place.

    You are Carlton Kirby and I claim my five pound prize.
    No. Only mentioned one potential stage winner.
    Did you just disclose your alter ego?
    No. I am not Carlton Kirby.
  • mooro
    mooro Posts: 483
    kingstongraham said:

    pblakeney said:

    kingstongraham said:

    mrb123 said:

    stevepage20 said:

    Kuss will take the stage and couple of minutes tomorrow. Jumbo will get him in the break early with remco and a couple of stronger riders like Thomas, Soler and Jumbo will trust Kuss to take the stage and who else is gonna bother chasing if doesn't affect there place on GC when bringing it back just gifts stage to Vestergaard or Roglic. Break probably get lead up to near double figure minutes before teams start to ride to protect there top 10 place.

    You are Carlton Kirby and I claim my five pound prize.
    No. Only mentioned one potential stage winner.
    Did you just disclose your alter ego?
    No. I am not Carlton Kirby.
    Yet…
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    You could tell that something is rotten in the state of Denmark/Slovenia/Colorado when Roglic attacked from more than 1km from the finish.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,104
    exlaser said:

    RichN95. said:

    This idea of rewarding Kuss for his loyalty.

    He was allowed to go in the break on stage 6. He won the stage. He gained three minutes. He's had eleven days in red. He's been allowed to ride his own race. He'll probably finish on the podium.

    This follows all the prize money and bonuses Roglic and Vingegaard have delivered for him by winning. And the higher profile and, as a result, higher salary those wins bring.

    Teams leaders have all the pressure on them. They carry a E50m team on their shoulders. Kuss has expectations, not pressure. He has the luxury of off days. Team leaders shouldn't be expected to step aside.

    They've delivered plenty for him. You can't expect them to gift him a big prize as well when they are better. And a Kuss win would forever be known as the gifted Vuelta.

    Totally agree.
    I don't. Roglic and Jionas have been paid according to their value as has Kuss - Kuss contributed to those wins its not as if Roglic and Jonas have been doling out charity to him and the rest of the team.

    Also there is no real pressure on Jonas to win here - maybe if it was Remco or Thomas ahead of him but not when its a team mate. If anything tne pressure is not to win if it's at Kuss' expense.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    edited September 2023
    DeVlaeminck said:



    Also there is no real pressure on Jonas to win here - maybe if it was Remco or Thomas ahead of him but not when its a team mate. If anything tne pressure is not to win if it's at Kuss' expense.

    Maybe not on this race specifically. But throughout the season. Lose to Pogacar at Paris-Nice and you are a loser. Excel at the Tour and you are a doper. Meanwhile it's isn't Sepp, lovely, he has a dog, so cute.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,337
    kingstongraham said:

    pblakeney said:

    kingstongraham said:

    mrb123 said:

    stevepage20 said:

    Kuss will take the stage and couple of minutes tomorrow. Jumbo will get him in the break early with remco and a couple of stronger riders like Thomas, Soler and Jumbo will trust Kuss to take the stage and who else is gonna bother chasing if doesn't affect there place on GC when bringing it back just gifts stage to Vestergaard or Roglic. Break probably get lead up to near double figure minutes before teams start to ride to protect there top 10 place.

    You are Carlton Kirby and I claim my five pound prize.
    No. Only mentioned one potential stage winner.
    Did you just disclose your alter ego?
    No. I am not Carlton Kirby.
    You could be stevepage20 though.
    Why else would you have replied to mrb123? #confused
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,927
    RichN95. said:

    TheBigBean said:

    <

    Like the gifted tour?

    1985? I think LeMond's still bitter about that one
    1985,1986, 2008 and 2012 are all contenders.
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,436
    Arf!


    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • phreak
    phreak Posts: 2,953
    Isn't this situation unusual in large part because there has never in the history of the sport been this absurd situation where 3 riders from the same team are 1-2-3 this deep into a GT (and by such a huge margin)? The nearest example is 1986, but Hampsten was 18 minutes behind Lemond in 4th space so it's not really relevant.

    We've had well-documented examples in one day races, but never in a GT.
  • DeadCalm
    DeadCalm Posts: 4,249
    LOL. "We didn't hear him."

    https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling/grischa-niermann-jumbo-visma-coach-we-agreed-at-the-beginning-of-the-week-that-all-3-would-go-for-it-it-seems-that-everyone-wants-sepp-to-stay-in-the-lead

    Grischa Niermann? That name rings a bell.
  • gweeds
    gweeds Posts: 2,613
    Feels like there’s far better PR and happy sponsors in three GT’s and 3 different winners to me.

    I’m not at all impressed with Roglic and JV turning Kuss over when he’s buried himself for them many many times.

    Napoleon, don't be jealous that I've been chatting online with babes all day. Besides, we both know that I'm training to be a cage fighter.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,161
    pblakeney said:

    kingstongraham said:

    pblakeney said:

    kingstongraham said:

    mrb123 said:

    stevepage20 said:

    Kuss will take the stage and couple of minutes tomorrow. Jumbo will get him in the break early with remco and a couple of stronger riders like Thomas, Soler and Jumbo will trust Kuss to take the stage and who else is gonna bother chasing if doesn't affect there place on GC when bringing it back just gifts stage to Vestergaard or Roglic. Break probably get lead up to near double figure minutes before teams start to ride to protect there top 10 place.

    You are Carlton Kirby and I claim my five pound prize.
    No. Only mentioned one potential stage winner.
    Did you just disclose your alter ego?
    No. I am not Carlton Kirby.
    You could be stevepage20 though.
    Why else would you have replied to mrb123? #confused
    Weird way of thinking.

    Would it help if I had said "they only mentioned one potential stage winner"?
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,161
    I post plenty of bad race predictions under this ID, wouldn't need to create a new one for that.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,337
    kingstongraham said:

    pblakeney said:

    kingstongraham said:

    pblakeney said:

    kingstongraham said:

    mrb123 said:

    stevepage20 said:

    Kuss will take the stage and couple of minutes tomorrow. Jumbo will get him in the break early with remco and a couple of stronger riders like Thomas, Soler and Jumbo will trust Kuss to take the stage and who else is gonna bother chasing if doesn't affect there place on GC when bringing it back just gifts stage to Vestergaard or Roglic. Break probably get lead up to near double figure minutes before teams start to ride to protect there top 10 place.

    You are Carlton Kirby and I claim my five pound prize.
    No. Only mentioned one potential stage winner.
    Did you just disclose your alter ego?
    No. I am not Carlton Kirby.
    You could be stevepage20 though.
    Why else would you have replied to mrb123? #confused
    Weird way of thinking.

    Would it help if I had said "Steve only mentioned one potential stage winner"?
    Would have helped.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,572
    No_Ta_Doctor said:

    r0bh said:

    No_Ta_Doctor said:

    tailwindhome said:

    I think it's odd that there's no negative attention on Vin swooping in on what was to be Roglic's race

    From the start of the season it was on the calendar for both Roglic and Vingegaard.
    Source? IIRC most were quite surprised when it was announced that Vingegaard was riding the Vuelta.
    Everyone was surprised, but it's what Jumbo said. It bears out too, it would be pretty nuts to suddenly decide to race the Vuelta with no planning in the middle of a Tour you were still trying to win.
    Given the last 24+ hours, I wouldn't believe much of what anyone at Jumbo said.
    Clear lies from their top 2 riders and the DS yesterday.
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,435
    gweeds said:

    Feels like there’s far better PR and happy sponsors in three GT’s and 3 different winners to me.

    I’m not at all impressed with Roglic and JV turning Kuss over when he’s buried himself for them many many times.

    Yeah, it doesn't really feel right.

    Roglic would not have won at least one of his GTs without Kuss so it seems a bit rich of him to say the things he's said (we just want to race etc.).
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,435
    edited September 2023
    I am only on the footage in the distance - director went helicopter shots for the bit we were in, both for Evenepoel and the main bunch. Suppose that's the problem with being in a more open part - it was pretty much just after the long flatter section on the shoulder, Evenepoel was still just in the lead. Although we chose it on the basis of having a really good view back down and further up the mountain rather than the potential to get on TV :smiley:
  • stage_hunter
    stage_hunter Posts: 317
    bobmcstuff said:

    gweeds said:

    Feels like there’s far better PR and happy sponsors in three GT’s and 3 different winners to me.

    I’m not at all impressed with Roglic and JV turning Kuss over when he’s buried himself for them many many times.

    Yeah, it doesn't really feel right.

    Roglic would not have won at least one of his GTs without Kuss so it seems a bit rich of him to say the things he's said (we just want to race etc.).
    I appear to be the only cycling fan who is pretty agnostic about what is happening.

    One thing I would say is that if Roglic and Vingegaard were just riding to get Kuss to winning the Vuelta this would be one of the worst GTs ever. It would be exceptionally boring from a GC perspective.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,161
    It does look like Vingegaard is riding to keep Roglic away from red.

    It seemed like he could have ridden away from him yesterday if he felt like it.
  • exlaser
    exlaser Posts: 268
    DeVlaeminck said:

    exlaser said:

    RichN95. said:

    This idea of rewarding Kuss for his loyalty.

    He was allowed to go in the break on stage 6. He won the stage. He gained three minutes. He's had eleven days in red. He's been allowed to ride his own race. He'll probably finish on the podium.

    This follows all the prize money and bonuses Roglic and Vingegaard have delivered for him by winning. And the higher profile and, as a result, higher salary those wins bring.

    Teams leaders have all the pressure on them. They carry a E50m team on their shoulders. Kuss has expectations, not pressure. He has the luxury of off days. Team leaders shouldn't be expected to step aside.

    They've delivered plenty for him. You can't expect them to gift him a big prize as well when they are better. And a Kuss win would forever be known as the gifted Vuelta.

    Totally agree.
    I don't. Roglic and Jionas have been paid according to their value as has Kuss - Kuss contributed to those wins its not as if Roglic and Jonas have been doling out charity to him and the rest of the team.

    Also there is no real pressure on Jonas to win here - maybe if it was Remco or Thomas ahead of him but not when its a team mate. If anything tne pressure is not to win if it's at Kuss' expense.

    The bottom line is two of these riders are paid to win grand tours and the other one is paid to help them .
    JV could have made Sepp give up the lead at any time but they luckily they havnt and it’s looks like they have given him the license to race and we should be glad of that as with out it, the last week of the tour would have been very boring.
    If he is strong enough to hold on to win that would be wonderful but the thought a GRAND TOUR should be GIFTED to him simply because Sepp seems a nice man and as a reward for doing the job he is paid to do, is simply wrong in my view.
    I do understand this is a minority view. 😀
    Van Nicholas Ventus
    Rose Xeon RS
  • r0bh
    r0bh Posts: 2,438
    The bottom line is you don't attack your teammates
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    edited September 2023
    r0bh said:

    The bottom line is you don't attack your teammates

    If you’re both racing for a Grand Tour why the f not
    _
  • dabber
    dabber Posts: 1,978
    I just hope that if they continue to shaft him we find that Kuss is not quite as easy going and friendly as he seems and gives them payback next year. Perhaps finding he "doesn't have the legs" at some vital moments when they need him.
    “You may think that; I couldn’t possibly comment!”

    Wilier Cento Uno SR/Wilier Mortirolo/Specialized Roubaix Comp/Kona Hei Hei/Calibre Bossnut
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,927
    kingstongraham said:

    It does look like Vingegaard is riding to keep Roglic away from red.

    It seemed like he could have ridden away from him yesterday if he felt like it.

    It's hard to explain what Vingegaard did yesterday. If it was all about competing on the road why not sprint for the stage or attack? It also doesn't make sense that he wants to stop Roglic winning - he is too far behind.
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,435
    stage_hunter said:

    bobmcstuff said:

    gweeds said:

    Feels like there’s far better PR and happy sponsors in three GT’s and 3 different winners to me.

    I’m not at all impressed with Roglic and JV turning Kuss over when he’s buried himself for them many many times.

    Yeah, it doesn't really feel right.

    Roglic would not have won at least one of his GTs without Kuss so it seems a bit rich of him to say the things he's said (we just want to race etc.).
    I appear to be the only cycling fan who is pretty agnostic about what is happening.

    One thing I would say is that if Roglic and Vingegaard were just riding to get Kuss to winning the Vuelta this would be one of the worst GTs ever. It would be exceptionally boring from a GC perspective.
    It's certainly true that this would be an extremely boring GC race if they were both just riding for Kuss. Not completely unprecedented to have a potentially race winning rider pacing another to a boring GC, although pacing Kuss to a 1-2-3 GC finish is mental.
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,104
    Re the "it's his job" line of argument. If Kuss was leading over Remco he wouldn't ease off because winning isn't his job. Situations evolve during races - when Jonas won the Tour in 2022 Roglic ended up working for him despite coming in as team leader.

    The problem with just saying they can race each other is - why then did Kuss let Jonas ride off the other day ? He may not have been able to win tne stage but likely he could have limited his losses. Surely you are either a team or you are rivals - and why was Roglic towing Jonas to the finish on tne Angliru - if they are racing why didnt Jonas jump him for the stage? It looked very much to me like Jonas agreed to gift the stage because he felt he couldn't ride himself into red without looking like a b@stard but if he was just following that might be ok.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,337
    exlaser said:

    DeVlaeminck said:

    exlaser said:

    RichN95. said:

    This idea of rewarding Kuss for his loyalty.

    He was allowed to go in the break on stage 6. He won the stage. He gained three minutes. He's had eleven days in red. He's been allowed to ride his own race. He'll probably finish on the podium.

    This follows all the prize money and bonuses Roglic and Vingegaard have delivered for him by winning. And the higher profile and, as a result, higher salary those wins bring.

    Teams leaders have all the pressure on them. They carry a E50m team on their shoulders. Kuss has expectations, not pressure. He has the luxury of off days. Team leaders shouldn't be expected to step aside.

    They've delivered plenty for him. You can't expect them to gift him a big prize as well when they are better. And a Kuss win would forever be known as the gifted Vuelta.

    Totally agree.
    I don't. Roglic and Jionas have been paid according to their value as has Kuss - Kuss contributed to those wins its not as if Roglic and Jonas have been doling out charity to him and the rest of the team.

    Also there is no real pressure on Jonas to win here - maybe if it was Remco or Thomas ahead of him but not when its a team mate. If anything tne pressure is not to win if it's at Kuss' expense.

    The bottom line is two of these riders are paid to win grand tours and the other one is paid to help them .
    JV could have made Sepp give up the lead at any time but they luckily they havnt and it’s looks like they have given him the license to race and we should be glad of that as with out it, the last week of the tour would have been very boring.
    If he is strong enough to hold on to win that would be wonderful but the thought a GRAND TOUR should be GIFTED to him simply because Sepp seems a nice man and as a reward for doing the job he is paid to do, is simply wrong in my view.
    I do understand this is a minority view. 😀
    There is the point that he is beating all the riders from all the other teams.
    Maybe they should up their game? Guess it's not that easy to be "gifted" a GT.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,655
    TheBigBean said:

    kingstongraham said:

    It does look like Vingegaard is riding to keep Roglic away from red.

    It seemed like he could have ridden away from him yesterday if he felt like it.

    It's hard to explain what Vingegaard did yesterday. If it was all about competing on the road why not sprint for the stage or attack? It also doesn't make sense that he wants to stop Roglic winning - he is too far behind.
    If he'd let Roglic ride away and come in with Kuss he'd have lost 19" to Roglic, plus bonus seconds, and Roglic would be right up his chuff today. That's with hindsight. When Roglic is going and Kuss can't follow he doesn't know if that's 19" or 90". He wheelsucked the whole way, let Roglic take the stage, and didn't in any way contribute to increasing the gap - but clearly showed that if it isn't Kuss winning then it's him, not Roglic.


    Honestly, if we stop overthinking things, if we drop some of the cynicism, then Vingegaard's tactics have been pretty standard and in line with what he's said the whole time. The stage 16 attack should have got a stage win and an easy ride for Kuss with UAE/Movi chasing - they just forgot to chase. Angliru he tells Kuss halfway up "You're going to win", tries to help him back onto Roglic's wheel once, sees it's not happening and Roglic isn't slowing so follows him instead.
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