The gert big music thread

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  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,435

    pblakeney said:

    The Christmas season really highlights a theory of mine that pop music is going the way of classical music, with a canon of old classics that everyone listens to all the time and the new stuff is interesting because it’s novel but very very rarely meets the dizzy heights of the past.

    The absence of good modern or new Christmas pop songs is just so obvious.

    Everyone plays the same songs over and over, year after year.

    Just had a thought on this. Christmas is very much linked to memories as a child.
    Therefore the music that evokes the most is bound to be old. Maybe.
    I'd buy it more if children weren't born every day. Christmas music was new once
    There have been a few more recent ones (as in early 21st century) added to the standard set that gets repeated ad nauseum in every shop and pub through December in the last few years although it is still mainly the stuff from that 'golden era' of the 70s to early 90s. That said I was amazed when I discovered one of the 'new' classics - the one by The Darkness - is already 20 years old. I thought it was maybe 10-12. I blame cynical millenials for killing it off and pushing for things like Rage Against The Machine to get Christmas number one (along with a decade or so of bland X Factor winning singles). That said, Gen Z's are to blame for those idiots who think they're hilarious doing the sausage roll rubbish.
  • veronese68
    veronese68 Posts: 27,289

    pblakeney said:

    The Christmas season really highlights a theory of mine that pop music is going the way of classical music, with a canon of old classics that everyone listens to all the time and the new stuff is interesting because it’s novel but very very rarely meets the dizzy heights of the past.

    The absence of good modern or new Christmas pop songs is just so obvious.

    Everyone plays the same songs over and over, year after year.

    Just had a thought on this. Christmas is very much linked to memories as a child.
    Therefore the music that evokes the most is bound to be old. Maybe.
    I'd buy it more if children weren't born every day. Christmas music was new once
    Without Googling when would you think that was?
  • I have ofter pondered the same question. There does seem to be a golden era of Christmas songs have become festive standards. My theory is that it relates to a time when everybody consumed the same popular music output as a shared experience . For example, Top of the Pops every week when there was a very limited choice of channels to watch.
    Also, maybe, the formula for writing a Christmas song has been exhausted i.e. bells, choirs, snow, whistleable melodies etc.

    Or perhaps they just don’t write them like they used to…..

    They said there'll be snow at Christmas
    They said there'll be peace on earth
    But instead it just kept on raining
    A veil of tears for the virgin birth
    I remember one Christmas morning
    A winter's light and a distant choir
    And the peal of a bell and that Christmas tree smell
    And their eyes full of tinsel and fire

    They sold me a dream of Christmas
    They sold me a silent night
    And they told me a fairy story
    'Til I believed in the Israelite
    And I believed in father Christmas
    I looked to the sky with excited eyes
    That I woke with a yawn in the first light of dawn
    And I saw him and through his disguise

    I wish you a hopeful Christmas
    I wish you a brave new year
    All anguish, pain and sadness
    Leave your heart and let your road be clear
    They said there'd be snow at Christmas
    They said there'll be peace on earth
    Hallelujah, Noel be it heaven or hell
    The Christmas we get we deserve.


    G. Lake/ S. Prokofiev.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,517

    pblakeney said:

    The Christmas season really highlights a theory of mine that pop music is going the way of classical music, with a canon of old classics that everyone listens to all the time and the new stuff is interesting because it’s novel but very very rarely meets the dizzy heights of the past.

    The absence of good modern or new Christmas pop songs is just so obvious.

    Everyone plays the same songs over and over, year after year.

    Just had a thought on this. Christmas is very much linked to memories as a child.
    Therefore the music that evokes the most is bound to be old. Maybe.
    I'd buy it more if children weren't born every day. Christmas music was new once
    Without Googling when would you think that was?
    Slade is what 70s.
    Wizard too. So that’s 50 years.

    McCartney, Lenon, Shaking Steve, wham is all 80s, Mariah Carey is 90s and then we’re running out, no?
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,706
    edited December 2023

    pblakeney said:

    The Christmas season really highlights a theory of mine that pop music is going the way of classical music, with a canon of old classics that everyone listens to all the time and the new stuff is interesting because it’s novel but very very rarely meets the dizzy heights of the past.

    The absence of good modern or new Christmas pop songs is just so obvious.

    Everyone plays the same songs over and over, year after year.

    Just had a thought on this. Christmas is very much linked to memories as a child.
    Therefore the music that evokes the most is bound to be old. Maybe.
    I'd buy it more if children weren't born every day. Christmas music was new once
    Without Googling when would you think that was?
    Slade is what 70s.
    Wizard too. So that’s 50 years.

    McCartney, Lenon, Shaking Steve, wham is all 80s, Mariah Carey is 90s and then we’re running out, no?
    Pretty much, but then I have the excuse that is my eras. Throw in the 50s & 60s.
    What's up with the young these days? 🤣 I blame the industry and media.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,435

    pblakeney said:

    The Christmas season really highlights a theory of mine that pop music is going the way of classical music, with a canon of old classics that everyone listens to all the time and the new stuff is interesting because it’s novel but very very rarely meets the dizzy heights of the past.

    The absence of good modern or new Christmas pop songs is just so obvious.

    Everyone plays the same songs over and over, year after year.

    Just had a thought on this. Christmas is very much linked to memories as a child.
    Therefore the music that evokes the most is bound to be old. Maybe.
    I'd buy it more if children weren't born every day. Christmas music was new once
    Without Googling when would you think that was?
    Slade is what 70s.
    Wizard too. So that’s 50 years.

    McCartney, Lenon, Shaking Steve, wham is all 80s, Mariah Carey is 90s and then we’re running out, no?
    Lennon was 1972 in the UK (71 in US apparently), he died in 1980. But yes, as I said above the 'golden era' was 1970s to mid 1990s although there are obviously a few older ones too.

    A personal favourite of mine is Merry Christmas Maggie Thatcher out of the Billy Elliot musical but that never gets played in shops and pubs for some reason. The sweet sounds of the children singing about Hesseltine at the end brings tears to the eyes.
  • veronese68
    veronese68 Posts: 27,289

    pblakeney said:

    The Christmas season really highlights a theory of mine that pop music is going the way of classical music, with a canon of old classics that everyone listens to all the time and the new stuff is interesting because it’s novel but very very rarely meets the dizzy heights of the past.

    The absence of good modern or new Christmas pop songs is just so obvious.

    Everyone plays the same songs over and over, year after year.

    Just had a thought on this. Christmas is very much linked to memories as a child.
    Therefore the music that evokes the most is bound to be old. Maybe.
    I'd buy it more if children weren't born every day. Christmas music was new once
    Without Googling when would you think that was?
    Slade is what 70s.
    Wizard too. So that’s 50 years.

    McCartney, Lenon, Shaking Steve, wham is all 80s, Mariah Carey is 90s and then we’re running out, no?
    Depends on where you draw the line, I'd have thought a bit older and gone 60s.
    Then I did Google, quite a few of what I'd have said are 'popular' Christmas songs date from the 50s. White Christmas dates back to 1942 however. Then there are other songs that are based on carols or traditional folk songs that are much older.
    So, I'd say the 'what you heard when you were young' rings true here.
  • monkimark
    monkimark Posts: 1,500
    Do people who were young in the 2000's/2010's have newer Xmas songs as their classics?
    From 2000 I think I only know The Wombats and The Darkness (a few others are vaguely familiar names but I wouldn't know the tune/lyrics) but I was 21 in 2000 so none of them would fall under 'what you heard when you were young'

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christmas_hit_singles_in_the_United_Kingdom

    This is criminally under represented in lists of Xmas songs, one of my favourites and just about falls into the post 2000 limit.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxqQtUQErhQ&ab_channel=richardj5
  • photonic69
    photonic69 Posts: 2,415
    Very, very, very sad day yesterday!

    Saw plenty of acts there over the years. Also cracking nightclub in my yoof.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-67623084


    Sometimes. Maybe. Possibly.

  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,001

    Very, very, very sad day yesterday!

    Saw plenty of acts there over the years. Also cracking nightclub in my yoof.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-67623084

    Yes, saw that too.
    Really need these small sweaty venues for up-and-coming bands to thrive and fill the gap between corner of a pub (where they still exist) and big arena.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,517
    edited December 2023
    Mad_Malx said:

    Very, very, very sad day yesterday!

    Saw plenty of acts there over the years. Also cracking nightclub in my yoof.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-67623084

    Yes, saw that too.
    Really need these small sweaty venues for up-and-coming bands to thrive and fill the gap between corner of a pub (where they still exist) and big arena.
    Honest question - is that still the case in 2023?

    With social meedja you don’t need to go to the gritty venue to see who’s new.

    Anyone you go see you’ll be able to check them out beforehand online to see if you like them or not.
  • monkimark
    monkimark Posts: 1,500
    But where are you going to see them? Straight from Instagram to Brixton Academy?
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,517
    monkimark said:

    But where are you going to see them? Straight from Instagram to Brixton Academy?

    well yes, I think that's what most people do.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,706
    monkimark said:

    But where are you going to see them? Straight from Instagram to Brixton Academy?

    That does explain why smaller venues are closing.
    It also explains the death of new innovative music. Be popular or fail.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,517
    edited December 2023
    pblakeney said:

    monkimark said:

    But where are you going to see them? Straight from Instagram to Brixton Academy?

    That does explain why smaller venues are closing.
    It also explains the death of new innovative music. Be popular or fail.
    So I have a theory on this, and it pertains to all culture in general.

    The theory goes like this:

    Golden eras of art are almost always precipitated by some sort of technological or artistic development or improvement.

    You see it in renaissance art where various techniques to paint more realistically are developed, you see it when there's a new paint created (water colour or acrylic etc).

    Once that flurry of creativity spurred by the new development dies down, so does the quality of the art.

    You see the same in music, especially in the 20th Century.

    In fact, I would argue music in the 20th century is more or less exclusively defined by the technological developments.

    From recording, to the electric guitar, to the 7 inch record, various recording techniques (e.g. 8 track), to the synthesiser, to the sampler, and finally full-on-digital.

    Each one produced its own golden age of music orientated around said development.

    Post 2000s, we've not really seen a new major technological development to spur on new music. Something we've not heard before.

    I'd argue it's largely the same with art more broadly. The major technological development since 2000 is basically the internet and the smartphone, and so most of the new creativity stuff occurs online and not in the real world.

    The same goes for fashion. The dramatic changes between the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s are just not seen since the 00s, largely because we have not seen major developments in fabric and clothes manufacturing like we did in those decades, so the pace of fashion change is much slower.





  • Jezyboy
    Jezyboy Posts: 2,894
    I'd argue that post 2000, the major musical development has been that you can relatively cheaply get high quality musical recordings equipment, and that you can share the recordings for free, to as many people as you want.

    In the late 00s that made Myspace very exciting for a while.

  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,517
    Probably.
  • monkimark
    monkimark Posts: 1,500
    If that's the case, I think it's a real shame. loads of bands that I like I have really got into through small gigs, often where I just turned up to see whoever was on that week or where the recorded stuff was alright but really came in to it's own in a live setting.

    monkimark said:

    But where are you going to see them? Straight from Instagram to Brixton Academy?

    well yes, I think that's what most people do.
  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,001

    Mad_Malx said:

    Very, very, very sad day yesterday!

    Saw plenty of acts there over the years. Also cracking nightclub in my yoof.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-67623084

    Yes, saw that too.
    Really need these small sweaty venues for up-and-coming bands to thrive and fill the gap between corner of a pub (where they still exist) and big arena.
    Honest question - is that still the case in 2023?

    With social meedja you don’t need to go to the gritty venue to see who’s new.

    Anyone you go see you’ll be able to check them out beforehand online to see if you like them or not.
    If your only experience of music is through a screen (or at a big event) you are missing out on one of life’s greatest pleasures.
    It’s the difference between riding outdoors and Zwift.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,517
    Look I'm not defending it especially, I go to gigs myself, but that is the reality of new music.

  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,517
    edited December 2023
    monkimark said:

    If that's the case, I think it's a real shame. loads of bands that I like I have really got into through small gigs, often where I just turned up to see whoever was on that week or where the recorded stuff was alright but really came in to it's own in a live setting.


    monkimark said:

    But where are you going to see them? Straight from Instagram to Brixton Academy?

    well yes, I think that's what most people do.
    Yeah sure. I sort of think that the younger generation spend more time curating what they like and don't like. They have access to all music all the time, so they will be much more exacting and precise with respect to who they see.

    I often see "new" bands who are unsigned on tiktok and they're often already on spotify - so I can see the video of them in their garage smashing it up, I can listen to the spotify recording and then decide if I''m gonna spend my time going to see them.

    The idea of sitting through 4 sh!te bands in the hope the 5th is good I think is pretty outdated if you're under 25. Fake Tales of San Francisco is very much a relic of the pre spotify age.

    Most of the 'scenes' now are online too, so again, you're curating who you want to listen to before you go out and see them.

    The discovery process of new music is now largely online.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,517
    I dunno how many of you have spotify or equivalent, but it totally changes your relationship with music having, within reason, anything you would want to listen to almost instantaneously.

    I often wonder what my children will think about a world before that.
  • carbonclem
    carbonclem Posts: 1,584
    I guess Spotify is linked to the loss of small venues in another way. Spotify will pay new/niche/small artists essentially no money, so they need to 'gig' to make money. Small venues can't/wont' pay big money for bands to play due to rising running costs and a drop in people being able to pay an entrance fee and a £7 pint etc, plus many places take a cut of the merch takings, so for many bands, if they don't get reasonable big reasonably quickly so they can play/support big venues (or have some kind of nepo leg up) then its over for them pretty fast.
    2020/2021/2022 Metric Century Challenge Winner
  • monkimark
    monkimark Posts: 1,500
    Well yes, i use spotify to find new bands from the comfort of my home but I'm a boring old man. If I were in my teens/twenties I would like to have some options for seeing live music near to home relatively cheaply in a smaller venue.

    I find Spotify a bit disappointing for discovering new music. The DJ is a bit better but I seem to just get the same songs over and over. Even bands I like with multiple albums, it seems to focus on a handful of songs.

    I dunno how many of you have spotify or equivalent, but it totally changes your relationship with music having, within reason, anything you would want to listen to almost instantaneously.

    I often wonder what my children will think about a world before that.

  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,001
    monkimark said:

    Well yes, i use spotify to find new bands from the comfort of my home but I'm a boring old man. If I were in my teens/twenties I would like to have some options for seeing live music near to home relatively cheaply in a smaller venue.

    My early-20s kids agree with this.

    Both my kids & I use Spoty, but there’s a big difference between what’s good live and what I listen to while doing other stuff.

    They like seeing live bands, and extended friendship groups via social media mean they go along to gigs where friends of friends are playing for the buzz & social aspect. I’ve been along to quite a few (one of them was often performing) and there is a big demand from the kids.

    The problem is there aren’t many venues with price-of-a-pint (maybe 2) admission. which is what we were initially talking about (Moles in Bath). Part of the pressure comes from Nimbys moving near long-established venues then objecting to late licences - this has happened at good places in both Bath & Bristol, but there are big problems on hospitality more generally.
  • Going to see Badly Drawn Boy tonight - slightly puzzled how he hasn't sold out the second of 2 nights at Bush Hall, capacity 400. Maybe because it's Monday.

    Also, his Christmas song, Donna and Blitzen, is really good. A proper Christmas song.
  • carbonclem
    carbonclem Posts: 1,584
    I saw BDB a couple of times when Hour of the Dewildebeast came out, then saw him last year when he was supporting Lightening Seeds. I reckon he's better now as many years sober has sorted him out. Seems a top bloke too. Enjoy it :)
    2020/2021/2022 Metric Century Challenge Winner
  • Off to see Modern Nature tonight in Birmingham. Island of Noise and No Fixed Point in Space are great albums.
  • Downloaded Cher's Christmas album as I quite liked the one she sang on Graham Nortons show and was surprised to find that there were quite a few good ones on there.

  • Also got tickets to see The Cadillac Three next year.