Cycling goals for 2023

MidlandsGrimpeur2

Yes, I was slightly wrong, just rewatched it and he is quoting the 420 figure from a 20min test, so he puts his best FTP at 400 Watts. Ugo is correct though, he said his hour record power was around 360 so not really anywhere near 400.

The current figure of 318 is from a Zwift test he does recorded on the video. I guess even the pro's do a little bit of loosely 'interpreting' the data!

ugo.santalucia

With that in mind, he said he was partial to doing a bit of domestic time trialling after retirement, so I am still hopeful one day I’ll race against him… his CTT profile is public, so I can stalk which races he enters. Obviously, it would be nice if he did road bike ones, so one could compare like for like-ish.
He did a 17:30 on a ten last summer, but it was on TT bike

wallace_and_gromit

DeVlaeminck said:

I suspect two things at play with those figures. One that he's losing watts in his hour record position. Two that he's quoting an FTP figure based off an accepted testing protocol - because that's what most of us do - and even pro cyclists typically can't sustain that figure for an hour.

I may be missing something here, but if even pro cyclists can't maintain 95% of "20 min peak power" for an hour then the 95%-based approximation for FTP simply isn't very good, given that FTP is defined as what can be maintained for an hour. If you want a truly reliable quantification of the power that can be sustained for an hour, then there is only one way to do it - full race warm up and then an hour of roughly even-paced effort that ends in darkest corner of the Hurt Box. And even that only applies to the day in question.

Not that it really matters as everyone adjusts their FTP-based training to what is physically possible, regardless of what the prescribed set is anyway.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

I may be missing something here, but if even pro cyclists can't maintain 95% of "20 min peak power" for an hour then the 95%-based approximation for FTP simply isn't very good, given that FTP is defined as what can be maintained for an hour. If you want a truly reliable quantification of the power that can be sustained for an hour, then there is only one way to do it - full race warm up and then an hour of roughly even-paced effort that ends in darkest corner of the Hurt Box. And even that only applies to the day in question.

I think that is correct and what many of us here seem to be suggesting as well. As you say (and Dan B has pointed out), take FTP as a guide and use it accordingly, as long as the ball park figure is within a few percentage points it is not going to adversely affect training zones and targets.

I would say if you really want to track improvements, then monitor numbers that you hit regularly and identify trends; peaks, troughs etc. in those. For me personally, I keep an eye on 5min and 20/30 mins out on the road and also my AP and NP over the duration of a longer ride. These numbers stay pretty consistent for me year round and are accurate (and more insightful than FTP I find).

parmos

ugo.santalucia said:

parmos said:

well this year i have got a place in the RL 100 in May so currently doing a few hours a week on the Kickr in preparedness for that will up it in due course.

background with me is always been on a bike for leisure MTB'd quite hard in the late 90s early 00's (french alps and all that) then settled down a bit started working away got heavily involved in weight training then started putting lots of weight on (some not so good) got heavily into powerlifting and strongman and weight went up to over 110kg at 5ft 9in so quite heavy for height a few year ago got back on my bike again after a bad DVT in my lower leg and went more fitness related now still weight train but just for leisure purposes only. Last few years i've approx done about 4000 miles a year not all road still plenty of gravel & MTB rides in that.
This year i want to smash my previous totals still work away so i'm limited now and again but tend to put one of the bikes in the car regardless.

current stats
age:48
Weight: aprox 100-102kg
2.79W/KG
1057 : 1 sec
400 : 2mins
281 : 20mins
263 : 30mins
237 : 1Hr
182 : 2hrs
all these stats are on my Kickr with Zwift got a lot of leg power as legs are still quite large and powerful.

I make the FTP at 2.37 W/kg.
1 second power doesn’t mean a lot, it’s just a random number, 15 seconds is more telling. It would be interesting to see the short time power numbers which should be more impressive than the more aerobic figures, for an ex weight lifter.

Keep up the good work

1 sec 1057
3 Sep 2021

2 sec1047
Sep 2021

5 sec 972
18 Dec 2021

10 sec 934
18 Dec 2021

20 sec 808
23 Nov 2022

30 sec 718
3 Sep 2021

1 min 517
3 Sep 2021

2 min 400
31 Jan 2022

5 min 314
19 Oct 2022

10 min 296
19 Oct 2022

20 min 277
18 Oct 2021

30 min 263
7 May 2021

1 hr 237
18 Feb 2022

2 hr 182
21 Oct 2022

just copied from my garmin and the W/KG is just off garmin as well not got power meters on bikes just the stats are from the Kickr/Zwift
@ugo.santalucia

dannbodge

dannbodge said:

- 5250km total (mix of indoor and outdoor)
- Get my fitness back up (Strava suggests it's at "27" where as it should be double that)
- Get back to sub 68kg
- Get FTP back up to 275w (assumption that i've lost some power - complete guess atm)
- Increase 5 min power

Well FTP came out at 272w on my ramp test tonight so at least I know where is stand.
Will be doing another test in a couple of weeks to get my 5 and 1min power values.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

dannbodge said:

dannbodge said:

- 5250km total (mix of indoor and outdoor)
- Get my fitness back up (Strava suggests it's at "27" where as it should be double that)
- Get back to sub 68kg
- Get FTP back up to 275w (assumption that i've lost some power - complete guess atm)
- Increase 5 min power

Well FTP came out at 272w on my ramp test tonight so at least I know where is stand.
Will be doing another test in a couple of weeks to get my 5 and 1min power values.

Great if comparing FTP estimates from same method, I've always found ramp tests flatter me a bit compared to other ways of getting an estimate.

DeVlaeminck

wallace_and_gromit said:

DeVlaeminck said:

I suspect two things at play with those figures. One that he's losing watts in his hour record position. Two that he's quoting an FTP figure based off an accepted testing protocol - because that's what most of us do - and even pro cyclists typically can't sustain that figure for an hour.

I may be missing something here, but if even pro cyclists can't maintain 95% of "20 min peak power" for an hour then the 95%-based approximation for FTP simply isn't very good, given that FTP is defined as what can be maintained for an hour. If you want a truly reliable quantification of the power that can be sustained for an hour, then there is only one way to do it - full race warm up and then an hour of roughly even-paced effort that ends in darkest corner of the Hurt Box. And even that only applies to the day in question.

Not that it really matters as everyone adjusts their FTP-based training to what is physically possible, regardless of what the prescribed set is anyway.

I agree - whether people aren't following the protocol properly or that it just over estimates FTP for most of us...I suspect a bit of both.

dannbodge

N0bodyOfTheGoat said:

dannbodge said:

dannbodge said:

- 5250km total (mix of indoor and outdoor)
- Get my fitness back up (Strava suggests it's at "27" where as it should be double that)
- Get back to sub 68kg
- Get FTP back up to 275w (assumption that i've lost some power - complete guess atm)
- Increase 5 min power

Well FTP came out at 272w on my ramp test tonight so at least I know where is stand.
Will be doing another test in a couple of weeks to get my 5 and 1min power values.

Great if comparing FTP estimates from same method, I've always found ramp tests flatter me a bit compared to other ways of getting an estimate.

For some reason whichever test I do, they all come out around the same.
Previous 4DP (20min effort) was 275w, Best 1hr power is 273 (I think), Ramp test is 272w and 95% of 20mins is 275w.

So having done all the different methods, I'm fairly confident that it's correct.

Annoyingly I think I could have gone a tiny bit longer but lost my head.

ugo.santalucia

dannbodge said:

Annoyingly I think I could have gone a tiny bit longer but lost my head.

That's what we always think, but the failure point is fairly reproducible... if you look at the cadence, there should be a marked drop in the last 30 seconds or so.

By repeating the test, you can probably improve by targeting those extra 5 seconds or whatever, but I am not sure it is a good way of doing the test... a test should be just that, one shouldn't get "good at it"

MidlandsGrimpeur2

Annoyingly I think I could have gone a tiny bit longer but lost my head.

I don't think it makes much difference with a Ramp test. I have bailed on them before in lab tests when I could have probably squeezed an extra 20 or 30 seconds or so, but at that point you are unlikely to be producing any more power and will have already recorded your best numbers.

Obviously if you could have carried on for 2 or 3 minutes that is a different story

dannbodge

Not sure I could have done 2-3mins.
Maybe 30 sec - 1min at a push

Cadence didn't really drop off:


Compared to the whole ramp section

drhaggis

While you guys were discussing your power outputs, I managed to fail (one of) my 2023 goals by falling not once, but twice already.

I should be thankful that the second time, when I fell all alone and on my own, was nothing more serious than some lost skin on my left little finger, and a pair of gloves to the rubbish. Could have been so much worse without the gloves...

daniel_b

drhaggis said:

While you guys were discussing your power outputs, I managed to fail (one of) my 2023 goals by falling not once, but twice already.

I should be thankful that the second time, when I fell all alone and on my own, was nothing more serious than some lost skin on my left little finger, and a pair of gloves to the rubbish. Could have been so much worse without the gloves...

Unlucky DrH, but as you say, in the scheme of things you may have gotten off lightly.

Earlier this week, as the forecast looked sunny, and I had the week off, I decided today would be the day to ride down to the coast.

I saw the forecast for mist and fog but thought it couldn't be that bad. In hindsight I should have gone with a front light, but that didn't end up causing me any issues.

About a quarter of the way in, was pretty soaked due to the low cloud, as of course were the roads.
Couple of cars behind me, and was pushing on.
Slight downhill that led to a tighter than anticipated right hand corner.
Braking harder than I would have liked, probably travelling at around 35kmh, the rear wheel kicked out on me.
One of those situations where everything slows down and I had time to think I was about to lay my lovely bike down gear side, probably destroy it and my new jacket, and end up in a hedge.
Then I let off the brake, grip was regained, and critically I made it around the corner upright, if a bit of an AG2R shorts moment.

I did temper things a tad more for the rest of the ride.

In wattage news, I was pretty consistent with my power output, and managed to average 76% of my ftp over the 3 hours.

Pretty pleased with that figure, even more so as it was without the motivation of riding with friends, and conditions were utterly censored.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

In wattage news, I was pretty consistent with my power output, and managed to average 76% of my ftp over the 3 hours.

I think a lot of cyclists forget to look at metrics like this. Most of us focus on FTP, 5min power etc. but the ability to ride at a high % of FTP over longer durations is a good indictor of overall fitness, particular aerobic fitness.

I think anyone that can hold 85-90% for 90mins- 2hrs or 70-75% for 3hrs+ has good fitness levels.

daniel_b

Thanks @MidlandsGrimpeur2 , that gave me a bit of food for thought for my club ride today.

I could tell from the route it took in a lot of my favourite (larger and faster) local roads, and I could see we had some fast riders signed up.

Went with a thin jersey plus my perfetto jacket, as assume I would be working hard, and that worked out perfectly.

Having said that, the pace was pretty furious from the off, and I was not warmed up at all, having a 5 minute ride through town streets to get there, and being close, I stupidly always cut it very fine

For the first 20 minutes my average was slightly above my ftp, and that was mostly sitting in the wheels - I had concerns about staying with the group at this point, but happily things settled down a little bit not long after.

My aim had been to average 80% of my ftp across the 64km ride, so likely to be something in the region of 2.5 hours.
My average dropped from over 100% of my ftp to around 85%, and then for the last ~30km it all started to kick off, and I found I had the legs for repeated efforts, which was a nice surprise.

My favourite part of the ride back was a slight downhill and lengthy segment (Only realised post ride), where I managed to beat my pb by some margin, and average exactly my ftp for the full 19.5km, completing it in a touch over 32 minutes, and that was taking turns on the front as well - though admittedly towards the end I thought I was cooked, but managed to keep responding to friendly efforts from my clubmates.

Final figure for *2hrs 16 ride time was 92% of ftp - hugely chuffed with that, and I think my backing off of the turbo sessions really seems to have paid dividends, which I wasn't expecting, and isn't the reason I did it.

*There were 2 micro stops in there, 30 seconds at most, and maybe one 90 second one where a woman adjusted the saddle height on her rather nice new bike.

Looking at the strava power curves, this is the by some margin the best power I have managed to put out ever it would seem, and in some cases by a pretty large number.

1 minute power was 194% of ftp
5 minute power = 129%
20 minute = 108%

I did keep an eye on the numbers, but I wasn't riding to power really, well only when on the front so I could try and measure my effort and not create splits, and also so I didn't blow up through simply going too hard.

Despite the heavier bike, lots of clothing, and it not being very warm, todays was definitely my most enjoyable ride of this year, and probably for several months to be fair, since the IOW, and Ride London last year which were both hugely enjoyable.

Apologies for the essay - I don't believe any of the above were my stated aims earlier in the thread

MidlandsGrimpeur2

Cheers @daniel_b

No need to apologise, all this stuff is v interesting.

Interesting about the fast start to the ride. I remember Magnus Backstedt saying that he was terrible at the start of races if it all kicked off, as he was a slow starter. He actually started to train with intense 15-20 minute efforts at the very beginning of a ride to get him used to it.

I think riding with fast riders is the best way to get a true test of your numbers, I always think pushing beyond your perceived limits only happens with other riders, rather than solo. 92% of ftp over 2 hrs is extremely impressive, I don't think I have ever been much beyond 80-85%.

Your 1min, 5min and 20min are also really strong, and actually pushing those numbers out over the course of a much longer ride is also a a really clear indicator of fitness. I have a small hill which comes at round the 4hr mark of my long rides. I like to finish with a 30 second sprint on most rides to check how my power is still holding up at the end of a long ride.

One thing I have been thinking about is whether I get a bit more structured in training this year, just purely out of interest to see where I can get my numbers. I ride a lot but there is not real structure to it, and turbo sessions seem to either be on ERG for recovery or the same interval sessions. I have mentioned on previous threads that I know with age, my recovery is also longer, and this I something I have still not got to grips with.

I suspect I am moving into the phase, age wise, of needing to be a bit smarter, bringing down volume and doing the hard rides hard and the easy rides easy (a cliché I know) as I suspect I am doing too much volume at moderate intensity with not much in between. This keeps me fit but I could probably squeeze an extra 5% out being a bit more judicious with my training time.

I was out last week and a lad came past that was obviously a high level racer (saw on Strava after he was a 1st cat with a semi pro team). I did manage to sit on his wheel relatively comfortably but I suspect had he floored it I would have been left behind. Still, it did give me some encouragement that I still have a good few years left in me!

ugo.santalucia

If you have achieved the best 1 minute, 5 minutes and 20 minutes figures in the same ride, the most likely scenario is that you haven't tried very hard previously and your FTP estimate might be lower than the actual.
If I do my best minute, I am very unlikely to do my best 5 minutes on the same day and the best 20 minutes in the same week

daniel_b

@MidlandsGrimpeur2 - historically for me, unless I am warmed up before a ride that starts fast, I then really struggle later on in the ride.

I presume because maybe I am trying to get stuck in and get on the front, where as this time due to monitoring my average power I was able to see the potential issue, and ride a bit more wisely (for me) which seemed to save the day, but I found that very encouraging that I could survive the fast start for 20 odd minutes, and then still have some performance later on in the ride.

Prior to yesterdays ride I wouldn't have been beyond those types of figures either, looking back on strava a couple of years ago I managed figures not that far off on an RGT 'stage' that I think involved Ventoux, but I found it fascinating I was able to generate that average power over a rolling course and as part of a group.

I was the only one on 40mm tyres, so I guess I had to work harder than the average rider out there, which I guess works to my favour in terms of training.

I like your 30 second sprint at the end of the ride plan - presumably you have a little spin down before reaching home?

I'd definitely say it is a smart idea to look at some more structured training, at the very least it will motivate you to complete a number of months to see how it affects you, and in the best scenario you could well see some real world gains.

In the past I have always struggled to get anywhere near my indoor power figures (Tacx neo og) out on the road, although that was with some Garmin vector 2 pedals, and I am now running a 4i power crank, so it might just be possible that the vectors were running a bit low.

I had been struggling with some previous workouts on the turbo trainer, and in fact trainerroad had revised my ftp down by 10 watts or so, although on the workouts I have completed since (only a couple) that has felt pretty much the right level.
It's also entirely possible that the 4i is reading higher than the Neo - as the Neo is famously meant to be brutally accurate, as well as reading from a different source as it were.
I'd also been struggling with my cadence indoors, but on this outdoor ride it averaged at a very reasonable 82.

I wonder if a bit of time off, combined with a group ride of 10 riders and getting caught up in the thrill of the ride as it were, has simply allowed me to generate my best power figures out on the road.
I doubt I would have managed to generate that power output riding solo for example, much as I appreciate it is clearly possible.

I'm guilty of choosing a ride that is within my capabilities, but this has made me think I need to get onto the faster groups, test myself, and if I blow up, so be it - I think that will be a good and 'enjoyable' way to gain some fitness out on the road.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

Maybe I'm misreading your post @daniel_b while I'm really groggy, but when you go out solo, do you not usually head out planning to see if you can get anywhere near your best time/power for a segment or two? Or simply put down a "marker" effort to try and beat later in the year?

Unless I'm planning to do something like a rare ~50+ mile ride or I'm recovering from lurgy/injury, I will almost always give at least one segment (usually hilly) an all-out effort if I'm heading to the South Downs lanes.

daniel_b

N0bodyOfTheGoat said:

Maybe I'm misreading your post @daniel_b while I'm really groggy, but when you go out solo, do you not usually head out planning to see if you can get anywhere near your best time/power for a segment or two? Or simply put down a "marker" effort to try and beat later in the year?

Unless I'm planning to do something like a rare ~50+ mile ride or I'm recovering from lurgy/injury, I will almost always give at least one segment (usually hilly) an all-out effort if I'm heading to the South Downs lanes.

Hey @N0bodyOfTheGoat , that would be logical eh, but for some reason I don't tend to regularly target a specific segment or segments, not really sure why.

Sometimes I will target a specific climb, but generally I go on feel, average speed, though I tend to ignore that now, and average power is more what I am looking at over the entire ride.

Generally when I have pr'd a segment, it has been a co-incidence in that I just happened to be pushing on that part

Agreed though, that would be a viable tactic for solo rides, and one I will look to implement.

I do have some shorter routes I ride, between 20-40 miles where I basically warm up, and then go as hard as I can, spending a lot of time in the drops - but again that's measuring my effort for the duration of the ride, and ensuring I can complete it well - though yesterdays figures lead me to believe I can probably get more out of myself.

I know this is nothing amazing, but it would seem for a handful of seconds I hit a tad over 1000w on yesterdays ride, something I have never achieved before, and I can see that was very close to the end of the ride as well.

I'm still on the winter bike, and the summer bike won't be out until end of March at the earliest if the weather improves, otherwise April - hoping the time spent maxing out my watts on 40mm tyres will yield dividends once I swap to a lighter bike wearing 25s or 28s, and with more aero credentials.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

I definitely think pushing yourself on the group ride was the key factor in putting out your best numbers @daniel_b.

I am similar in that I probably don't push myself as hard as possible on solo rides. The only time I will really dig in is when I come across a stronger rider and they don't mind riding a bit of through and off together, that is when I tend to see bigger 5 and 20min power numbers.

I noticed from the other thread that your cadence was lower on one of the turbo sessions you posted, interesting that your power numbers are generally better than the road, even with the lower cadence. Part of my plan for better recovery, as mentioned a while back on another thread, has been to up cadence in smaller gears which I have found helps, although recently I have got back into the bad habit of grinding bigger gears again.

Interesting you mention time off. That is one thing I don't do, I haven't gone more than 3-4 days without riding in the last 7 or 8 years. I do think about just taking a week or two off the bike, no riding at all, to see if this actually makes a difference to power numbers when I re-start. I just can't bring myself to actually do it!

With regards a spin home after the hill effort, in truth I don't. This probably relates back to lack of sensible recovery again. I know I should finish a ride with 5-10 minutes easy but I just never do. It doesn't help that after the hill it is a flattish 2 mile run home down a busy road. It is easier just to give it full gas to get home faster and also, I found it discourages drivers from doing daft passes if I am chugging along at 25mph.

daniel_b

Yep agreed, that has to be the main factor - clearly I should go for a faster group than I think I can manage, and see if I can repeat, maybe not every week, but at least every other, or based upon what the intensity of workouts/commutes I have carried out during the preceding week.

I'll be interested to see how the cadence fairs on future workouts, I half wonder if I was in a bit of a rut as it were, maybe through fatigue, which had pushed my cadence lower - the workout I did on Thursday was 15 lots of 120 or 125% of ftp for 1 minute with 2 minute rest periods.
For all of those I started with my cadence high, around 100 or higher, and let it naturally fall - from memory they all ended up at around mid 80s average, and I wasn't grinding in any of them, or thinking I would not complete one.

I wonder if it is worth on a long ride alternating low cadence and higher cadence to give cardio/muscles more of a rest, maybe 75 & 95, I might try that on a ride and see how it goes.

That's pretty darned impressive to ride that consistently for that number of years, some serious commitment.
I too struggle to 'take time off' but in this instance I pulled a muscle in my neck which was quite uncomfortable, so it was a necessity - looking at my calendar, it was 8 entire days I did not ride.

In the past 16 days after that, I have completed 4 rides outside at fairly decent effort levels, and 4 turbo workouts, endurance, tempo, sweet spot and vo2, but I have a feeling the forced rest from that 8 day break has re-invigorated my riding.
We'll see how long it lasts!

ugo.santalucia

It turns out my 289 W from the ramp test is a wild overestimate.
I did an RGT session earlier, using that number as FTP setting… I could go the 15 s intervals at 500W no problem, but when it came to the 1 minute at 435W I ground to a halt at the end of the second interval, which makes sense, as I think 430 is my max power output over 2 minutes, so doing 1 minute reps at that value as part of a session seems very demanding indeed.
FTP is as good as guesswork, as different trainers used numbers obtained in different ways and clearly this is not based on a ramp test, but more likely is the real thing.
I think I will lower the number to 275 and see how I get on. I want to be the session to be at the limit, but doable… no point in sessions I have to give up half the way through

johngti

I want to actually ride my bike. Every week. That’s my only target

MidlandsGrimpeur2

FTP is as good as guesswork, as different trainers used numbers obtained in different ways and clearly this is not based on a ramp test, but more likely is the real thing.
I think I will lower the number to 275 and see how I get on. I want to be the session to be at the limit, but doable… no point in sessions I have to give up half the way through

Sensible Ugo. As I think I have mentioned before, I know from experience that trying to ascertain an FTP based on shorter power durations, and other metrics, overestimates what I believe to be my actual FTP by around 15-20 watts IMO.

Always better to knock it down if you are struggling to finish sessions as this will give you a more realistic set of zones to work within.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

I want to actually ride my bike. Every week. That’s my only target

Nothing wrong with that at all, John.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

In light of the predicted (but never materialised) heavy rain this afternoon, I did a ride replacement on the turbo.

I combine two separate sessions (low zone endurance and sub threshold/vo2 intervals) into one longer session.

I know most on here only do shorter turbo sessions but if anyone is interested.

Session as follows:

55 min @ 55% ftp
45 min @ 65% ftp
5 min easy pedalling
10 min @ 75% ftp
5 min easy ped
2 x 5min @ 85% ftp (with 2 min easy in between intervals)
5 min easy ped
3 x 2 mins @ 95% ftp (1 min easy in between)
5 min easy ped
6 x 1 min @ 110% ftp (30 secs easy in between).
5 min warm down

daniel_b

That looks like a well structured workout - something around 2hr 40?

I've been known to do pretty long turbo sessions, I think maybe 3.5 hours is the longest possibly so far.

I'm guessing you need to fuel and hydrate pretty well to manage those harder efforts in the last 40 odd minutes - seems quite a tough finish, do you find it a struggle, or merely a challenge?

MidlandsGrimpeur2

Yes, pretty much 2hr 40min as you say Dan. I think building up through the intensity over a longer period definitely works. You can also do the shorter intervals section as a 50min standalone which works quite nicely as well.

I tend to eat what I would have on a 4hr+ ride outdoors and probably double the amount of energy drink (I don't tend to bother with water on the turbo).

Usually a challenge more than a struggle, although depends how fresh I am! I do the intervals in ERG mode (I ride a 50 x 13 and keep above 90rpm). I will know if I am struggling as cadence will dip on that last set of 6 x 1min. If I can maintain above 90rpm at that point I know I am pretty fresh.