Cycling goals for 2023

webboo

DeVlaeminck said:

Ok

ugo.santalucia said:

DeVlaeminck said:

Re coaching - I've never had a coach but I've seen some get definite benefits. One guy in our club went from struggling to finish local midweek road races in the bunch to a sub 20 minute TT. That one did make me think hang on 2 years ago you couldn't hold my wheel and now you are averaging 30mph + , but I guess I could just never really be a rsed to take it that seriously.

Is that on a road bike?
If not, you have to be careful, aerodynamic improvements trump power improvements big time.
I know people who can "beat the hour" with a mere 200W... I'd need 260-270 W at least... which in theory I should be very capable of doing, it's below my FTP, but in practice I've never managed on a 25.
I think this was my best power in a 10 TT, sporting course, so the time sucks, but on the day it was probably the second fastest on a road bike

https://www.strava.com/activities/6811440125

No he had a nice TT bike but a sub 20 is still decent isn't it ? I know it's not what it was at one time but this guy was struggling to finish a fairly flat 3/4 in the bunch previously.

When I was racing it wasn’t unusual for someone to be able to win of the local evening 10’s but then be unable to ride with the bunch in a 3rd cat race.
It’s one thing be able to ride at constant power or pace and another to be consistently having to accelerate.

manxshred

https://www.trainerroad.com/blog/is-my-ftp-too-low/

I personally think that the expectations of anyone getting to 300w is not based in reality. My best ever had a 270w @ 71kg (3.8w/kg) off of a 20 min test, and that year I was the fittest I have ever been. I guess quitting my job and doing this full time would see some gains, but the reality is that I will never have a massive power to weight.

pep.fermi

Runner here.
But always injuried, that's why I'm a cyclist too.

My last 3yr were particularly good in cycling, because 1) running injury, could run only very little, and 2) covid forced home office which resulted in more flexibility, and more time available for cycling.
So I did over >10,000km/yr and >120,000m elevation for each of the last 3yr.
This year back to normal abnormal working time, >10,000 km still realistic cycling goal (ironically, it all depend on running injuries). But way with cycling almost entirely limited to weekend, living in boring flatland, pity >50,000m is unrealistic.

DeVlaeminck

webboo said:

DeVlaeminck said:

Ok

ugo.santalucia said:

DeVlaeminck said:

Re coaching - I've never had a coach but I've seen some get definite benefits. One guy in our club went from struggling to finish local midweek road races in the bunch to a sub 20 minute TT. That one did make me think hang on 2 years ago you couldn't hold my wheel and now you are averaging 30mph + , but I guess I could just never really be a rsed to take it that seriously.

Is that on a road bike?
If not, you have to be careful, aerodynamic improvements trump power improvements big time.
I know people who can "beat the hour" with a mere 200W... I'd need 260-270 W at least... which in theory I should be very capable of doing, it's below my FTP, but in practice I've never managed on a 25.
I think this was my best power in a 10 TT, sporting course, so the time sucks, but on the day it was probably the second fastest on a road bike

https://www.strava.com/activities/6811440125

No he had a nice TT bike but a sub 20 is still decent isn't it ? I know it's not what it was at one time but this guy was struggling to finish a fairly flat 3/4 in the bunch previously.

When I was racing it wasn’t unusual for someone to be able to win of the local evening 10’s but then be unable to ride with the bunch in a 3rd cat race.
It’s one thing be able to ride at constant power or pace and another to be consistently having to accelerate.

Yes I've road raced and TTed and I can't believe anyone that can crack 20 minutes for a 10 can't finish a midweek 3/4 in the bunch - you'd have the horsepower to ride round at the back.

webboo

When I was racing folk were not breaking 20 minutes for a local 10. I think I done a few 23’s but could still get shelled out the back in a thirds and juniors race.

ugo.santalucia

DeVlaeminck said:

webboo said:

DeVlaeminck said:

Ok

ugo.santalucia said:

DeVlaeminck said:

Re coaching - I've never had a coach but I've seen some get definite benefits. One guy in our club went from struggling to finish local midweek road races in the bunch to a sub 20 minute TT. That one did make me think hang on 2 years ago you couldn't hold my wheel and now you are averaging 30mph + , but I guess I could just never really be a rsed to take it that seriously.

Is that on a road bike?
If not, you have to be careful, aerodynamic improvements trump power improvements big time.
I know people who can "beat the hour" with a mere 200W... I'd need 260-270 W at least... which in theory I should be very capable of doing, it's below my FTP, but in practice I've never managed on a 25.
I think this was my best power in a 10 TT, sporting course, so the time sucks, but on the day it was probably the second fastest on a road bike

https://www.strava.com/activities/6811440125

No he had a nice TT bike but a sub 20 is still decent isn't it ? I know it's not what it was at one time but this guy was struggling to finish a fairly flat 3/4 in the bunch previously.

When I was racing it wasn’t unusual for someone to be able to win of the local evening 10’s but then be unable to ride with the bunch in a 3rd cat race.
It’s one thing be able to ride at constant power or pace and another to be consistently having to accelerate.

Yes I've road raced and TTed and I can't believe anyone that can crack 20 minutes for a 10 can't finish a midweek 3/4 in the bunch - you'd have the horsepower to ride round at the back.

There's lots of riders who are very good at riding around threshold but they fall apart if they have to dig into red, which is what bunch racing is all about.

parmos

well this year i have got a place in the RL 100 in May so currently doing a few hours a week on the Kickr in preparedness for that will up it in due course.

background with me is always been on a bike for leisure MTB'd quite hard in the late 90s early 00's (french alps and all that) then settled down a bit started working away got heavily involved in weight training then started putting lots of weight on (some not so good) got heavily into powerlifting and strongman and weight went up to over 110kg at 5ft 9in so quite heavy for height!! A few year ago got back on my bike again after a bad DVT in my lower leg and went more fitness related now still weight train but just for leisure purposes only. Last few years i've approx done about 4000 miles a year not all road still plenty of gravel & MTB rides in that.
This year i want to smash my previous totals still work away so i'm limited now and again but tend to put one of the bikes in the car regardless.

current stats
age:48
Weight: aprox 100-102kg
2.79W/KG
1057 : 1 sec
400 : 2mins
281 : 20mins
263 : 30mins
237 : 1Hr
182 : 2hrs
all these stats are on my Kickr with Zwift got a lot of leg power as legs are still quite large and powerful.

ugo.santalucia

parmos said:

well this year i have got a place in the RL 100 in May so currently doing a few hours a week on the Kickr in preparedness for that will up it in due course.

background with me is always been on a bike for leisure MTB'd quite hard in the late 90s early 00's (french alps and all that) then settled down a bit started working away got heavily involved in weight training then started putting lots of weight on (some not so good) got heavily into powerlifting and strongman and weight went up to over 110kg at 5ft 9in so quite heavy for height a few year ago got back on my bike again after a bad DVT in my lower leg and went more fitness related now still weight train but just for leisure purposes only. Last few years i've approx done about 4000 miles a year not all road still plenty of gravel & MTB rides in that.
This year i want to smash my previous totals still work away so i'm limited now and again but tend to put one of the bikes in the car regardless.

current stats
age:48
Weight: aprox 100-102kg
2.79W/KG
1057 : 1 sec
400 : 2mins
281 : 20mins
263 : 30mins
237 : 1Hr
182 : 2hrs
all these stats are on my Kickr with Zwift got a lot of leg power as legs are still quite large and powerful.

I make the FTP at 2.37 W/kg.
1 second power doesn’t mean a lot, it’s just a random number, 15 seconds is more telling. It would be interesting to see the short time power numbers which should be more impressive than the more aerobic figures, for an ex weight lifter.

Keep up the good work

MattFalle

how are you working out w/kg Ugo?

will Zwift be accurate?

am just about to head away so intrigued to see before and after figures.

phil485

Be fit enough to race my TT bike after slipping3 discs late last year

daniel_b

dannbodge said:

Fwiw my FTP is my one hour effort.

Somehow my 95% of 20min, ramp test and 1 hour all are within a few watts of each other (like 2 or 3). All indoors on a Tacx Neo

Meant to reply to this.

The late and great Dr Louis Passfield had some recent videos last year when he was trying to regain his fitness.
I'll paraphrase the stats he came out with, but it was along the lines of a riders theoretical FTP is very rarely what they can actually achieve for an hour.

Some stats that I think I recall correctly were that:

- A typical amateur rider could hold that value for 38 minutes
- A pro rider on average manages 52 minutes

I think he went full out, and also managed 52 minutes, perhaps a bit more.

I have only tried once to ride outside at threshold for an hour, using a different power meter admittedly, so not calibrated it against my Neo, but went flat out for an hour outside, and managed to get to 97% of my FTP value for that hour, which was more than I had hoped for.

pblakeney

None, zip, nada.

daniel_b said:

dannbodge said:

Fwiw my FTP is my one hour effort.

Somehow my 95% of 20min, ramp test and 1 hour all are within a few watts of each other (like 2 or 3). All indoors on a Tacx Neo

Meant to reply to this.

The late and great Dr Louis Passfield had some recent videos last year when he was trying to regain his fitness.
I'll paraphrase the stats he came out with, but it was along the lines of a riders theoretical FTP is very rarely what they can actually achieve for an hour.

Some stats that I think I recall correctly were that:

- A typical amateur rider could hold that value for 38 minutes
- A pro rider on average manages 52 minutes

I think he went full out, and also managed 52 minutes, perhaps a bit more.

I have only tried once to ride outside at threshold for an hour, using a different power meter admittedly, so not calibrated it against my Neo, but went flat out for an hour outside, and managed to get to 97% of my FTP value for that hour, which was more than I had hoped for.

I'd go as far as 45 minutes of FTP based on a 20 minute test but a definite taper off after that. Even less after 90 minutes.

ugo.santalucia

MattFalle said:

how are you working out w/kg Ugo?

will Zwift be accurate?

am just about to head away so intrigued to see before and after figures.

Just divide your power figure by your body weight in kg…

Zwift will be accurate, so is Strava… you can take your power output curve, you could for instance use the one for the last 6 weeks or so, and find the power output at any given unit of time

ugo.santalucia

pblakeney said:

None, zip, nada.

daniel_b said:

dannbodge said:

Fwiw my FTP is my one hour effort.

Somehow my 95% of 20min, ramp test and 1 hour all are within a few watts of each other (like 2 or 3). All indoors on a Tacx Neo

Meant to reply to this.

The late and great Dr Louis Passfield had some recent videos last year when he was trying to regain his fitness.
I'll paraphrase the stats he came out with, but it was along the lines of a riders theoretical FTP is very rarely what they can actually achieve for an hour.

Some stats that I think I recall correctly were that:

- A typical amateur rider could hold that value for 38 minutes
- A pro rider on average manages 52 minutes

I think he went full out, and also managed 52 minutes, perhaps a bit more.

I have only tried once to ride outside at threshold for an hour, using a different power meter admittedly, so not calibrated it against my Neo, but went flat out for an hour outside, and managed to get to 97% of my FTP value for that hour, which was more than I had hoped for.

I'd go as far as 45 minutes of FTP based on a 20 minute test but a definite taper off after that. Even less after 90 minutes.

In practice it is irrelevant how long you can keep that power figure for. FTP is there to inform training and if the number you use allows you to do sessions which result in improvements, then it is a good enough number, otherwise it is not a good number. Improvements are best judged on results, being that KOM times or results in races or PB in testing, rather than on further FTP tests looking better.

pblakeney

ugo.santalucia said:

pblakeney said:

None, zip, nada.

daniel_b said:

dannbodge said:

Fwiw my FTP is my one hour effort.

Somehow my 95% of 20min, ramp test and 1 hour all are within a few watts of each other (like 2 or 3). All indoors on a Tacx Neo

Meant to reply to this.

The late and great Dr Louis Passfield had some recent videos last year when he was trying to regain his fitness.
I'll paraphrase the stats he came out with, but it was along the lines of a riders theoretical FTP is very rarely what they can actually achieve for an hour.

Some stats that I think I recall correctly were that:

- A typical amateur rider could hold that value for 38 minutes
- A pro rider on average manages 52 minutes

I think he went full out, and also managed 52 minutes, perhaps a bit more.

I have only tried once to ride outside at threshold for an hour, using a different power meter admittedly, so not calibrated it against my Neo, but went flat out for an hour outside, and managed to get to 97% of my FTP value for that hour, which was more than I had hoped for.

I'd go as far as 45 minutes of FTP based on a 20 minute test but a definite taper off after that. Even less after 90 minutes.

In practice it is irrelevant how long you can keep that power figure for. FTP is there to inform training and if the number you use allows you to do sessions which result in improvements, then it is a good enough number, otherwise it is not a good number. Improvements are best judged on results, being that KOM times or results in races or PB in testing, rather than on further FTP tests looking better.

Yeah, I don't pay it that much attention. I use it only to base training sessions on it and I don't do much of that. It's mostly that I noticed I couldn't maintain my FTP for an hour on a long climb when that's what it is specifically supposed to give you.
My legs and heart decide these days. 😉

ugo.santalucia

pblakeney said:

ugo.santalucia said:

pblakeney said:

None, zip, nada.

daniel_b said:

dannbodge said:

Fwiw my FTP is my one hour effort.

Somehow my 95% of 20min, ramp test and 1 hour all are within a few watts of each other (like 2 or 3). All indoors on a Tacx Neo

Meant to reply to this.

The late and great Dr Louis Passfield had some recent videos last year when he was trying to regain his fitness.
I'll paraphrase the stats he came out with, but it was along the lines of a riders theoretical FTP is very rarely what they can actually achieve for an hour.

Some stats that I think I recall correctly were that:

- A typical amateur rider could hold that value for 38 minutes
- A pro rider on average manages 52 minutes

I think he went full out, and also managed 52 minutes, perhaps a bit more.

I have only tried once to ride outside at threshold for an hour, using a different power meter admittedly, so not calibrated it against my Neo, but went flat out for an hour outside, and managed to get to 97% of my FTP value for that hour, which was more than I had hoped for.

I'd go as far as 45 minutes of FTP based on a 20 minute test but a definite taper off after that. Even less after 90 minutes.

In practice it is irrelevant how long you can keep that power figure for. FTP is there to inform training and if the number you use allows you to do sessions which result in improvements, then it is a good enough number, otherwise it is not a good number. Improvements are best judged on results, being that KOM times or results in races or PB in testing, rather than on further FTP tests looking better.

Yeah, I don't pay it that much attention. I use it only to base training sessions on it and I don't do much of that. It's mostly that I noticed I couldn't maintain my FTP for an hour on a long climb when that's what it is specifically supposed to give you.
My legs and heart decide these days. 😉

We are all different and 95% of a 20 minute effort doesn’t work for all.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

I'll paraphrase the stats he came out with, but it was along the lines of a riders theoretical FTP is very rarely what they can actually achieve for an hour.

I would completely agree with this. I always find it hard to fathom when another cyclist tells me their FTP is xx watts and when I ask them how long they can actually hold that power, it is never more than 30-40mins. Therefore, it is not, by definition, their 1hr functional threshold power. I am guessing few will then actually revise the number down though!

daniel_b

doh, that was meant to be the whole point of my post and I forgot

As long as it allows you to train and progress, which it does for me on TR, then it's still a very valuable metric - good to have a number to attempt to reach over an hour out on the road as well I have to say, I will be repeating that experiment, tough, but very enjoyable.

My hour route was rolling with no big hills, but I can see how probably a nice long mountain climb where you have a steady gradient and get into a good rhythm could be prime to achieve that.
*@pblakeney I appreciate this did not work for you!

MattFalle

ugo.santalucia said:

MattFalle said:

how are you working out w/kg Ugo?

will Zwift be accurate?

am just about to head away so intrigued to see before and after figures.

Just divide your power figure by your body weight in kg…

Zwift will be accurate, so is Strava… you can take your power output curve, you could for instance use the one for the last 6 weeks or so, and find the power output at any given unit of time

grazie!

MidlandsGrimpeur2

doh, that was meant to be the whole point of my post and I forgot

As long as it allows you to train and progress, which it does for me on TR, then it's still a very valuable metric - good to have a number to attempt to reach over an hour out on the road as well I have to say, I will be repeating that experiment, tough, but very enjoyable.

You set it up, I just put it in the back of the net Dan 😀

Completely agree that having a ball park number still allows anyone to set training zones and keep track of progress. I think most people will be within the margin of error whether it is 20, 40 mins, or as close to 1hr as they can manage when trying to ascertain FTP. They certainly will not be so off track with the figure as to negatively impact their training I wouldn't have thought.

drhaggis

There's a climb near my parents' that's almost 12 km at a very sustained 5.8%. I doubt it surpasses 7% anywhere for longer than 100m, but it doesn't dip below 5% either. The perfect place to test your sustained performance. It helps that it's sheltered from the wind. Only problem is the road leads to a now decommisioned water reservoir, so it's really touch and go.

In my case, I'd be happy with some very realistic goals

• No falls
  
• Get over 6000 km done...
  
• ...including one imperial century (still haven't done one)
  
• and a few rides with over 2000m elevation when I'm in the Basque Country this summer
  

I'd also like to improve, and hit estimated >3.5 W/kg in 20m efforts. However, I've plateaued and, between kids and work, 300h/year including commutes is about as much as I can ride. So I'm not sure that's feasible. Maybe going up Arthur's seat in under 4m30s will have to do, then.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

Good goals @drhaggis. Doing a 100 miler will be a good one, there is always that slight sense of trepidation with the first one.

To be fair in all the years of cycling I have done, I have probably only completed about a dozen or so myself, whereas 100km I cover about 3 times a week!

pblakeney

I find doing 100 miles to be fairly easy.
That's because in reality I do 3x 35 miles with cafe stops. Takes a while. 😉

MidlandsGrimpeur2

Perfectly valid approach pb 😂

ugo.santalucia

I managed 4.54 W/kg for 18:30 minutes in a virtual race today… that was my absolute limit, I couldn’t even try to sprint… got the feeling I have been wheelsucked most of the race… 😂
Nonetheless, I think it’s my best number to date… upwards and onwards

MidlandsGrimpeur2

Good effort Ugo. Strangely, I have never actually done a 1hr or 20min ftp test! I take mine from MAP performed under a lab based ramp test.

I actually round ftp down as my MAP is skewed a bit higher as I am naturally better at anaerobic efforts. The standard conversion for ftp of 72-78% of MAP gives me a number I think is unrealistic so I set it at 70% of MAP.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

Watched an Alex Dowsett vlog earlier. He took an FTP test. It was his first time on a bike since he retired 3 months ago. His FTP had dropped from 420ish to 318. Over 100 watts in 3 months is massive! Made me feel better about my own fitness 😂

ugo.santalucia

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

Watched an Alex Dowsett vlog earlier. He took an FTP test. It was his first time on a bike since he retired 3 months ago. His FTP had dropped from 420ish to 318. Over 100 watts in 3 months is massive! Made me feel better about my own fitness 😂

Dubious…
I don’t think his FTP was ever 420… he famously did the hour record with a ridiculously low figure, 360 he claimed… so that must have been his best figure for the hour.
Also dubious he can only do 312, that would put him in a very average place, even looking at the amateur testing world…

DeVlaeminck

I suspect two things at play with those figures. One that he's losing watts in his hour record position. Two that he's quoting an FTP figure based off an accepted testing protocol - because that's what most of us do - and even pro cyclists typically can't sustain that figure for an hour.

dannbodge

Don't forget he's at altitude as well (one f his favourite quotes)