Cycling goals for 2023

daniel_b

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

That (300+ watts) would be my dream if you like, but I don't know if my body is capable - we will see in a year or two I guess, as long as I can stay injury free.

I think it depends on physiology Dan. The lucky few with good cycling genes can get their power high on minimal training. My mate rides a few times a month but he has an FTP of 395 watts at 85kg! He is just naturally built that way.

For the rest of us, myself included, it is hours on the bike building up endurance and then structured intervals to hone the top end.

Since I started proper structured training my FTP over the last 5 or 6 years has risen around 20% which is good but I suspect I am about at my limit.

I'm sure that must play a fairly large part, like you I know 3 or 4 locals who are naturally gifted (though I don't doubt they put the work in too) one guy is 6ft 5, lean though, and had an ftp last year of 335, another chap is about my size, maybe lighter, and is sat at 320. He also on occasion completes TTs on a legit vintage chopper.

I do envy those whose genetics give them a natural disposition towards athletic endeavour, but sounds like we fall in to the other camp, so I guess we just have to see what we can achieve.

Anyway, I digress.
i used to think I could not get beyond 230, but I wonder if its a bit like a really long over under intervals, where you need to push yourself to new ground, then back off, rest/recover, before going again and trying to push past the previous max.

I know it can't quite be as simple as that, we're all getting older, but if I can avoid injury, and retain the motivation, I'm aiming to keep trying to eek my ftp upwards as best I can for a good while yet.

ugo.santalucia

If you are serious, anyone should be able to get to an FTP of 4.5W/kg without any special talent. If you want to get to 5 and beyond, you need a bit of help from your genes (or else 😉)

MattFalle

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daniel_b said:

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

That (300+ watts) would be my dream if you like, but I don't know if my body is capable - we will see in a year or two I guess, as long as I can stay injury free.

I think it depends on physiology Dan. The lucky few with good cycling genes can get their power high on minimal training. My mate rides a few times a month but he has an FTP of 395 watts at 85kg! He is just naturally built that way.

For the rest of us, myself included, it is hours on the bike building up endurance and then structured intervals to hone the top end.

Since I started proper structured training my FTP over the last 5 or 6 years has risen around 20% which is good but I suspect I am about at my limit.

I'm sure that must play a fairly large part, like you I know 3 or 4 locals who are naturally gifted (though I don't doubt they put the work in too) one guy is 6ft 5, lean though, and had an ftp last year of 335, another chap is about my size, maybe lighter, and is sat at 320. He also on occasion completes TTs on a legit vintage chopper.

I do envy those whose genetics give them a natural disposition towards athletic endeavour, but sounds like we fall in to the other camp, so I guess we just have to see what we can achieve.

Anyway, I digress.
i used to think I could not get beyond 230, but I wonder if its a bit like a really long over under intervals, where you need to push yourself to new ground, then back off, rest/recover, before going again and trying to push past the previous max.

I know it can't quite be as simple as that, we're all getting older, but if I can avoid injury, and retain the motivation, I'm aiming to keep trying to eek my ftp upwards as best I can for a good while yet.

how tall are dude?

daniel_b

ugo.santalucia said:

If you are serious, anyone should be able to get to an FTP of 4.5W/kg without any special talent. If you want to get to 5 and beyond, you need a bit of help from your genes (or else 😉)

Definitely serious about it, and as committed as I can be with a family and a new job needing a fair amount of attention. I've done well in sticking to the plan for the last 17 months or so, looking forward to seeing how I get on this year.

4.5w/kg would effectively be an ftp of 300, which would be a dream target, so I'll just have to see if I can get there, but I won't be giving up easy.

Intrigued to see how/how long it will take me to get over this little setback in recent weeks, and whether the ftp will rise as gradually, or whether I can get back to the last figure more quickly due to having been there so recently.
That would be a bonus, but I'm not expecting that to be the case.
I'm not expecting any gains this month, and would need to average a watt per week to get to where I want to by the summer.

I'm hoping the motivation will not take a massive dip, it took a small one in autumn last year, and I also have some new toys this year and a fair bit of variety which should keep my attention firmly focussed, so I am optimistic on that count at least

MidlandsGrimpeur2

but I wonder if its a bit like a really long over under intervals, where you need to push yourself to new ground, then back off, rest/recover, before going again and trying to push past the previous max.

I suspect that is a big part of it, specific tailoring of training to overload, recover and then rebuild.

That is one thing I have never done, focus on a targeted training plan, say over 10 -12 weeks to improve FTP. All my improvements have come from general training and endurance riding.

It is something I would be interested in looking at this year, reducing volume and being a bit more exacting in my approach to targeted intervals and recovery in certain training sessions.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

If you are serious, anyone should be able to get to an FTP of 4.5W/kg without any special talent. If you want to get to 5 and beyond, you need a bit of help from your genes (or else 😉)

I would largely agree with this Ugo, although I do think even 4.5 is a seriously tough ask and not within reach for everyone. 5W/kg and above is definitely good genes and serious training territory!

wavefront

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

If you are serious, anyone should be able to get to an FTP of 4.5W/kg without any special talent. If you want to get to 5 and beyond, you need a bit of help from your genes (or else 😉)

I would largely agree with this Ugo, although I do think even 4.5 is a seriously tough ask and not within reach for everyone. 5W/kg and above is definitely good genes and serious training territory!

I also agree, but it’s not as tough as you think. I think very good discipline and structured training you will get close or above (again genetics start to come into it). I was around 4.8wkg on around 12-13 hrs a week training as I turned 40 and I think I’m a bit of a donkey. However that year I trained for a whole year to specifically race (not just take part in) the Haute Route Alpes. What an amazing event - I recall climbing alongside Emma Pooley all day then watched helplessly as she then dropped me on the last climb! My training was focussed on repeatability of riding climbs at SS or tempo, rather than purely raising ftp. I’m hugely motivated to do it again next year, for my 49th as I just love hills especially hour long alpine climbs! It helps that I’m pretty lightweight at 6ft. Hoping to get back into HC’s again after a disastrous year with my back as it’s an amazing fun scene. The one take home (that many here should perhaps include in their goals as we’re not getting younger) is to improve our general condition in middle age. I’m getting back into proper long stretch routines and yoga, and trying to add hill walking to my list. I think my lack of flexibility and bone density is on the decline and realising fast that it’s not all about being bike fit. Enjoy planning your year!

drhaggis

ugo.santalucia said:

If you are serious, anyone should be able to get to an FTP of 4.5W/kg without any special talent. If you want to get to 5 and beyond, you need a bit of help from your genes (or else 😉)

Hahaha, good one. "If you're serious" is doing quite a bit of heavy lifting in there.

Note that "the average man could hit with training 4.5 W/kg" discounts 50% of the male population and probably a larger fraction of the female one. So definitely not "anyone".

My impression as someone much slower than 4.5 W/kg is that, if you can produce that, you're easily in the top 10% of cyclists. And yes, you won't feel that fast, or special, because there is a noticeable fraction of people well beyond your reach. It's pretty much like earning £80k/year.

ugo.santalucia

drhaggis said:

ugo.santalucia said:

If you are serious, anyone should be able to get to an FTP of 4.5W/kg without any special talent. If you want to get to 5 and beyond, you need a bit of help from your genes (or else 😉)

Hahaha, good one. "If you're serious" is doing quite a bit of heavy lifting in there.

Note that "the average man could hit with training 4.5 W/kg" discounts 50% of the male population and probably a larger fraction of the female one. So definitely not "anyone".

My impression as someone much slower than 4.5 W/kg is that, if you can produce that, you're easily in the top 10% of cyclists. And yes, you won't feel that fast, or special, because there is a noticeable fraction of people well beyond your reach. It's pretty much like earning £80k/year.

But what prevents you to get to the top 10% is not physical... time, commitment and resources are more likely to be the reason. If you had more time, you could train more, if you had more commitment, you could be leaner and if you had more resources, you could pay a coach, buy training equipment, pay for training camps and trips.
Anyone can get to 4.5, but if that is the ceiling, then you have to live the life of a pro to get there, just as they do to get to 6 or whatever.
Some will find it easier, because for them it is not the ceiling.

dannbodge

daniel_b said:

That's one hell of an achievement imo to get to that level with no kind of training program, I suspect with one you would probably clear 300.
That (300+ watts) would be my dream if you like, but I don't know if my body is capable - we will see in a year or two I guess, as long as I can stay injury free.

Childwise, I have only a 9 year old in the house, so the really short of spare time days are mostly behind me, but I recall what it was like.
Totally get you on the colds and bugs as well, they are a magnet for them of course, and we are the lucky recipients.
I was doing really well however pre covid, but the time we had in lockdown seems to have set my immune system back, and frustratingly I now seem to catch anything that happens to be going

Irrespective I do most of my turbo sessions either at 6/7am, or over a long lunch when I am working from home.
My partner likes to cycle as well, so we tend to take it in turns, on a Sunday, or I'll go Saturday and she'll go Sunday - I do enjoy a ride out with friends and a coffee stop at the end.

This year I also plan to be riding into work (38 mile round trip) at least once a week, but should settle down to twice a week in time, just need to get myself back in the rhythm, the bit to get over is getting up at 04:50, so I can leave at a time that means I can leave the office at 15:30 to get home at a decent time.
I did back to back says a couple of times, and that left me quite fatigued.
The key for me is to get the bike prepped the night before, and all my kit/pannier/helmet/shoes etc laid out downstairs - I also bring the toothbrush down so as not to wake the household!

I have always struggled to put much effort in on the commute, no idea why, but now I have a power meter on the bike, I envisage I may be able to get a bit more out of myself, at least in one direction - probably inbound as the traffic will be a lot lighter.
Commutes of recent months I have just been effectively sat in Zone 2, which is no bad thing necessarily.

Weight wise I did get down into the 62s at one point, I'm pretty lean really, being able to fit into small/xs shorts in most brands, but realistically I think 65/66 should be an achievable and realistic target.

My ultimate goal is 300w FTP but without finding a lot more time to train I don't think it'll happen. Luckily I'm only 32 so have a few more good years in me yet, so once the kids get older I may be able to do something.

I normally turbo in the evening but some nights when the kids aren't going to bed it's hard to find the motivation.

That's a decent commute. Mine is anywhere from 10km to 40km depending on which way I choose to go. Normally it's 30km there and 16km home as I have more time in the morning to use up (leave at 7am - same time as mrs goes to work). Motivation isn't an issue as we only have one car. So if I am going to work, I have no other option but to ride.

62kg is crazy light. I don't think I've been that light. I never seem to lose much weight but do keep dropping sizes in everything. Used to be a 34" waist and I'm now 30" and shirt size has gone down to small

ugo.santalucia

dannbodge said:

daniel_b said:

That's one hell of an achievement imo to get to that level with no kind of training program, I suspect with one you would probably clear 300.
That (300+ watts) would be my dream if you like, but I don't know if my body is capable - we will see in a year or two I guess, as long as I can stay injury free.

Childwise, I have only a 9 year old in the house, so the really short of spare time days are mostly behind me, but I recall what it was like.
Totally get you on the colds and bugs as well, they are a magnet for them of course, and we are the lucky recipients.
I was doing really well however pre covid, but the time we had in lockdown seems to have set my immune system back, and frustratingly I now seem to catch anything that happens to be going

Irrespective I do most of my turbo sessions either at 6/7am, or over a long lunch when I am working from home.
My partner likes to cycle as well, so we tend to take it in turns, on a Sunday, or I'll go Saturday and she'll go Sunday - I do enjoy a ride out with friends and a coffee stop at the end.

This year I also plan to be riding into work (38 mile round trip) at least once a week, but should settle down to twice a week in time, just need to get myself back in the rhythm, the bit to get over is getting up at 04:50, so I can leave at a time that means I can leave the office at 15:30 to get home at a decent time.
I did back to back says a couple of times, and that left me quite fatigued.
The key for me is to get the bike prepped the night before, and all my kit/pannier/helmet/shoes etc laid out downstairs - I also bring the toothbrush down so as not to wake the household!

I have always struggled to put much effort in on the commute, no idea why, but now I have a power meter on the bike, I envisage I may be able to get a bit more out of myself, at least in one direction - probably inbound as the traffic will be a lot lighter.
Commutes of recent months I have just been effectively sat in Zone 2, which is no bad thing necessarily.

Weight wise I did get down into the 62s at one point, I'm pretty lean really, being able to fit into small/xs shorts in most brands, but realistically I think 65/66 should be an achievable and realistic target.

My ultimate goal is 300w FTP but without finding a lot more time to train I don't think it'll happen. Luckily I'm only 32 so have a few more good years in me ye

More than you think, I know guys in the Hill Climb scene who are pushing 60 and comfortably exceed that figure...
Top two in the 55-59 yo ranking are insanely fast

https://www.spindata.co.uk/rankings/hill-climbs?task=rankings.display&year=2022&age_category=Veteran-55-59

MidlandsGrimpeur2

I was around 4.8wkg on around 12-13 hrs a week training as I turned 40 and I think I’m a bit of a donkey. However that year I trained for a whole year to specifically race (not just take part in) the Haute Route Alpes.

I have thought about a HR event, still something I am interested in. Sounds like a great achievement @wavefront, although I would suggest that at 4.8 W/kg and completing a Haute Route, you were never a 'donkey' as you thought (even before serious training), you obviously had some real cycling potential and worked hard to maximise it.

DeVlaeminck

Re w/kg I didn't use power until well into my 40s and my best 20 minute test (using the BC protocol of 5 minutes hard- recover- test) was 357 watts on a gym wattbike at about 80kg - so around 4¼ w/kg. I must have been about 47 and whilst I was training it wasn't to a particular plan - just long rides, chain gangs, turbo intervals etc. At my absolute leanest I've been around 76-77kgs and while not pro cyclist levels of body fat it had the office receptionist at work ask me if I had an eating disorder !

So I reckon in my 30s 4.5 is probably kind of ball park where I was - I can believe that is typical for someone competing - the really fast lads up around 5 - obviously accepting FTP isn't everything.

Sadly currently around 85kg and FTP pushing 300 (sounds better than 295). Aim to get back to 80 and if I could reach 4w/kg I'd take it - but not sure it'll happen.

wallace_and_gromit

drhaggis said:

ugo.santalucia said:

If you are serious, anyone should be able to get to an FTP of 4.5W/kg without any special talent. If you want to get to 5 and beyond, you need a bit of help from your genes (or else 😉)

Hahaha, good one. "If you're serious" is doing quite a bit of heavy lifting in there.

Note that "the average man could hit with training 4.5 W/kg" discounts 50% of the male population and probably a larger fraction of the female one. So definitely not "anyone".

My impression as someone much slower than 4.5 W/kg is that, if you can produce that, you're easily in the top 10% of cyclists. And yes, you won't feel that fast, or special, because there is a noticeable fraction of people well beyond your reach. It's pretty much like earning £80k/year.

Based on this link, 4.5 w/kg does feel rather on the high side for those without any special talent. https://www.cyclinganalytics.com/blog/2018/06/how-does-your-cycling-power-output-compare

Based on self-reported results to CyclingAnalytics (which is probably a self-selecting above average group to start with as there's a tendency to keep quiet if you know you're a duffer!) the 50th centile for FTP is 3.6 with 4.5 around the mid 80th centile.

In terms of goals for 2023, Facebook flashed up a reminder today that it was a year ago that I entered the Marmotte. As everything went wrong for that (Covid 3 weeks beforehand, back seized up on the Telegraphe, baked alive on the Galibier and wrote bike off in a crash going up the Alpe) I'm not setting goals for this year beyond enjoying my riding!

I've entered the Sunderland triathlon instead, which involves a sea swim. If I don't drown in that then I will count it as a good season.

Nudging FTP up from 291 to 300 would be nice too, which if it's going to happen will happen in the build up to Sunderland when I'll be doing a lot of shorter, painful intervals.

dannbodge

DeVlaeminck said:

Re w/kg I didn't use power until well into my 40s and my best 20 minute test (using the BC protocol of 5 minutes hard- recover- test) was 357 watts on a gym wattbike at about 80kg - so around 4¼ w/kg. I must have been about 47 and whilst I was training it wasn't to a particular plan - just long rides, chain gangs, turbo intervals etc. At my absolute leanest I've been around 76-77kgs and while not pro cyclist levels of body fat it had the office receptionist at work ask me if I had an eating disorder !

So I reckon in my 30s 4.5 is probably kind of ball park where I was - I can believe that is typical for someone competing - the really fast lads up around 5 - obviously accepting FTP isn't everything.

Sadly currently around 85kg and FTP pushing 300 (sounds better than 295). Aim to get back to 80 and if I could reach 4w/kg I'd take it - but not sure it'll happen.

Yeah FTP is great. In reality I'm better working on my shorter power zones as all the hills bits round me are sub 10min.

A big 2-5min power would be better than a big FTP

ugo.santalucia said:

More than you think, I know guys in the Hill Climb scene who are pushing 60 and comfortably exceed that figure...
Top two in the 55-59 yo ranking are insanely fast

https://www.spindata.co.uk/rankings/hill-climbs?task=rankings.display&year=2022&age_category=Veteran-55-59

And that's what I keep trying to tell myself when.
One of my good friends at work is in his 50s and still happily drops people, even with minimal riding and no real training

ugo.santalucia

wallace_and_gromit said:

drhaggis said:

ugo.santalucia said:

If you are serious, anyone should be able to get to an FTP of 4.5W/kg without any special talent. If you want to get to 5 and beyond, you need a bit of help from your genes (or else 😉)

Hahaha, good one. "If you're serious" is doing quite a bit of heavy lifting in there.

Note that "the average man could hit with training 4.5 W/kg" discounts 50% of the male population and probably a larger fraction of the female one. So definitely not "anyone".

My impression as someone much slower than 4.5 W/kg is that, if you can produce that, you're easily in the top 10% of cyclists. And yes, you won't feel that fast, or special, because there is a noticeable fraction of people well beyond your reach. It's pretty much like earning £80k/year.

Based on this link, 4.5 w/kg does feel rather on the high side for those without any special talent. https://www.cyclinganalytics.com/blog/2018/06/how-does-your-cycling-power-output-compare

Based on self-reported results to CyclingAnalytics (which is probably a self-selecting above average group to start with as there's a tendency to keep quiet if you know you're a duffer!) the 50th centile for FTP is 3.6 with 4.5 around the mid 80th centile.

.

Let's look at where the ceiling is.
My FTP is currently around 4.2 I train, but it's all unstructured, I don't have a coach, I could eat better, I could give up the 5 to 10 units of alcohol I consume a week... there is a lot of room for improvement. 4.5 is definitively something I could achieve and I am confident if I had money to throw at the issue (coach, personal trainer, sport nutritionist, maybe a couple of training camps per year in exotic locations), I could probably go higher than that.

Background: currently 50, so well past my prime. As a kid I was rather slow at running and had zero talent for any sport, or at least I have never shown any. Poor coordination, means I wasn't good at football, never learned to ski despite coming from the Alps... I learnt to cycle very early, courtesy of my parents, I give you that. Lung capacity is bang on normal, BMI within the normal range, nothing that sets me apart from Joe Average. On top of that, I was a smoker from the age of 16 to the age of 32, which certainly didn't help.

If I can get to 4.5, then pretty much anyone can... obviously there will be exceptions... I suspect if you are born the size of George Foreman, you'll probably find it hard to hit any XXX to weight figure, but you are also probably unlikely to choose road cycling as a sport.

daniel_b

dannbodge said:

daniel_b said:

That's one hell of an achievement imo to get to that level with no kind of training program, I suspect with one you would probably clear 300.
That (300+ watts) would be my dream if you like, but I don't know if my body is capable - we will see in a year or two I guess, as long as I can stay injury free.

Childwise, I have only a 9 year old in the house, so the really short of spare time days are mostly behind me, but I recall what it was like.
Totally get you on the colds and bugs as well, they are a magnet for them of course, and we are the lucky recipients.
I was doing really well however pre covid, but the time we had in lockdown seems to have set my immune system back, and frustratingly I now seem to catch anything that happens to be going

Irrespective I do most of my turbo sessions either at 6/7am, or over a long lunch when I am working from home.
My partner likes to cycle as well, so we tend to take it in turns, on a Sunday, or I'll go Saturday and she'll go Sunday - I do enjoy a ride out with friends and a coffee stop at the end.

This year I also plan to be riding into work (38 mile round trip) at least once a week, but should settle down to twice a week in time, just need to get myself back in the rhythm, the bit to get over is getting up at 04:50, so I can leave at a time that means I can leave the office at 15:30 to get home at a decent time.
I did back to back says a couple of times, and that left me quite fatigued.
The key for me is to get the bike prepped the night before, and all my kit/pannier/helmet/shoes etc laid out downstairs - I also bring the toothbrush down so as not to wake the household!

I have always struggled to put much effort in on the commute, no idea why, but now I have a power meter on the bike, I envisage I may be able to get a bit more out of myself, at least in one direction - probably inbound as the traffic will be a lot lighter.
Commutes of recent months I have just been effectively sat in Zone 2, which is no bad thing necessarily.

Weight wise I did get down into the 62s at one point, I'm pretty lean really, being able to fit into small/xs shorts in most brands, but realistically I think 65/66 should be an achievable and realistic target.

My ultimate goal is 300w FTP but without finding a lot more time to train I don't think it'll happen. Luckily I'm only 32 so have a few more good years in me yet, so once the kids get older I may be able to do something.

I normally turbo in the evening but some nights when the kids aren't going to bed it's hard to find the motivation.

That's a decent commute. Mine is anywhere from 10km to 40km depending on which way I choose to go. Normally it's 30km there and 16km home as I have more time in the morning to use up (leave at 7am - same time as mrs goes to work). Motivation isn't an issue as we only have one car. So if I am going to work, I have no other option but to ride.

62kg is crazy light. I don't think I've been that light. I never seem to lose much weight but do keep dropping sizes in everything. Used to be a 34" waist and I'm now 30" and shirt size has gone down to small

At that age, I'd say you have oodles of time ahead of you, plus the fact you'll have more time in a few more years, and if you want to follow a structured program I'm sure you will be able - partly depending on your work location etc
If you are in the region of 275 now with not much in the way of structured training, I'd be very confident that you can achieve 300+ watts.

In my experience, if I am really time crunched, ~3.5 hours a week to train, then turbo workouts are very much the way to go.
If you can supplement that with out door rides on top, then all well and good.

I used to turbo in the evening, whilst the littleun as she was then, was asleep, and I'd have the baby monitor in the garage, but although it worked in the respect that I could get a good workout in, it also resulted in my not sleeping too well, all those endorphins rushing round, and then a refreshing shower to wake me up even more, so I had to knock that on the head.

I only have access to the van once a week in general, so in the winter months I tend to ride in one day, drive another, and wfh the rest - that means I have more time to turbo.
I'm fine once I commit to riding in, but I struggle to put any real effort in, where as I see some people absolute hoon it on the commute in one direction at least, so I'll see if I can work on that this year, and perhaps use one of them as a turbo trainer workout replacement as opposed to a Zone 2 ride, that would be helpful.

62 was very light, I felt really good though especially uphill, but I'd rather be a bit heavier and have more out and out power, for speed on the flats amongst other things.

wavefront

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

I was around 4.8wkg on around 12-13 hrs a week training as I turned 40 and I think I’m a bit of a donkey. However that year I trained for a whole year to specifically race (not just take part in) the Haute Route Alpes.

I have thought about a HR event, still something I am interested in. Sounds like a great achievement @wavefront, although I would suggest that at 4.8 W/kg and completing a Haute Route, you were never a 'donkey' as you thought (even before serious training), you obviously had some real cycling potential and worked hard to maximise it.

Thank you for your kind words! All aspects of life went on hold when I trained so I went all in and loved it. Pricey, but I have clear beautiful memories even 9 years later. Riding up the Bonette alongside a motorbike Marshall who was chatting away to me while I was tapping away, wanting to throw my bike off a cliff edge on the 5th day as I was soooo tired, yelling at Italians who didn’t know how to hold their line, getting my descending apex perfect on the Galibier descent, and hammering it on the valley flats in a pace line when the flag dropped.

If you ever want a goal, it’s a hell of a lifetime experience. Anyone can do it…..I just chose do it competitively. There is a well known chap with one arm and one leg who does it. Really, nothing else comes close. Do it!!!!

daniel_b

Regarding 4.5W/kg being an achievable target for most people, I think it's already been mentioned, but I suspect time is the biggest factor.

If we all had 20 hours a week to ride, I'm sure we could all be more powerful cyclists.

If you look at the Coggan power chart, he has 4.5 as a mid level Cat 2.
Cat 1 is 4.6 - 5.3.
Above that is exceptional (Domestic pro) up to 5.8, and beyond that you have the international professionals.

DeVlaeminck

Re coaching - I've never had a coach but I've seen some get definite benefits. One guy in our club went from struggling to finish local midweek road races in the bunch to a sub 20 minute TT. That one did make me think hang on 2 years ago you couldn't hold my wheel and now you are averaging 30mph + , but I guess I could just never really be a rsed to take it that seriously.

I wanted to be fit enough to hang in with the local fast training rides and if I could be one of that group it was enough. Maybe coming to the sport late and never seeing myself as sporty (was in no school teams etc) defined my ambitions. Then again riding with an ex olympic TTer (Seoul) on local chain gangs and seeing what proper talent was close up maybe I was just realistic - as Ugo says why live like a pro if you are never going to get the rewards.

ugo.santalucia

DeVlaeminck said:

Re coaching - I've never had a coach but I've seen some get definite benefits. One guy in our club went from struggling to finish local midweek road races in the bunch to a sub 20 minute TT. That one did make me think hang on 2 years ago you couldn't hold my wheel and now you are averaging 30mph + , but I guess I could just never really be a rsed to take it that seriously.

Is that on a road bike?
If not, you have to be careful, aerodynamic improvements trump power improvements big time.
I know people who can "beat the hour" with a mere 200W... I'd need 260-270 W at least... which in theory I should be very capable of doing, it's below my FTP, but in practice I've never managed on a 25.
I think this was my best power in a 10 TT, sporting course, so the time sucks, but on the day it was probably the second fastest on a road bike

https://www.strava.com/activities/6811440125

ugo.santalucia

daniel_b said:

Regarding 4.5W/kg being an achievable target for most people, I think it's already been mentioned, but I suspect time is the biggest factor.
.

I would argue that commitment is the biggest issue, rather than time. You can build up to your ceiling on less that 10 hours a week, by what I see on Strava for some competitors in the Hill Climb scene, just a case of using time well.
What you do off the bike is the hardest bit to get right... avoiding booze, avoiding takeaways and cake, late nights, unnecessary stress, etc...

Resources are also a big issue... imagine what you could achieve with unlimited resources: a dedicated top notch cycling coach, a nutritionist telling you exactly what you should eat, or even better cooking it for you, access to lab testing on a regular basis, access to a top notch personal trainer to look after your core strength. It would really elevate what you do from guesswork to "science".

Dorset_Boy

Are those genuine 4.5 wkgs though? By that I mean could they really sustain 4.5 wkg for an hour? Or have they trained for 5-20 minute efforts, so put out over 4.75 wkg for 20 minutes, but then would stuggle for the remaining 40 minutes?

Time is a massive factor, particularly for those with young kids. I think most could get to around 3.8-4.0 wkg, but 4.5 is another big step for most people.

Just riding is the first step to improvement for many, but pushing themselves when they do, not soft pedalling a couple of times a week. Once at the 7+ hours a week mark then more specific training is needed, though that doesn't have to be a structured plan, ot could be doing a couple of Zwift races a week in the winter mixed with group rides and some outdoors.

I'm about to enter the last quarter of my 50s, and have got quicker over the last couple of years. I do no workouts, but ride 10-13 hours a week. 69-70 kgs and indoor FTP of 4.2/4.3 wkg. (That effort hurts mind!)

ugo.santalucia

Dorset_Boy said:

Are those genuine 4.5 wkgs though? By that I mean could they really sustain 4.5 wkg for an hour? Or have they trained for 5-20 minute efforts, so put out over 4.75 wkg for 20 minutes, but then would stuggle for the remaining 40 minutes?

Time is a massive factor, particularly for those with young kids. I think most could get to around 3.8-4.0 wkg, but 4.5 is another big step for most people.

Just riding is the first step to improvement for many, but pushing themselves when they do, not soft pedalling a couple of times a week. Once at the 7+ hours a week mark then more specific training is needed, though that doesn't have to be a structured plan, ot could be doing a couple of Zwift races a week in the winter mixed with group rides and some outdoors.

I'm about to enter the last quarter of my 50s, and have got quicker over the last couple of years. I do no workouts, but ride 10-13 hours a week. 69-70 kgs and indoor FTP of 4.3/4.4 wkg. (That effort hurts mind!)

I suspect we are talking about FTP as extracted from a 20 minute test... getting that number out in an hour will require the right conditions and it might not even be doable... it's just there to guide the correct effort in training...

wallace_and_gromit

ugo.santalucia said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

drhaggis said:

ugo.santalucia said:

If you are serious, anyone should be able to get to an FTP of 4.5W/kg without any special talent. If you want to get to 5 and beyond, you need a bit of help from your genes (or else 😉)

Hahaha, good one. "If you're serious" is doing quite a bit of heavy lifting in there.

Note that "the average man could hit with training 4.5 W/kg" discounts 50% of the male population and probably a larger fraction of the female one. So definitely not "anyone".

My impression as someone much slower than 4.5 W/kg is that, if you can produce that, you're easily in the top 10% of cyclists. And yes, you won't feel that fast, or special, because there is a noticeable fraction of people well beyond your reach. It's pretty much like earning £80k/year.

Based on this link, 4.5 w/kg does feel rather on the high side for those without any special talent. https://www.cyclinganalytics.com/blog/2018/06/how-does-your-cycling-power-output-compare

Based on self-reported results to CyclingAnalytics (which is probably a self-selecting above average group to start with as there's a tendency to keep quiet if you know you're a duffer!) the 50th centile for FTP is 3.6 with 4.5 around the mid 80th centile.

.

Let's look at where the ceiling is.
My FTP is currently around 4.2 I train, but it's all unstructured, I don't have a coach, I could eat better, I could give up the 5 to 10 units of alcohol I consume a week... there is a lot of room for improvement. 4.5 is definitively something I could achieve and I am confident if I had money to throw at the issue (coach, personal trainer, sport nutritionist, maybe a couple of training camps per year in exotic locations), I could probably go higher than that.

Background: currently 50, so well past my prime. As a kid I was rather slow at running and had zero talent for any sport, or at least I have never shown any. Poor coordination, means I wasn't good at football, never learned to ski despite coming from the Alps... I learnt to cycle very early, courtesy of my parents, I give you that. Lung capacity is bang on normal, BMI within the normal range, nothing that sets me apart from Joe Average. On top of that, I was a smoker from the age of 16 to the age of 32, which certainly didn't help.

If I can get to 4.5, then pretty much anyone can... obviously there will be exceptions... I suspect if you are born the size of George Foreman, you'll probably find it hard to hit any XXX to weight figure, but you are also probably unlikely to choose road cycling as a sport.

FWIW, I think you're scarred by being cr*p at running and football and have conditioned yourself to believe you have less talent than you actually have. I'm a bit the same tbh, albeit at 15% lower w/kg than you. I only discovered any obvious talent for endurance events when I found the rowing machine. For whatever reason - I think it just suits my muscle type and limb lengths etc - for the first time, I was relatively good at a sport. But in my mind, I'm still "cr*p" despite regularly finishing in the top quartile of decent standard triathlons in my age group.

dannbodge

Fwiw my FTP is my one hour effort.

Somehow my 95% of 20min, ramp test and 1 hour all are within a few watts of each other (like 2 or 3). All indoors on a Tacx Neo

ugo.santalucia

wallace_and_gromit said:

ugo.santalucia said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

drhaggis said:

ugo.santalucia said:

If you are serious, anyone should be able to get to an FTP of 4.5W/kg without any special talent. If you want to get to 5 and beyond, you need a bit of help from your genes (or else 😉)

Hahaha, good one. "If you're serious" is doing quite a bit of heavy lifting in there.

Note that "the average man could hit with training 4.5 W/kg" discounts 50% of the male population and probably a larger fraction of the female one. So definitely not "anyone".

My impression as someone much slower than 4.5 W/kg is that, if you can produce that, you're easily in the top 10% of cyclists. And yes, you won't feel that fast, or special, because there is a noticeable fraction of people well beyond your reach. It's pretty much like earning £80k/year.

Based on this link, 4.5 w/kg does feel rather on the high side for those without any special talent. https://www.cyclinganalytics.com/blog/2018/06/how-does-your-cycling-power-output-compare

Based on self-reported results to CyclingAnalytics (which is probably a self-selecting above average group to start with as there's a tendency to keep quiet if you know you're a duffer!) the 50th centile for FTP is 3.6 with 4.5 around the mid 80th centile.

.

Let's look at where the ceiling is.
My FTP is currently around 4.2 I train, but it's all unstructured, I don't have a coach, I could eat better, I could give up the 5 to 10 units of alcohol I consume a week... there is a lot of room for improvement. 4.5 is definitively something I could achieve and I am confident if I had money to throw at the issue (coach, personal trainer, sport nutritionist, maybe a couple of training camps per year in exotic locations), I could probably go higher than that.

Background: currently 50, so well past my prime. As a kid I was rather slow at running and had zero talent for any sport, or at least I have never shown any. Poor coordination, means I wasn't good at football, never learned to ski despite coming from the Alps... I learnt to cycle very early, courtesy of my parents, I give you that. Lung capacity is bang on normal, BMI within the normal range, nothing that sets me apart from Joe Average. On top of that, I was a smoker from the age of 16 to the age of 32, which certainly didn't help.

If I can get to 4.5, then pretty much anyone can... obviously there will be exceptions... I suspect if you are born the size of George Foreman, you'll probably find it hard to hit any XXX to weight figure, but you are also probably unlikely to choose road cycling as a sport.

FWIW, I think you're scarred by being cr*p at running and football and have conditioned yourself to believe you have less talent than you actually have. I'm a bit the same tbh, albeit at 15% lower w/kg than you. I only discovered any obvious talent for endurance events when I found the rowing machine. For whatever reason - I think it just suits my muscle type and limb lengths etc - for the first time, I was relatively good at a sport. But in my mind, I'm still "cr*p" despite regularly finishing in the top quartile of decent standard triathlons in my age group.

I should add that my times on the Concept 2 rower, when I had a brief fling for rowing in 2005, were the worst in the group, which did include some rather unfit looking blokes...

DeVlaeminck

Ok

ugo.santalucia said:

DeVlaeminck said:

Re coaching - I've never had a coach but I've seen some get definite benefits. One guy in our club went from struggling to finish local midweek road races in the bunch to a sub 20 minute TT. That one did make me think hang on 2 years ago you couldn't hold my wheel and now you are averaging 30mph + , but I guess I could just never really be a rsed to take it that seriously.

Is that on a road bike?
If not, you have to be careful, aerodynamic improvements trump power improvements big time.
I know people who can "beat the hour" with a mere 200W... I'd need 260-270 W at least... which in theory I should be very capable of doing, it's below my FTP, but in practice I've never managed on a 25.
I think this was my best power in a 10 TT, sporting course, so the time sucks, but on the day it was probably the second fastest on a road bike

https://www.strava.com/activities/6811440125

No he had a nice TT bike but a sub 20 is still decent isn't it ? I know it's not what it was at one time but this guy was struggling to finish a fairly flat 3/4 in the bunch previously.

wallace_and_gromit

ugo.santalucia said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

ugo.santalucia said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

drhaggis said:

ugo.santalucia said:

If you are serious, anyone should be able to get to an FTP of 4.5W/kg without any special talent. If you want to get to 5 and beyond, you need a bit of help from your genes (or else 😉)

Hahaha, good one. "If you're serious" is doing quite a bit of heavy lifting in there.

Note that "the average man could hit with training 4.5 W/kg" discounts 50% of the male population and probably a larger fraction of the female one. So definitely not "anyone".

My impression as someone much slower than 4.5 W/kg is that, if you can produce that, you're easily in the top 10% of cyclists. And yes, you won't feel that fast, or special, because there is a noticeable fraction of people well beyond your reach. It's pretty much like earning £80k/year.

Based on this link, 4.5 w/kg does feel rather on the high side for those without any special talent. https://www.cyclinganalytics.com/blog/2018/06/how-does-your-cycling-power-output-compare

Based on self-reported results to CyclingAnalytics (which is probably a self-selecting above average group to start with as there's a tendency to keep quiet if you know you're a duffer!) the 50th centile for FTP is 3.6 with 4.5 around the mid 80th centile.

.

Let's look at where the ceiling is.
My FTP is currently around 4.2 I train, but it's all unstructured, I don't have a coach, I could eat better, I could give up the 5 to 10 units of alcohol I consume a week... there is a lot of room for improvement. 4.5 is definitively something I could achieve and I am confident if I had money to throw at the issue (coach, personal trainer, sport nutritionist, maybe a couple of training camps per year in exotic locations), I could probably go higher than that.

Background: currently 50, so well past my prime. As a kid I was rather slow at running and had zero talent for any sport, or at least I have never shown any. Poor coordination, means I wasn't good at football, never learned to ski despite coming from the Alps... I learnt to cycle very early, courtesy of my parents, I give you that. Lung capacity is bang on normal, BMI within the normal range, nothing that sets me apart from Joe Average. On top of that, I was a smoker from the age of 16 to the age of 32, which certainly didn't help.

If I can get to 4.5, then pretty much anyone can... obviously there will be exceptions... I suspect if you are born the size of George Foreman, you'll probably find it hard to hit any XXX to weight figure, but you are also probably unlikely to choose road cycling as a sport.

FWIW, I think you're scarred by being cr*p at running and football and have conditioned yourself to believe you have less talent than you actually have. I'm a bit the same tbh, albeit at 15% lower w/kg than you. I only discovered any obvious talent for endurance events when I found the rowing machine. For whatever reason - I think it just suits my muscle type and limb lengths etc - for the first time, I was relatively good at a sport. But in my mind, I'm still "cr*p" despite regularly finishing in the top quartile of decent standard triathlons in my age group.

I should add that my times on the Concept 2 rower, when I had a brief fling for rowing in 2005, were the worst in the group, which did include some rather unfit looking blokes...

The Rowing Gods are very fickle with their favours!

ugo.santalucia

DeVlaeminck said:

Ok

ugo.santalucia said:

DeVlaeminck said:

Re coaching - I've never had a coach but I've seen some get definite benefits. One guy in our club went from struggling to finish local midweek road races in the bunch to a sub 20 minute TT. That one did make me think hang on 2 years ago you couldn't hold my wheel and now you are averaging 30mph + , but I guess I could just never really be a rsed to take it that seriously.

Is that on a road bike?
If not, you have to be careful, aerodynamic improvements trump power improvements big time.
I know people who can "beat the hour" with a mere 200W... I'd need 260-270 W at least... which in theory I should be very capable of doing, it's below my FTP, but in practice I've never managed on a 25.
I think this was my best power in a 10 TT, sporting course, so the time sucks, but on the day it was probably the second fastest on a road bike

https://www.strava.com/activities/6811440125

No he had a nice TT bike but a sub 20 is still decent isn't it ? I know it's not what it was at one time but this guy was struggling to finish a fairly flat 3/4 in the bunch previously.

Yes, a long 19 is still a very good time... if the guy takes full advantage of his equipment, it's more or less equivalent to a short 21 for someone who is on a road bike with a decent TT position.