The Big 'Let's sell our cars and take buses/ebikes instead' thread (warning: probably very dull)
Comments
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I drove into Birmingham last night and Google maps definitely told me about the ULEZ zone.2020/2021/2022 Metric Century Challenge Winner0
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I went to Birmingham just after theirs started. I somehow knew there was one and to check in advance if I need to pay (which I did). I then went on the site before travelling to pay and also reminded the people I was meeting to make sure they didn’t get caught out. Ironically I must have messed up the payment as I subsequently received a fine and couldn’t find any confirmation of payment0
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I don't have to enjoy driving myself to understand what you enjoy about it. That's fine. But we're talking about national and regional transport policies, not what some people like to do for fun of a weekend.Stevo_666 said:
It's no more antiquated than using batteries, which were originally invented in 1800.rjsterry said:
Hence the joke. These are almost exactly the arguments that steam enthusiasts use about diesel and electric locomotives.Stevo_666 said:
They make no proper noise and have no soul. And they are very heavy so their handling, braking and dynamics are inferior.ugo.santalucia said:
EVs have in principle better performance than thermic engines. The acceleration is superior and the torque is immense.Stevo_666 said:I'm not sure that EV enthusiasts exist as there's not much to get enthused about, but I guess the equivalent would be
I guess with some decent software you can waste some battery to replicate your favourite engine tune and vibrations...
FWIW, I will concede that a really big diesel sounds quite impressive 😀.
My car puts a smile on my face every time I drive it. And that's what counts, beyond the mundane point getting getting me from a to b. I honestly think you would never understand.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2023/03/01/firms-search-for-greener-supplies-of-graphite-for-ev-batteries
On batteries, in this week's economist, one of the problems I've been referencing (that has thus far been ignored on the thread).
Carmakers already fret about spiralling prices and limited supplies of lithium, the crucial ingredient of the lithium-ion batteries at the heart of this revolution. They also worry about cobalt and other ingredients used to make cathodes, the positive electrodes inside those batteries (though recent discoveries of new reserves have dampened those concerns as they relate to cobalt in particular). It does, though, take two to tango. For every cathode, a battery needs an anode, a negative electrode. Anodes are made from graphite, and a supply-shock for that material is brewing.At the moment, supply is growing at only about two-thirds that rate. So there may not be enough graphite to go round, especially as this material has other big users, such as the steel industry.So far, graphite remains the best material available for anodes. But purifying it is a messy business. Conventionally, highly corrosive chemicals, such as hydrofluoric acid, are used to dissolve impurities. Most of this processing is done in China. Carmakers have been nervous enough about that country’s grip on some 60% of the world’s lithium. But, when it comes to graphite, China commands more than 90% of the supply chain
Rest of the article is more positive, looking at what the western firms are doing about it.Alternatives to graphite will, no doubt, continue to progress. But with such huge investment going into gigafactories—almost $300bn over the past four years, according to Benchmark, and most of that based on a familiarity with the existing material—graphite looks like holding its own for some time to come. With new, low-impact mines and cleaner processes, the dark side of the electric car should soon become a bit greener0 -
Any policy aimed at reducing pollution, traffic and reliance on cars has to be underpinned by a commitment to make driving more miserable. It is already for the most quite miserable… it needs to be more miserable to be effective.rjsterry said:
I don't have to enjoy driving myself to understand what you enjoy about it. That's fine. But we're talking about national and regional transport policies, not what some people like to do for fun of a weekend.Stevo_666 said:
It's no more antiquated than using batteries, which were originally invented in 1800.rjsterry said:
Hence the joke. These are almost exactly the arguments that steam enthusiasts use about diesel and electric locomotives.Stevo_666 said:
They make no proper noise and have no soul. And they are very heavy so their handling, braking and dynamics are inferior.ugo.santalucia said:
EVs have in principle better performance than thermic engines. The acceleration is superior and the torque is immense.Stevo_666 said:I'm not sure that EV enthusiasts exist as there's not much to get enthused about, but I guess the equivalent would be
I guess with some decent software you can waste some battery to replicate your favourite engine tune and vibrations...
FWIW, I will concede that a really big diesel sounds quite impressive 😀.
My car puts a smile on my face every time I drive it. And that's what counts, beyond the mundane point getting getting me from a to b. I honestly think you would never understand.
I also suggest there should be a maximum size for passenger vehicles… they are getting ridiculously large for our road network. If you replaced every Range Rover with a Panda, we would have a smaller problem to deal with
left the forum March 20230 -
^^I've literally never seen you mention graphite in particular but I think pretty much everyone on here is aware of the concerns regarding the component materials of battery making and it has been mentioned many times in terms of the size of reserves, the destruction of (generally developing) countries' environments to mine the materials, the environmental impact of manufacturing and the control of supply. With graphite in particular, from that quote, it looks like the main issue is processing the raw material which I would say is a lesser problem than where the raw materials can be obtained (although China also accounts for around 65% of mined graphite).0
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https://forum.bikeradar.com/discussion/comment/20961103/#Comment_20961103Pross said:^^I've literally never seen you mention graphite in particular but I think pretty much everyone on here is aware of the concerns regarding the component materials of battery making and it has been mentioned many times in terms of the size of reserves, the destruction of (generally developing) countries' environments to mine the materials, the environmental impact of manufacturing and the control of supply. With graphite in particular, from that quote, it looks like the main issue is processing the raw material which I would say is a lesser problem than where the raw materials can be obtained (although China also accounts for around 65% of mined graphite).
Because I think the batteries require in cars are several orders of magnitude bigger than in other electronic devices, and the forecasts confirm that for expected demand from cars there is not enough refinable materials, nor can the west scale up their own refining capabilities fast enough to keep up with the speed of demand they themselves are regulating, so they will a) be relying on China to supply them and b) there isn’t enough materials known about in the ground for all of them.
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Sounds like you value it enough to pay quite a bit extra for.Stevo_666 said:
It's no more antiquated than using batteries, which were originally invented in 1800.rjsterry said:
Hence the joke. These are almost exactly the arguments that steam enthusiasts use about diesel and electric locomotives.Stevo_666 said:
They make no proper noise and have no soul. And they are very heavy so their handling, braking and dynamics are inferior.ugo.santalucia said:
EVs have in principle better performance than thermic engines. The acceleration is superior and the torque is immense.Stevo_666 said:I'm not sure that EV enthusiasts exist as there's not much to get enthused about, but I guess the equivalent would be
I guess with some decent software you can waste some battery to replicate your favourite engine tune and vibrations...
FWIW, I will concede that a really big diesel sounds quite impressive 😀.
My car puts a smile on my face every time I drive it. And that's what counts, beyond the mundane point getting getting me from a to b. I honestly think you would never understand.0 -
https://ukdaily.news/bristol/changes-in-wiltshire-councils-recycling-collection-34971.htmlmully79 said:If I have to pay a charge to go into a city then I simply won't go at all. (Especially if I have to create yet another account online) The faff and confusion is the biggest problem.
I'm flying from Bristol airport in July but some road routes go through the CAZ and some don't. For people with non compliant cars it's utter bs.
Use Waze, and apparently it will guide you around it if you need to.
Also, it looks like if you go anywhere near the centre, you'll be in the zone.0 -
So no specific mention of graphite being an issue as I said? I'm pretty sure plenty of others have made the general point about availability of the component parts for batteries though.rick_chasey said:
https://forum.bikeradar.com/discussion/comment/20961103/#Comment_20961103Pross said:^^I've literally never seen you mention graphite in particular but I think pretty much everyone on here is aware of the concerns regarding the component materials of battery making and it has been mentioned many times in terms of the size of reserves, the destruction of (generally developing) countries' environments to mine the materials, the environmental impact of manufacturing and the control of supply. With graphite in particular, from that quote, it looks like the main issue is processing the raw material which I would say is a lesser problem than where the raw materials can be obtained (although China also accounts for around 65% of mined graphite).
Because I think the batteries require in cars are several orders of magnitude bigger than in other electronic devices, and the forecasts confirm that for expected demand from cars there is not enough refinable materials, nor can the west scale up their own refining capabilities fast enough to keep up with the speed of demand they themselves are regulating, so they will a) be relying on China to supply them and b) there isn’t enough materials known about in the ground for all of them.0 -
It's the random short section of the A4 Portway that creates a bit of an issue I think plus there's a tiny section of link from the A369 to the A370. I can see why people have suggested it's a bit of a trap. However, it has been designed to allow drivers to turn off up Bridge Valley Road so it is completely avoidable. Seems a bit silly as that will then put more traffic across the Clifton suspension bridge. Coming from the west I would just do the A369 instead but putting more traffic onto that road seems a bit silly for the sake of including that small area around Cumberland Basin in the zone. From the east I would just use the ring road which is what it is intended for.kingstongraham said:
https://ukdaily.news/bristol/changes-in-wiltshire-councils-recycling-collection-34971.htmlmully79 said:If I have to pay a charge to go into a city then I simply won't go at all. (Especially if I have to create yet another account online) The faff and confusion is the biggest problem.
I'm flying from Bristol airport in July but some road routes go through the CAZ and some don't. For people with non compliant cars it's utter bs.
Use Waze, and apparently it will guide you around it if you need to.
Also, it looks like if you go anywhere near the centre, you'll be in the zone.0 -
I already do, ta.kingstongraham said:
Sounds like you value it enough to pay quite a bit extra for.Stevo_666 said:
It's no more antiquated than using batteries, which were originally invented in 1800.rjsterry said:
Hence the joke. These are almost exactly the arguments that steam enthusiasts use about diesel and electric locomotives.Stevo_666 said:
They make no proper noise and have no soul. And they are very heavy so their handling, braking and dynamics are inferior.ugo.santalucia said:
EVs have in principle better performance than thermic engines. The acceleration is superior and the torque is immense.Stevo_666 said:I'm not sure that EV enthusiasts exist as there's not much to get enthused about, but I guess the equivalent would be
I guess with some decent software you can waste some battery to replicate your favourite engine tune and vibrations...
FWIW, I will concede that a really big diesel sounds quite impressive 😀.
My car puts a smile on my face every time I drive it. And that's what counts, beyond the mundane point getting getting me from a to b. I honestly think you would never understand."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
I think the all driving for fun thing is harmful on many levels, from pollution, to increase of traffic, road accidents etc, and should be treated in the same way as tobacco was treated… ultimately, tobacco use has been almost eradicated and the same should happen for the leisure driving industry.left the forum March 20230
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Another balanced and well thought out public policy there Ugo.
Right up there with making it illegal to place monetary value on an animal.0 -
I think they are both very good policies… this is obviously way more important.First.Aspect said:Another balanced and well thought out public policy there Ugo.
Right up there with making it illegal to place monetary value on an animal.
I understand the desire for freedom and speed, but it does not have to come at others’expense… one could take up downhill MTB, or skateboarding, or sailing, or could get a really good gaming console if they are really against any physical activity. Travel through France by TGV if you fancy seeing the countryside at 200 mph… plenty of better alternatives to clogging the roads for a fun drive. Racing in a circuit could be tolerable, if the car is electric or use biofuel…
so there
left the forum March 20230 -
Stretching a point a bit too far.ugo.santalucia said:I think the all driving for fun thing is harmful on many levels, from pollution, to increase of traffic, road accidents etc, and should be treated in the same way as tobacco was treated… ultimately, tobacco use has been almost eradicated and the same should happen for the leisure driving industry.
Reduced yes, eradicated; not by a long chalk.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Great, so now it's just a question of what value you place on your chosen leisure pursuit.Stevo_666 said:
I already do, ta.kingstongraham said:
Sounds like you value it enough to pay quite a bit extra for.Stevo_666 said:
It's no more antiquated than using batteries, which were originally invented in 1800.rjsterry said:
Hence the joke. These are almost exactly the arguments that steam enthusiasts use about diesel and electric locomotives.Stevo_666 said:
They make no proper noise and have no soul. And they are very heavy so their handling, braking and dynamics are inferior.ugo.santalucia said:
EVs have in principle better performance than thermic engines. The acceleration is superior and the torque is immense.Stevo_666 said:I'm not sure that EV enthusiasts exist as there's not much to get enthused about, but I guess the equivalent would be
I guess with some decent software you can waste some battery to replicate your favourite engine tune and vibrations...
FWIW, I will concede that a really big diesel sounds quite impressive 😀.
My car puts a smile on my face every time I drive it. And that's what counts, beyond the mundane point getting getting me from a to b. I honestly think you would never understand.0 -
Luckily you don't get to decidekingstongraham said:
Great, so now it's just a question of what value you place on your chosen leisure pursuit.Stevo_666 said:
I already do, ta.kingstongraham said:
Sounds like you value it enough to pay quite a bit extra for.Stevo_666 said:
It's no more antiquated than using batteries, which were originally invented in 1800.rjsterry said:
Hence the joke. These are almost exactly the arguments that steam enthusiasts use about diesel and electric locomotives.Stevo_666 said:
They make no proper noise and have no soul. And they are very heavy so their handling, braking and dynamics are inferior.ugo.santalucia said:
EVs have in principle better performance than thermic engines. The acceleration is superior and the torque is immense.Stevo_666 said:I'm not sure that EV enthusiasts exist as there's not much to get enthused about, but I guess the equivalent would be
I guess with some decent software you can waste some battery to replicate your favourite engine tune and vibrations...
FWIW, I will concede that a really big diesel sounds quite impressive 😀.
My car puts a smile on my face every time I drive it. And that's what counts, beyond the mundane point getting getting me from a to b. I honestly think you would never understand. I already pay enough.
As has been mentioned above, there needs to be more carrot and less stick if they want more cooperation from the majority of the public."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
No, there needs to be more incentive rather than pain, otherwise people will resist. Politicians are aware that motorists have votes, fortunately.ugo.santalucia said:
Any policy aimed at reducing pollution, traffic and reliance on cars has to be underpinned by a commitment to make driving more miserable. It is already for the most quite miserable… it needs to be more miserable to be effective.rjsterry said:
I don't have to enjoy driving myself to understand what you enjoy about it. That's fine. But we're talking about national and regional transport policies, not what some people like to do for fun of a weekend.Stevo_666 said:
It's no more antiquated than using batteries, which were originally invented in 1800.rjsterry said:
Hence the joke. These are almost exactly the arguments that steam enthusiasts use about diesel and electric locomotives.Stevo_666 said:
They make no proper noise and have no soul. And they are very heavy so their handling, braking and dynamics are inferior.ugo.santalucia said:
EVs have in principle better performance than thermic engines. The acceleration is superior and the torque is immense.Stevo_666 said:I'm not sure that EV enthusiasts exist as there's not much to get enthused about, but I guess the equivalent would be
I guess with some decent software you can waste some battery to replicate your favourite engine tune and vibrations...
FWIW, I will concede that a really big diesel sounds quite impressive 😀.
My car puts a smile on my face every time I drive it. And that's what counts, beyond the mundane point getting getting me from a to b. I honestly think you would never understand.
I also suggest there should be a maximum size for passenger vehicles… they are getting ridiculously large for our road network. If you replaced every Range Rover with a Panda, we would have a smaller problem to deal with"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
What if the carrot was fewer cars on the road so you can vroom vroom about more if you paid more?Stevo_666 said:
Luckily you don't get to decidekingstongraham said:
Great, so now it's just a question of what value you place on your chosen leisure pursuit.Stevo_666 said:
I already do, ta.kingstongraham said:
Sounds like you value it enough to pay quite a bit extra for.Stevo_666 said:
It's no more antiquated than using batteries, which were originally invented in 1800.rjsterry said:
Hence the joke. These are almost exactly the arguments that steam enthusiasts use about diesel and electric locomotives.Stevo_666 said:
They make no proper noise and have no soul. And they are very heavy so their handling, braking and dynamics are inferior.ugo.santalucia said:
EVs have in principle better performance than thermic engines. The acceleration is superior and the torque is immense.Stevo_666 said:I'm not sure that EV enthusiasts exist as there's not much to get enthused about, but I guess the equivalent would be
I guess with some decent software you can waste some battery to replicate your favourite engine tune and vibrations...
FWIW, I will concede that a really big diesel sounds quite impressive 😀.
My car puts a smile on my face every time I drive it. And that's what counts, beyond the mundane point getting getting me from a to b. I honestly think you would never understand. I already pay enough.
As has been mentioned above, there needs to be more carrot and less stick if they want more cooperation from the majority of the public.0 -
I find it really hard to believe, in 2023 South East England that driving can put a smile on anyone's face.kingstongraham said:
What if the carrot was fewer cars on the road so you can vroom vroom about more if you paid more?Stevo_666 said:
Luckily you don't get to decidekingstongraham said:
Great, so now it's just a question of what value you place on your chosen leisure pursuit.Stevo_666 said:
I already do, ta.kingstongraham said:
Sounds like you value it enough to pay quite a bit extra for.Stevo_666 said:
It's no more antiquated than using batteries, which were originally invented in 1800.rjsterry said:
Hence the joke. These are almost exactly the arguments that steam enthusiasts use about diesel and electric locomotives.Stevo_666 said:
They make no proper noise and have no soul. And they are very heavy so their handling, braking and dynamics are inferior.ugo.santalucia said:
EVs have in principle better performance than thermic engines. The acceleration is superior and the torque is immense.Stevo_666 said:I'm not sure that EV enthusiasts exist as there's not much to get enthused about, but I guess the equivalent would be
I guess with some decent software you can waste some battery to replicate your favourite engine tune and vibrations...
FWIW, I will concede that a really big diesel sounds quite impressive 😀.
My car puts a smile on my face every time I drive it. And that's what counts, beyond the mundane point getting getting me from a to b. I honestly think you would never understand. I already pay enough.
As has been mentioned above, there needs to be more carrot and less stick if they want more cooperation from the majority of the public.
Far too many cars for far too inadequate roads.
I would have thought disincentivising other people's car journeys and paying more for your own was exactly what was needed if that was genuinely the case.
If the thing putting a smile on your face is showing off your big expensive car, this works equally well.
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Just looked at the number of vehicles licenced in the UK for 1994 vs 2022.
The number of cars has gone up from 21 million to 35 million.0 -
And that's despite car sales falling from 1.9 million in 1994 to 1.6 million last year. Car sales peaked in 2016 at 2.7 million. The increase in car registrations is due to older cars remaining on the road a lot longer. Old cars are cheap, and many households have several cars. Many of the houses on the road where I live have paved their front gardens and have 2 or 3 cars parked on it, and they still have another car parked on the road/grass verge, and it isn't a particularly affluent area.kingstongraham said:Just looked at the number of vehicles licenced in the UK for 1994 vs 2022.
The number of cars has gone up from 21 million to 35 million.0 -
Was 28.7 million in 2012. That's a lot more cars.0
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When looking for a reason for traffic problems that need solving, I think that might be a suspect.0
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there is an obvious solution to that, which is to tax very heavily any second car one owns. Household of 2 licences… 3 cars? Tax the third one 10 times over and they will sell it… another no brainerdavebradswmb said:
And that's despite car sales falling from 1.9 million in 1994 to 1.6 million last year. Car sales peaked in 2016 at 2.7 million. The increase in car registrations is due to older cars remaining on the road a lot longer. Old cars are cheap, and many households have several cars. Many of the houses on the road where I live have paved their front gardens and have 2 or 3 cars parked on it, and they still have another car parked on the road/grass verge, and it isn't a particularly affluent area.kingstongraham said:Just looked at the number of vehicles licenced in the UK for 1994 vs 2022.
The number of cars has gone up from 21 million to 35 million.
left the forum March 20230 -
What problem is that solving? I'm not massively concerned about cars that are parked up on someone's drive and not being driven.ugo.santalucia said:
there is an obvious solution to that, which is to tax very heavily any second car one owns. Household of 2 licences… 3 cars? Tax the third one 10 times over and they will sell it… another no brainerdavebradswmb said:
And that's despite car sales falling from 1.9 million in 1994 to 1.6 million last year. Car sales peaked in 2016 at 2.7 million. The increase in car registrations is due to older cars remaining on the road a lot longer. Old cars are cheap, and many households have several cars. Many of the houses on the road where I live have paved their front gardens and have 2 or 3 cars parked on it, and they still have another car parked on the road/grass verge, and it isn't a particularly affluent area.kingstongraham said:Just looked at the number of vehicles licenced in the UK for 1994 vs 2022.
The number of cars has gone up from 21 million to 35 million.1 -
35 million cars between 65 million people - some of whom are under 17 or enlightened?kingstongraham said:Just looked at the number of vehicles licenced in the UK for 1994 vs 2022.
The number of cars has gone up from 21 million to 35 million.0 -
me neither, but roadside parking is a problem in less well off areaskingstongraham said:
What problem is that solving? I'm not massively concerned about cars that are parked up on someone's drive and not being driven.ugo.santalucia said:
there is an obvious solution to that, which is to tax very heavily any second car one owns. Household of 2 licences… 3 cars? Tax the third one 10 times over and they will sell it… another no brainerdavebradswmb said:
And that's despite car sales falling from 1.9 million in 1994 to 1.6 million last year. Car sales peaked in 2016 at 2.7 million. The increase in car registrations is due to older cars remaining on the road a lot longer. Old cars are cheap, and many households have several cars. Many of the houses on the road where I live have paved their front gardens and have 2 or 3 cars parked on it, and they still have another car parked on the road/grass verge, and it isn't a particularly affluent area.kingstongraham said:Just looked at the number of vehicles licenced in the UK for 1994 vs 2022.
The number of cars has gone up from 21 million to 35 million.
left the forum March 20230
