The Big 'Let's sell our cars and take buses/ebikes instead' thread (warning: probably very dull)
Comments
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We had our annual boiler service last week and got onto the subject of what we might do for a replacement, as our boiler is 19 years old, with availability of parts starting to become a bit of an issue, and it's likely on its way out sooner rather than later.Munsford0 said:As I understand it, replacing a gas boiler with a heat pump requires much bigger radiators and in older properties a lot of sealing and insulation to make it effective? Or have I been sold a myth?
We're in a 30's semi with solid brick walls and would likely need to have external insulation fitted, so not just a simple swap?
The engineer was not a fan of heat pumps as in his view, they would only really work in new builds, with appropriate insulation built in. Retro-fitting insulation to older houses would be impractical. He was much more of a fan of a gas / hydrogen mix being used for domestic heating, as condensing boilers, which are very widespread, can run on such a mix already. I've read some stuff that suggests hydrogen for domestic heating isn't really viable, so it will be interesting to see how things go.
We have a decent sized garden so a ground-source heat pump might be viable. From what I've read, they are better than the air-source versions.
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wallace_and_gromit said:
We had our annual boiler service last week and got onto the subject of what we might do for a replacement, as our boiler is 19 years old, with availability of parts starting to become a bit of an issue, and it's likely on its way out sooner rather than later.Munsford0 said:As I understand it, replacing a gas boiler with a heat pump requires much bigger radiators and in older properties a lot of sealing and insulation to make it effective? Or have I been sold a myth?
We're in a 30's semi with solid brick walls and would likely need to have external insulation fitted, so not just a simple swap?
The engineer was not a fan of heat pumps as in his view, they would only really work in new builds, with appropriate insulation built in. Retro-fitting insulation to older houses would be impractical. He was much more of a fan of a gas / hydrogen mix being used for domestic heating, as condensing boilers, which are very widespread, can run on such a mix already. I've read some stuff that suggests hydrogen for domestic heating isn't really viable, so it will be interesting to see how things go.
We have a decent sized garden so a ground-source heat pump might be viable. From what I've read, they are better than the air-source versions.
Yep. I like the idea of that and it sounds like it could work. It's a shame you can't trial it first to see if it matches the expectations.1 -
Personally the reverse is very much the case, (if not for the cost) an electric car would be an easy switch. A heat pump would be a massive pita.First.Aspect said:
I told you I'm not sure on this.rjsterry said:How much more gradual than a decade and a half would you like? After you're dead so it's someone else's problem?
The issue with EVs is they are still both censored and expensive.
Replacing a boiler with a heat pump is no more difficult than replacing a boiler with a boiler, so it's a less compelling argument.
Perhaps the only issue is forcing replacements by a certain date, rather than forcing replacements to be of a certain type.
Forcing double glazing and or insulation on people is so hugely costly it's also potentially problematic. Double glazing at least.
I'd imagine many houses on the road are in a similar position. Even allowing for difficulties charging with on street parking.0 -
https://geoexchange.com.au/ground-heat-exchanger/
Different ways to put the pipes too.0 -
They were slipping on all the horseshit when it was lying around on asphalt.First.Aspect said:
How does this discourage horses? Steptoe managed okay. And we have lots of horses near here. It's rural tarmac. Perhaps that's different.kingstongraham said:
Cities installed asphalt roads to encourage the uptake of cars and discourage the use of horses because of all the horse manure everywhere.focuszing723 said:
Were people forced from the horse and cart to motor vehicles?rjsterry said:How much more gradual than a decade and a half would you like? After you're dead so it's someone else's problem?
No, the technology and price was good enough to make the switch natural. Why does it need to be forced?0 -
I'm not moaning, I was just asking the question in response to "Replacing a boiler with a heat pump is no more difficult than replacing a boiler with a boiler"
Is it just a straight swap and it will work out of the box, or would it likely need some other stuff doing to make it viable?
Over the years we've installed double glazing, upped the insulation in the loft, lifted all the suspended wooden floors and installed thick PIR sheets between the joists and sealed every potentially draughty crevice. With hindsight we should have had the solid walls insulated when we had the extension built 20 years ago, but we were trying to house a growing family on a finite budget.
Hobsons choice is probably a few years away when the current boiler expires; as we're just about to become a retired couple we'll likely cut our losses, sell up and downsize to something newer, warmer, more planet friendly and leave the remedial work to the new owners who'll want to knock the place about anyway.1 -
Unless of course the heat pump could be placed somewhere it would really annoy our neighbour, in which case I'm suddenly interested!1
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What, like the Mediterranean?Munsford0 said:I'm not moaning, I was just asking the question in response to "Replacing a boiler with a heat pump is no more difficult than replacing a boiler with a boiler"
Is it just a straight swap and it will work out of the box, or would it likely need some other stuff doing to make it viable?
Over the years we've installed double glazing, upped the insulation in the loft, lifted all the suspended wooden floors and installed thick PIR sheets between the joists and sealed every potentially draughty crevice. With hindsight we should have had the solid walls insulated when we had the extension built 20 years ago, but we were trying to house a growing family on a finite budget.
Hobsons choice is probably a few years away when the current boiler expires; as we're just about to become a retired couple we'll likely cut our losses, sell up and downsize to something newer, warmer, more planet friendly and leave the remedial work to the new owners who'll want to knock the place about anyway.1 -
Nothings straightforward is it?Jezyboy said:
Personally the reverse is very much the case, (if not for the cost) an electric car would be an easy switch. A heat pump would be a massive pita.First.Aspect said:
I told you I'm not sure on this.rjsterry said:How much more gradual than a decade and a half would you like? After you're dead so it's someone else's problem?
The issue with EVs is they are still both censored and expensive.
Replacing a boiler with a heat pump is no more difficult than replacing a boiler with a boiler, so it's a less compelling argument.
Perhaps the only issue is forcing replacements by a certain date, rather than forcing replacements to be of a certain type.
Forcing double glazing and or insulation on people is so hugely costly it's also potentially problematic. Double glazing at least.
I'd imagine many houses on the road are in a similar position. Even allowing for difficulties charging with on street parking.
Happily we are buying somewhere with a croquet lawn that will accommodate a ground source heat pump rather nicely, when the time comes.
No, we aren't planning on taking up croquet, before anyone asks.0 -
The Mediterranean was a consideration till parts of it started bursting into flames between bouts of cataclysmic flooding...0
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Rules out Dawlish as well then.Munsford0 said:The Mediterranean was a consideration till parts of it started bursting into flames between bouts of cataclysmic flooding...
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You are not considering the non-zero cost of not making these changes.First.Aspect said:
I told you I'm not sure on this.rjsterry said:How much more gradual than a decade and a half would you like? After you're dead so it's someone else's problem?
The issue with EVs is they are still both censored and expensive.
Replacing a boiler with a heat pump is no more difficult than replacing a boiler with a boiler, so it's a less compelling argument.
Perhaps the only issue is forcing replacements by a certain date, rather than forcing replacements to be of a certain type.
Forcing double glazing and or insulation on people is so hugely costly it's also potentially problematic. Double glazing at least.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
You aren't reading what I'm writing.rjsterry said:
You are not considering the non-zero cost of not making these changes.First.Aspect said:
I told you I'm not sure on this.rjsterry said:How much more gradual than a decade and a half would you like? After you're dead so it's someone else's problem?
The issue with EVs is they are still both censored and expensive.
Replacing a boiler with a heat pump is no more difficult than replacing a boiler with a boiler, so it's a less compelling argument.
Perhaps the only issue is forcing replacements by a certain date, rather than forcing replacements to be of a certain type.
Forcing double glazing and or insulation on people is so hugely costly it's also potentially problematic. Double glazing at least.
Destination = good
Route = more than one option.0 -
External insulation is likely to be somewhere around £15-25k at a very rough guess. There are now heat pumps available well under £10k installed. I'm not sure I'd call that vast in the context of, say, a foreign family holiday. I think it's unlikely that the lack of either renders a property worthless. Of course it's not a trivial cost, but neither is a £4k annual energy bill, nor the cost of cleaning up after a flash flood.First.Aspect said:
You've had a decade to make this vast investment and if you face the Hobsons choice of selling a worthless property or spending what its worth making it worth what it used to be, well thats just bad luck. Talk to the hand.Munsford0 said:As I understand it, replacing a gas boiler with a heat pump requires much bigger radiators and in older properties a lot of sealing and insulation to make it effective? Or have I been sold a myth?
We're in a 30's semi with solid brick walls and would likely need to have external insulation fitted, so not just a simple swap?
Is that right folks?1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Croquet is great fun. One of the many advantages of coming from a large family is summer get-togthers, getting blotto playing croquet.First.Aspect said:
Nothings straightforward is it?Jezyboy said:
Personally the reverse is very much the case, (if not for the cost) an electric car would be an easy switch. A heat pump would be a massive pita.First.Aspect said:
I told you I'm not sure on this.rjsterry said:How much more gradual than a decade and a half would you like? After you're dead so it's someone else's problem?
The issue with EVs is they are still both censored and expensive.
Replacing a boiler with a heat pump is no more difficult than replacing a boiler with a boiler, so it's a less compelling argument.
Perhaps the only issue is forcing replacements by a certain date, rather than forcing replacements to be of a certain type.
Forcing double glazing and or insulation on people is so hugely costly it's also potentially problematic. Double glazing at least.
I'd imagine many houses on the road are in a similar position. Even allowing for difficulties charging with on street parking.
Happily we are buying somewhere with a croquet lawn that will accommodate a ground source heat pump rather nicely, when the time comes.
No, we aren't planning on taking up croquet, before anyone asks.
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Wow, bubble alert.rjsterry said:
External insulation is likely to be somewhere around £15-25k at a very rough guess. There are now heat pumps available well under £10k installed. I'm not sure I'd call that vast in the context of, say, a foreign family holiday. I think it's unlikely that the lack of either renders a property worthless. Of course it's not a trivial cost, but neither is a £4k annual energy bill, nor the cost of cleaning up after a flash flood.First.Aspect said:
You've had a decade to make this vast investment and if you face the Hobsons choice of selling a worthless property or spending what its worth making it worth what it used to be, well thats just bad luck. Talk to the hand.Munsford0 said:As I understand it, replacing a gas boiler with a heat pump requires much bigger radiators and in older properties a lot of sealing and insulation to make it effective? Or have I been sold a myth?
We're in a 30's semi with solid brick walls and would likely need to have external insulation fitted, so not just a simple swap?
Is that right folks?
Yeah, most people would have to borrow to find £40k. And some just couldn't, because they, you know, already borrowed?
Interesting you think that's not that much.
For me, £10k is an awful lot to spend on a holiday, let alone 3-4 times that. I just managed to get to 5 figures for our 50th, but that included 5 star hotel and scuba diving.
How the hell much are you spending?
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In general, this is such an easy trap into which to fall. I do it myself on a regular basis!First.Aspect said:
Wow, bubble alert.rjsterry said:
External insulation is likely to be somewhere around £15-25k at a very rough guess. There are now heat pumps available well under £10k installed. I'm not sure I'd call that vast in the context of, say, a foreign family holiday. I think it's unlikely that the lack of either renders a property worthless. Of course it's not a trivial cost, but neither is a £4k annual energy bill, nor the cost of cleaning up after a flash flood.First.Aspect said:
You've had a decade to make this vast investment and if you face the Hobsons choice of selling a worthless property or spending what its worth making it worth what it used to be, well thats just bad luck. Talk to the hand.Munsford0 said:As I understand it, replacing a gas boiler with a heat pump requires much bigger radiators and in older properties a lot of sealing and insulation to make it effective? Or have I been sold a myth?
We're in a 30's semi with solid brick walls and would likely need to have external insulation fitted, so not just a simple swap?
Is that right folks?
I find Twitter very useful as for some reason, the algorithm spams me with stuff from people who are quite clearly lunatics, but from a very different part of the political universe and who therefore cover (unintentionally) a core issue from a helpful alternative standpoint, which helps my question and sometimes refine my "world view".
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Still struggling to juxtapose the average dwelling being 700 sq ft and the average family holiday being tens of thousands of pounds.
I must be spending way more on wine than I think, because I just don't have that kind of money.0 -
No sh*t. I'd certainly need to borrow if I was spending that. Pick a different comparator if you like. Point is, it's a fraction of the value of the property and much less than flood or fire damage will cost you.First.Aspect said:
Wow, bubble alert.rjsterry said:
External insulation is likely to be somewhere around £15-25k at a very rough guess. There are now heat pumps available well under £10k installed. I'm not sure I'd call that vast in the context of, say, a foreign family holiday. I think it's unlikely that the lack of either renders a property worthless. Of course it's not a trivial cost, but neither is a £4k annual energy bill, nor the cost of cleaning up after a flash flood.First.Aspect said:
You've had a decade to make this vast investment and if you face the Hobsons choice of selling a worthless property or spending what its worth making it worth what it used to be, well thats just bad luck. Talk to the hand.Munsford0 said:As I understand it, replacing a gas boiler with a heat pump requires much bigger radiators and in older properties a lot of sealing and insulation to make it effective? Or have I been sold a myth?
We're in a 30's semi with solid brick walls and would likely need to have external insulation fitted, so not just a simple swap?
Is that right folks?
Yeah, most people would have to borrow to find £40k. And some just couldn't, because they, you know, already borrowed?
Interesting you think that's not that much.
For me, £10k is an awful lot to spend on a holiday, let alone 3-4 times that. I just managed to get to 5 figures for our 50th, but that included 5 star hotel and scuba diving.
How the hell much are you spending?1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I'm amazed there are still properties out there (other than where heritage issues affect them) that haven't got double glazing. Ours is at least 25 years old and we are now in a position where it really needs to be upgraded so how there are any properties deemed fit to rent out that don't have it at all is ridiculous. There have also been all sorts of grant schemes over the years to improve insulation. I've been looking at the costs of replacing our boiler with a heat pump and with the government grant it looks like it will be less than £5k. The reason I'm not getting it done is the space required for the kit rather than the cost.0
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We don't have any double glazing. Where can I get a grant to get it done, as it's going to cost a fortune - more than it will ever save in energy costs or add to property value.0
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How is a new boiler going to prevent flooding?rjsterry said:
No sh*t. I'd certainly need to borrow if I was spending that. Pick a different comparator if you like. Point is, it's a fraction of the value of the property and much less than flood or fire damage will cost you.First.Aspect said:
Wow, bubble alert.rjsterry said:
External insulation is likely to be somewhere around £15-25k at a very rough guess. There are now heat pumps available well under £10k installed. I'm not sure I'd call that vast in the context of, say, a foreign family holiday. I think it's unlikely that the lack of either renders a property worthless. Of course it's not a trivial cost, but neither is a £4k annual energy bill, nor the cost of cleaning up after a flash flood.First.Aspect said:
You've had a decade to make this vast investment and if you face the Hobsons choice of selling a worthless property or spending what its worth making it worth what it used to be, well thats just bad luck. Talk to the hand.Munsford0 said:As I understand it, replacing a gas boiler with a heat pump requires much bigger radiators and in older properties a lot of sealing and insulation to make it effective? Or have I been sold a myth?
We're in a 30's semi with solid brick walls and would likely need to have external insulation fitted, so not just a simple swap?
Is that right folks?
Yeah, most people would have to borrow to find £40k. And some just couldn't, because they, you know, already borrowed?
Interesting you think that's not that much.
For me, £10k is an awful lot to spend on a holiday, let alone 3-4 times that. I just managed to get to 5 figures for our 50th, but that included 5 star hotel and scuba diving.
How the hell much are you spending?0 -
Have you got house insurance?shirley_basso said:We don't have any double glazing. Where can I get a grant to get it done, as it's going to cost a fortune - more than it will ever save in energy costs or add to property value.
If so, I know some guys.0 -
Okay. So are you going to buy more land, or is there not a grant for that?Pross said:I'm amazed there are still properties out there (other than where heritage issues affect them) that haven't got double glazing. Ours is at least 25 years old and we are now in a position where it really needs to be upgraded so how there are any properties deemed fit to rent out that don't have it at all is ridiculous. There have also been all sorts of grant schemes over the years to improve insulation. I've been looking at the costs of replacing our boiler with a heat pump and with the government grant it looks like it will be less than £5k. The reason I'm not getting it done is the space required for the kit rather than the cost.
Fwiw almost none of the houses we've looked at had double glazing. Perhaps due to type, various barm conversions or listed ones, people have been replacing them peacemeal as required.
The ones that do have double glazing tend to be two panes either side of a moist tropical ecosystem.0 -
The size of the cavity between the glass panes makes a difference.0
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What, in terms of biodiversity?focuszing723 said:The size of the cavity between the glass panes makes a difference.
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Triple glazing sounds good, but it's bad enough when one unit breaks down. Meh, close the curtains at night and face the natural dehumidifier in the morning.0
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Who said anything about a new boiler? See, I can do deliberate misinterpretation, too.First.Aspect said:
How is a new boiler going to prevent flooding?rjsterry said:
No sh*t. I'd certainly need to borrow if I was spending that. Pick a different comparator if you like. Point is, it's a fraction of the value of the property and much less than flood or fire damage will cost you.First.Aspect said:
Wow, bubble alert.rjsterry said:
External insulation is likely to be somewhere around £15-25k at a very rough guess. There are now heat pumps available well under £10k installed. I'm not sure I'd call that vast in the context of, say, a foreign family holiday. I think it's unlikely that the lack of either renders a property worthless. Of course it's not a trivial cost, but neither is a £4k annual energy bill, nor the cost of cleaning up after a flash flood.First.Aspect said:
You've had a decade to make this vast investment and if you face the Hobsons choice of selling a worthless property or spending what its worth making it worth what it used to be, well thats just bad luck. Talk to the hand.Munsford0 said:As I understand it, replacing a gas boiler with a heat pump requires much bigger radiators and in older properties a lot of sealing and insulation to make it effective? Or have I been sold a myth?
We're in a 30's semi with solid brick walls and would likely need to have external insulation fitted, so not just a simple swap?
Is that right folks?
Yeah, most people would have to borrow to find £40k. And some just couldn't, because they, you know, already borrowed?
Interesting you think that's not that much.
For me, £10k is an awful lot to spend on a holiday, let alone 3-4 times that. I just managed to get to 5 figures for our 50th, but that included 5 star hotel and scuba diving.
How the hell much are you spending?
By all means prioritise whatever else you are spending your money on and moan about the lack of fibre broadband in whichever bit of Devon you eventually pick. Meanwhile the stuff that has happened in southern Europe will be happening here soon enough. Then you'll be moaning about why hasn't someone (else, obviously) done something to avoid this.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Already happening here. You should pay more attention.rjsterry said:
Who said anything about a new boiler? See, I can do deliberate misinterpretation, too.First.Aspect said:
How is a new boiler going to prevent flooding?rjsterry said:
No sh*t. I'd certainly need to borrow if I was spending that. Pick a different comparator if you like. Point is, it's a fraction of the value of the property and much less than flood or fire damage will cost you.First.Aspect said:
Wow, bubble alert.rjsterry said:
External insulation is likely to be somewhere around £15-25k at a very rough guess. There are now heat pumps available well under £10k installed. I'm not sure I'd call that vast in the context of, say, a foreign family holiday. I think it's unlikely that the lack of either renders a property worthless. Of course it's not a trivial cost, but neither is a £4k annual energy bill, nor the cost of cleaning up after a flash flood.First.Aspect said:
You've had a decade to make this vast investment and if you face the Hobsons choice of selling a worthless property or spending what its worth making it worth what it used to be, well thats just bad luck. Talk to the hand.Munsford0 said:As I understand it, replacing a gas boiler with a heat pump requires much bigger radiators and in older properties a lot of sealing and insulation to make it effective? Or have I been sold a myth?
We're in a 30's semi with solid brick walls and would likely need to have external insulation fitted, so not just a simple swap?
Is that right folks?
Yeah, most people would have to borrow to find £40k. And some just couldn't, because they, you know, already borrowed?
Interesting you think that's not that much.
For me, £10k is an awful lot to spend on a holiday, let alone 3-4 times that. I just managed to get to 5 figures for our 50th, but that included 5 star hotel and scuba diving.
How the hell much are you spending?
By all means prioritise whatever else you are spending your money on and moan about the lack of fibre broadband in whichever bit of Devon you eventually pick. Meanwhile the stuff that has happened in southern Europe will be happening here soon enough. Then you'll be moaning about why hasn't someone (else, obviously) done something to avoid this.
As I said earlier, the destination is fine, but I intensely dislike that discussing how to get there descends into either you are with us or against us. Either you agree with this route, or you are a climate change denier. Either you agree with ULEZ or you want babies to die prematurely.
Bit simplistic when it comes down to it.
Oh but the fires and the babies and the floods. Oh the humanity.1 -
Replacing boilers with heat pumps would, if the 'lectric comes from renewables, do a tiny bit towards averting fires and floods.
My fear is we've already fvcked up the climate so much we've passed a tipping point. If we stopped all fossil fuel burning tomorrow would the ice caps ever recover??
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