The actual I am watching the World Cup thread. No, non World Cup watchers please. Spoilers.

DeVlaeminck

surrey_commuter said:

DeVlaeminck said:

Countries with a better record of reaching/winning WC and Euros finals in my lifetime. Spain, France, Germany, Argentina, Italy, Brazil, the Netherlands, Czechoslovakia, Greece, Denmark, Soviet Union and Portugal.

Those with an equal record of 1 losing final - Czech Republic, Yugoslavia and Croatia (apologies to any nation I've missed out).

Can't help but think our club success (even taking into account that in recent times there are many more non English players) suggests something is seriously wrong with our national team.

DeVlaeminck said:

Countries with a better record of reaching/winning WC and Euros finals in my lifetime. Spain, France, Germany, Argentina, Italy, Brazil, the Netherlands, Czechoslovakia, Greece, Denmark, Soviet Union and Portugal.

Those with an equal record of 1 losing final - Czech Republic, Yugoslavia and Croatia (apologies to any nation I've missed out).

Can't help but think our club success (even taking into account that in recent times there are many more non English players) suggests something is seriously wrong with our national team.

DeVlaeminck said:

Countries with a better record of reaching/winning WC and Euros finals in my lifetime. Spain, France, Germany, Argentina, Italy, Brazil, the Netherlands, Czechoslovakia, Greece, Denmark, Soviet Union and Portugal.

Those with an equal record of 1 losing final - Czech Republic, Yugoslavia and Croatia (apologies to any nation I've missed out).

Can't help but think our club success (even taking into account that in recent times there are many more non English players) suggests something is seriously wrong with our national team.

I would argue that for a country of 45 million we are doing alright, for a country of 45 million last 16 is par and last 8 is doing well.

In your list the countries consistently doing better than us all have far bigger populations to select from.

England's population isn't 45 million it's over 56 million and no those countries do not all have a far bigger population.

morstar

rick_chasey said:

MattFalle said:

.

rick_chasey said:

Seems a bit incongruous having the players not allowed to talk back when the crowd is just out-and-out abusive most of the match.

So you're happy with the players giving abuse to the ref?

As much as I am the ref and players getting abuse from people in the stands all the time.

Seems odd a player can get sent off for that when the response is thousands of other men calling the ref the same.

This is idiotic.

Do you not see a difference between anonymously chanting along with a crowd and directly getting in somebodies face?

It’s like comparing liking an obnoxious tweet to being obnoxious to someone face to face. They are very different.

Not to mention the fact that the players reaction will also insight the crowd.

FWIW, as an ice hockey ref, I can insist rink management deal with abusive behaviour from the stands too (which isn’t necessarily aimed at the ref). Haven’t done it at a senior game but I have for junior games.

Pross

rick_chasey said:

Really? You’re in a sea of swearing but if you do you’re sent off?!

Do you really not see the difference between those playing the game to a set of rules and those paying to watch the game? Also, the crowd aren’t literally nose to nose swearing in the refs face and, if they were, would rightly be arrested.

crescent

Unfortunately, attempted intimidation of the referee is one of these things that is now deemed "all part of the modern game" now, up there with 'simulation' i.e. cheating. I genuinely find it ludicrous that players are commended by commentators for diving, usually along the lines of "that's clever play, the defender has made a slight contact and he's gone down, he knew what he was doing there to win the free kick/penalty". If you're genuinely fouled and brought down, fair enough. If it is a minor contact and you could have easily stayed up but have fallen like a stricken rhino then it is cheating and you need to be having a word with yourself rather than the referee.
I'm not defending it but if people are offended by the language or chanting at a football stadium then I guess they have the option of not entering the stadium. Where it is a problem for me is when it is replicated in a public park. For instance, I have seen local, organised amateur games (Sunday league type matches) being played on a public pitch and the language and abuse meted out is unreal, all in earshot of kids playing in the vicinity or families out walking. If I walked down the road f'ing and blinding at the top of my voice I'm sure it would not be acceptable. I'm no prude, I can swear with the best of them, but only in what I would consider an appropriate scenario, not at the top of my voice in a public place.
Although I have watched most of the games this WC, I tend not to follow football in any form, for the above reasons and the many other unpleasant side issues that go with it.

rick_chasey

Pross said:

rick_chasey said:

Really? You’re in a sea of swearing but if you do you’re sent off?!

Do you really not see the difference between those playing the game to a set of rules and those paying to watch the game? Also, the crowd aren’t literally nose to nose swearing in the refs face and, if they were, would rightly be arrested.

lol have you lot been near a proper football crowd ever?

I've seen people scream c*nt within an inch of a policeman's face and they don't do anything if it's football.

You're all being a bit naïve here.

rick_chasey

morstar said:

FWIW, as an ice hockey ref, I can insist rink management deal with abusive behaviour from the stands too (which isn’t necessarily aimed at the ref). Haven’t done it at a senior game but I have for junior games.

If you tried to do this in football you'd cause a lot of trouble.

This is why I hate club football so much. The rules are different for football fans during games than the rest of the time.

surrey_commuter

rick_chasey said:

Dorset_Boy said:

rick_chasey said:

Really? You’re in a sea of swearing but if you do you’re sent off?!

Ever wondered why there's a shortage of referees at grass routes level?
But then you probably don't care as that does come into the 'reality' of Pro Football Manager or whatever game it is that you base it all on.
The antic of the players has an effect in other sports too.

Look I grew up a middle class kid and in my local under 11s team the parents of the rough kids (usually the strikers haha) would always be swearing. Usually at their own kids.

Was the same in the stands at Cambridge united, same at Chelsea.

Even at Fulham in the neutrals section you can hear an arm full of F words.

I mean, you should hear the chants when I was with the away fans at the Sheffield derby. Spent most of the half calling the keeper a nonce.

I get the logic, I just think the rugby types who make out you can crack down on it seem to miss the context and the point.

No-one will admit it but the ability to say absolutely whatever you want in the stands is part and parcel of the game and I think a hell of a lot of fans, the ones who actually travel and pay, would be very against banning swearing from the stadium.

It's football, it's tribal, this is all the sh!t that comes with it.

I think it is relevant to the story whether the keeper is a nonce or not.

One of the few players I saw react to fan abuse was Peter Shilton after we had spent half the game calling him for a wife beater.

seanoconn

rick_chasey said:

Dorset_Boy said:

rick_chasey said:

Really? You’re in a sea of swearing but if you do you’re sent off?!

Ever wondered why there's a shortage of referees at grass routes level?
But then you probably don't care as that does come into the 'reality' of Pro Football Manager or whatever game it is that you base it all on.
The antic of the players has an effect in other sports too.

Look I grew up a middle class kid and in my local under 11s team the parents of the rough kids (usually the strikers haha) would always be swearing. Usually at their own kids.

Was the same in the stands at Cambridge united, same at Chelsea.

Even at Fulham in the neutrals section you can hear an arm full of F words.

I mean, you should hear the chants when I was with the away fans at the Sheffield derby. Spent most of the half calling the keeper a nonce.

I get the logic, I just think the rugby types who make out you can crack down on it seem to miss the context and the point.

No-one will admit it but the ability to say absolutely whatever you want in the stands is part and parcel of the game and I think a hell of a lot of fans, the ones who actually travel and pay, would be very against banning swearing from the stadium.

It's football, it's tribal, this is all the sh!t that comes with it.

Ref harassment/abuse, feigning injury and all the other forms of cheating are the reason I don’t love football. Sin bins and retrospective punishments might be the way forward. But as Rick said, the poor behaviour is ingrained in football.

Went to watch AFC Wimbledon with my son & dad (first time watching Wimbledon play with my dad for 25 years) last weekend, a friendly family club mid table in the second division. There was an incident with the away keeper which wasn’t his fault and our fans behind the goal had to be restrained from trying to get on the pitch to confront the keeper! They’ve got eyes, they must have seen he wasn’t really at fault. Idiot herd mentality. Some people use football as an excuse to get p!ssed and shout horrible things at people for 90mins or worse.

morstar

rick_chasey said:

Pross said:

rick_chasey said:

Really? You’re in a sea of swearing but if you do you’re sent off?!

Do you really not see the difference between those playing the game to a set of rules and those paying to watch the game? Also, the crowd aren’t literally nose to nose swearing in the refs face and, if they were, would rightly be arrested.

lol have you lot been near a proper football crowd ever?

I've seen people scream c*nt within an inch of a policeman's face and they don't do anything if it's football.

You're all being a bit naïve here.

Not at all, you are saying football can’t empower the ref to take action against abusive players because a large crowd is very difficult to deal with. This is conflating two very different issues.

Football does nothing as it is too steeped in the sanctity of its traditional rules, however ill suited to the modern game they are.

It’s like the US constitution.

surrey_commuter

DeVlaeminck said:

surrey_commuter said:

DeVlaeminck said:

Countries with a better record of reaching/winning WC and Euros finals in my lifetime. Spain, France, Germany, Argentina, Italy, Brazil, the Netherlands, Czechoslovakia, Greece, Denmark, Soviet Union and Portugal.

Those with an equal record of 1 losing final - Czech Republic, Yugoslavia and Croatia (apologies to any nation I've missed out).

Can't help but think our club success (even taking into account that in recent times there are many more non English players) suggests something is seriously wrong with our national team.

DeVlaeminck said:

Countries with a better record of reaching/winning WC and Euros finals in my lifetime. Spain, France, Germany, Argentina, Italy, Brazil, the Netherlands, Czechoslovakia, Greece, Denmark, Soviet Union and Portugal.

Those with an equal record of 1 losing final - Czech Republic, Yugoslavia and Croatia (apologies to any nation I've missed out).

Can't help but think our club success (even taking into account that in recent times there are many more non English players) suggests something is seriously wrong with our national team.

DeVlaeminck said:

Countries with a better record of reaching/winning WC and Euros finals in my lifetime. Spain, France, Germany, Argentina, Italy, Brazil, the Netherlands, Czechoslovakia, Greece, Denmark, Soviet Union and Portugal.

Those with an equal record of 1 losing final - Czech Republic, Yugoslavia and Croatia (apologies to any nation I've missed out).

Can't help but think our club success (even taking into account that in recent times there are many more non English players) suggests something is seriously wrong with our national team.

I would argue that for a country of 45 million we are doing alright, for a country of 45 million last 16 is par and last 8 is doing well.

In your list the countries consistently doing better than us all have far bigger populations to select from.

England's population isn't 45 million it's over 56 million and no those countries do not all have a far bigger population.

thanks for the correction.

I still think last 8 is doing well.

I also think that under Southgate we just play for set pieces and I wonder what we would have achieved if we took the brake off. And that would include dropping Kane (too slow and falls over) and played Foden/Bellingham as they have the speed to break the line, with Kane the opposition know that will never happen. If you are going to keep Kane then put him in the Sheringham/Griezman role behind a fast number 9

rick_chasey

I disagree, this all happens in context. The problem isn't the rules or the enforcement it's the culture of football.

morstar

rick_chasey said:

morstar said:

FWIW, as an ice hockey ref, I can insist rink management deal with abusive behaviour from the stands too (which isn’t necessarily aimed at the ref). Haven’t done it at a senior game but I have for junior games.

If you tried to do this in football you'd cause a lot of trouble.

.

I am aware of that. Although only to the extent that the ref is not involved and the type of abuse.

I do believe racism is being tackled to a degree by clubs and the FA though so it’s not like there is no attempt to police the fans. If no efforts had been made, I think a football ground would be much more openly racist than it currently is.

Ref abuse is more difficult as at what point does criticism overstep the mark?

surrey_commuter

rick_chasey said:

Pross said:

rick_chasey said:

Really? You’re in a sea of swearing but if you do you’re sent off?!

Do you really not see the difference between those playing the game to a set of rules and those paying to watch the game? Also, the crowd aren’t literally nose to nose swearing in the refs face and, if they were, would rightly be arrested.

lol have you lot been near a proper football crowd ever?

I've seen people scream c*nt within an inch of a policeman's face and they don't do anything if it's football.

You're all being a bit naïve here.

yes, I have been to plenty of football matches, many of them before everything became sanitised so have seen provocation as well as clubbings, dogsset on people and cavalry charges. Bizarrely the worse i saw was walking a horse into a crowd backwards.

Funniest was a copper on a horse at Wembley tube shouting at the crowd to act like civilised human being, he was met by a chorus of woohhs!! and somebody near the gate line shouting "fvck off Tonto!!!" at which point the bastion of civilisation rode his horse into the packed tube station in an attempt to apprehend the miscreant.

Anyway I have seen far worse on marches (singinging about killing PC Blakelock) so I would argue it is about the power of the mob than football specific.

kingstongraham

rick_chasey said:

Pross said:

rick_chasey said:

Really? You’re in a sea of swearing but if you do you’re sent off?!

Do you really not see the difference between those playing the game to a set of rules and those paying to watch the game? Also, the crowd aren’t literally nose to nose swearing in the refs face and, if they were, would rightly be arrested.

lol have you lot been near a proper football crowd ever?

I've seen people scream c*nt within an inch of a policeman's face and they don't do anything if it's football.

You're all being a bit naïve here.

I'm guessing that's a no.

Pross

rick_chasey said:

Pross said:

rick_chasey said:

Really? You’re in a sea of swearing but if you do you’re sent off?!

Do you really not see the difference between those playing the game to a set of rules and those paying to watch the game? Also, the crowd aren’t literally nose to nose swearing in the refs face and, if they were, would rightly be arrested.

lol have you lot been near a proper football crowd ever?

I've seen people scream c*nt within an inch of a policeman's face and they don't do anything if it's football.

You're all being a bit naïve here.

Um, yes. I used to travel regularly to Anfield with the local supporters club back in the 90s before I got bored of football. I suspect I've seen far more live matches than you have, I don't base my football experiences on playing Football Manager.

rick_chasey

Pross said:

rick_chasey said:

Pross said:

rick_chasey said:

Really? You’re in a sea of swearing but if you do you’re sent off?!

Do you really not see the difference between those playing the game to a set of rules and those paying to watch the game? Also, the crowd aren’t literally nose to nose swearing in the refs face and, if they were, would rightly be arrested.

lol have you lot been near a proper football crowd ever?

I've seen people scream c*nt within an inch of a policeman's face and they don't do anything if it's football.

You're all being a bit naïve here.

Um, yes. I used to travel regularly to Anfield with the local supporters club back in the 90s before I got bored of football. I suspect I've seen far more live matches than you have, I don't base my football experiences on playing Football Manager.

TBF my experience is living almost directly outside a premier league stadium for 8 years.

You can hear the abusive chants from outside the stadium!!

kingstongraham

I used to go and watch Aldershot home and some away, and then York and Cardiff (at Ninian Park) quite regularly when I lived in other parts of the country. I've been in some crowds.

Pross

I genuinely can't recall any really negative incidents on my trips to Liverpool, Arsenal in the 2010s (old company had season tickets), Welsh internationals or even the handful of Newport County games I've been too (they had a bad rep in the 80s). I avoided the worst days of the 70s and 80s (I was actually offered a chance to go to 'that' match at Hillsborough with a school friend but my parents wouldn't let me and luckily he didn't go either in the end). I used to live in a town on the railway line half way between Cardiff and Hereford and on the days they played each other it could be "fun".

The only incident I can recall was when I watched the Wales match against Romania in 1993 where they hit the post with a penalty that would have taken them to the finals in the USA and a person in the tier directly above me in the stand got hit and killed by a flare. Other than that the worst I've seen was a bit of a fight between a couple of drunken supporters at a Welsh rugby international where they nearly knocked my friends father, who was nearly 100, off his feet as we were leaving.

MattFalle

rick_chasey said:

MattFalle said:

.

rick_chasey said:

Seems a bit incongruous having the players not allowed to talk back when the crowd is just out-and-out abusive most of the match.

So you're happy with the players giving abuse to the ref?

As much as I am the ref and players getting abuse from people in the stands all the time.

Seems odd a player can get sent off for that when the response is thousands of other men calling the ref the same.

because they are brainless cretins in the crowd snd the players are playing under the laws of the game where the ref upholds those laws.

so you've said you're happy with the ref being f'd at, called the c bomb, physically intimidated?

Sometimes Rick you are special.

MattFalle

rick_chasey said:

Really? You’re in a sea of swearing but if you do you’re sent off?!

yes.

surrey_commuter

Pross said:

I genuinely can't recall any really negative incidents on my trips to Liverpool, Arsenal in the 2010s (old company had season tickets), Welsh internationals or even the handful of Newport County games I've been too (they had a bad rep in the 80s). I avoided the worst days of the 70s and 80s (I was actually offered a chance to go to 'that' match at Hillsborough with a school friend but my parents wouldn't let me and luckily he didn't go either in the end). I used to live in a town on the railway line half way between Cardiff and Hereford and on the days they played each other it could be "fun".

The only incident I can recall was when I watched the Wales match against Romania in 1993 where they hit the post with a penalty that would have taken them to the finals in the USA and a person in the tier directly above me in the stand got hit and killed by a flare. Other than that the worst I've seen was a bit of a fight between a couple of drunken supporters at a Welsh rugby international where they nearly knocked my friends father, who was nearly 100, off his feet as we were leaving.

I came to ondon in the mid-80s and used to go to Arsenal, Chelsea and England at Wembley, the Tube up there used to be like a pirate ship.

Until Hillsborough you knew it was dangerous but always felt that somebody was in control and would stop it going too far.

morstar

surrey_commuter said:

Pross said:

I genuinely can't recall any really negative incidents on my trips to Liverpool, Arsenal in the 2010s (old company had season tickets), Welsh internationals or even the handful of Newport County games I've been too (they had a bad rep in the 80s). I avoided the worst days of the 70s and 80s (I was actually offered a chance to go to 'that' match at Hillsborough with a school friend but my parents wouldn't let me and luckily he didn't go either in the end). I used to live in a town on the railway line half way between Cardiff and Hereford and on the days they played each other it could be "fun".

The only incident I can recall was when I watched the Wales match against Romania in 1993 where they hit the post with a penalty that would have taken them to the finals in the USA and a person in the tier directly above me in the stand got hit and killed by a flare. Other than that the worst I've seen was a bit of a fight between a couple of drunken supporters at a Welsh rugby international where they nearly knocked my friends father, who was nearly 100, off his feet as we were leaving.

I came to ondon in the mid-80s and used to go to Arsenal, Chelsea and England at Wembley, the Tube up there used to be like a pirate ship.

Until Hillsborough you knew it was dangerous but always felt that somebody was in control and would stop it going too far.

Heysel put the safe idea to bed surely.

pblakeney

Interesting stat. Croatia are in the semi-finals.
Having only won only one match without penalties.

crescent

pblakeney said:

Interesting stat. Croatia are in the semi-finals.
Having only won only one match without penalties.

I think they made it to the final in a similar fashion last time.

pblakeney

crescent said:

pblakeney said:

Interesting stat. Croatia are in the semi-finals.
Having only won only one match without penalties.

I think they made it to the final in a similar fashion last time.

Know what to expect tonight then.

crescent

pblakeney said:

crescent said:

pblakeney said:

Interesting stat. Croatia are in the semi-finals.
Having only won only one match without penalties.

I think they made it to the final in a similar fashion last time.

Know what to expect tonight then.

Actually, I've just checked. They won all their group matches but all their KO stages games were AET or pens.

I don't really know what I'm talking about

pblakeney

Still know what to expect tonight. 😉

Pross

I'd actually genuinely forgotten there were still matches to play when they mentioned it on the sports bulletin this morning. I guess it's the same in any country that the hype drops off once the home nations are out.

orraloon

Well well, Messi knows how to take a penalty.

Dorset_Boy

So you chip the keeper and your momentum takes you into the keeper who is stood still. Why is that a penalty?