Dog owners (rant)

First.Aspect

surrey_commuter said:

dabber said:

singleton said:

If it was me and it got any more serious than what we saw - I'd be looking for a tree to climb.

But realistically what would you do?

I would use the power of fear to try and drop them

I'd have done that Crocodile Dundee thing with my hands and they would all have just sat down.

kingstongraham

singleton said:

We had 2 GSDs when I was young and then a retriever and as an adult myself have had boxers and labs - so I like dogs.
The pups might back off a bit if given a sharp enough kick to the muzzle/nose, but the big one almost certainly wouldn't - and anyway it's not the pups fault so I'd prefer not to hurt them.
If it was me and it got any more serious than what we saw - I'd be looking for a tree to climb.

It's more the pups' fault than the cyclist's.

pblakeney

...and it's more the owner's fault than the pups.
We all know who is at fault. The difficulty is getting the message through to them.

First.Aspect

It isnt the dogs' "fault" at all.

focuszing723

Like I said before, dogs should wear nappies and the feckless owners can sort the $h1t out when they home.

You can't possibly pick it all up when you bother to and for a good fifty percent
or more that's basically when you think someone has seen you.

focuszing723

focuszing723

Do the right thing.

DeVlaeminck

In the vid given they've got 3 Malinois. 95% of Malinois are from working lines - either actual police type work or bite/protection sport so I'd guess these people probably do some kind of dog sport with them.

Does the guy actually get bitten do we know - there are too many comments to read through ?

It does highlight the responsibility of owning a largish high energy dog of that type. I've got 2 Belgian Shepherds myself but mine are the show bred varieties so tend to be a little bit less full on - the younger one is 9 months and I'm very wary about where I let her off even though we do obedience type classes
- generally around other dog owners so she can have a play/socialise without me worrying she'll knock a kid over or chase a jogger - the older one is nearly 15 and has a balance problem so she isn't going to chase anything.

surrey_commuter

Having been around you people for several years and knowing how you tend to think on issues I am struck by the similarity of your dog defence to the NRA defence of gun ownership.

"guns don't kill people, people kill people"

kingstongraham

DeVlaeminck said:

In the vid given they've got 3 Malinois. 95% of Malinois are from working lines - either actual police type work or bite/protection sport so I'd guess these people probably do some kind of dog sport with them.

Does the guy actually get bitten do we know - there are too many comments to read through ?

This is in the description of the video: "Over £200 of my riding gear was wrecked and I received multiple bites causing puncture wounds and severe bruising. As it was really cold I had a lot of layers on which is lucky or this could have been a lot worse. Plus the cold had made me quite numb so it only began to really hurt later once I'd warmed up. I've had to have a tetanus shot and anti-biotics and am having to take time off work."

pangolin

DeVlaeminck said:

In the vid given they've got 3 Malinois. 95% of Malinois are from working lines - either actual police type work or bite/protection sport so I'd guess these people probably do some kind of dog sport with them.

Does the guy actually get bitten do we know - there are too many comments to read through ?

It does highlight the responsibility of owning a largish high energy dog of that type. I've got 2 Belgian Shepherds myself but mine are the show bred varieties so tend to be a little bit less full on - the younger one is 9 months and I'm very wary about where I let her off even though we do obedience type classes
- generally around other dog owners so she can have a play/socialise without me worrying she'll knock a kid over or chase a jogger - the older one is nearly 15 and has a balance problem so she isn't going to chase anything.

Yeah he gets bitten, this is his text under the video:

I was going to blur out the faces but f*ck these people. I was out riding, just exploring at the weekend when this happened. Over £200 of my riding gear was wrecked and I received multiple bites causing puncture wounds and severe bruising. As it was really cold I had a lot of layers on which is lucky or this could have been a lot worse. Plus the cold had made me quite numb so it only began to really hurt later once I'd warmed up. I've had to have a tetanus shot and anti-biotics and am having to take time off work.

Up until this point, I'd never really given dogs a second thought while riding. I love dogs, and knew that I should try to stay calm and still when they ran up to me hoping they were just excited and might jump up and be playful.

Nope. They almost immediately started biting me. I tried not to pull away or run and still tried to stay calm, which is kind of hard when you're being chewed on, hoping that they would back off once they realised I wasn't a threat and the owners would get them under control quickly.

Well, you can see what happened. I was very tempted to put the Benny Hill "Yakety Sax" music over this but I thought it might detract from the gravity of the situation.

If you're a rider: Assume all unleashed dogs are a potential threat.

If you're a dog owner: Keep your dogs on leads. And pick up their sh*t while you're at it.

Pross

DeVlaeminck said:

In the vid given they've got 3 Malinois. 95% of Malinois are from working lines - either actual police type work or bite/protection sport so I'd guess these people probably do some kind of dog sport with them.

Does the guy actually get bitten do we know - there are too many comments to read through ?

It does highlight the responsibility of owning a largish high energy dog of that type. I've got 2 Belgian Shepherds myself but mine are the show bred varieties so tend to be a little bit less full on - the younger one is 9 months and I'm very wary about where I let her off even though we do obedience type classes
- generally around other dog owners so she can have a play/socialise without me worrying she'll knock a kid over or chase a jogger - the older one is nearly 15 and has a balance problem so she isn't going to chase anything.

He mentions that he was. Think he said not too much physical damage as he had quite a few layers on but kit was shredded.

As you say, with large dogs you really can't take the risk. Even if someone else's dog runs up to yours and gets bitten the finger gets pointed at you. Mine is great with training in a controlled environment and picks things up really quickly but as soon as there are distractions it becomes far more hit and miss. I'm thinking of muzzle training him, it's really not something I want to do but would rather that than have someone claim he's bitten them or their dog. I've also started to consider wearing a body camera after having several unsupervised dogs run up to him then give a yelp and run off crying when he reacts (he's never actually bitten one, I think it's just fright).

First.Aspect

surrey_commuter said:

Having been around you people for several years and knowing how you tend to think on issues I am struck by the similarity of your dog defence to the NRA defence of gun ownership.

"guns don't kill people, people kill people"

I'm struggling to argue against this, other than to point out the many orders of magnitude difference between the two problems you are trying to compare.

Annually at least one person is killed by collision with a cyclist. Cycling is therefore indefensible?

surrey_commuter

First.Aspect said:

surrey_commuter said:

Having been around you people for several years and knowing how you tend to think on issues I am struck by the similarity of your dog defence to the NRA defence of gun ownership.

"guns don't kill people, people kill people"

I'm struggling to argue against this, other than to point out the many orders of magnitude difference between the two problems you are trying to compare.

Annually at least one person is killed by collision with a cyclist. Cycling is therefore indefensible?

Maybe the solution is for everybody to have a malinois that can defend them if they get attacked

from memory very few people were killed by legally held guns and there banning was seen as disproportionate and unfair on responsible gun owners.

TheBigBean

I don't understand the advice to get off the bike. I understand dogs can be quicker than cyclists, but they are ultimately defending something, so are likely to be far happier when you have left their turf.

First.Aspect

surrey_commuter said:

First.Aspect said:

surrey_commuter said:

Having been around you people for several years and knowing how you tend to think on issues I am struck by the similarity of your dog defence to the NRA defence of gun ownership.

"guns don't kill people, people kill people"

I'm struggling to argue against this, other than to point out the many orders of magnitude difference between the two problems you are trying to compare.

Annually at least one person is killed by collision with a cyclist. Cycling is therefore indefensible?

Maybe the solution is for everybody to have a malinois that can defend them if they get attacked

from memory very few people were killed by legally held guns and there banning was seen as disproportionate and unfair on responsible gun owners.

Well you've spotted at least one difference from the NRAs argumentation, at least.

What is "very few" out of interest? And is there an analogue of illegal unlicensed attack companion animals used in gang warfare?

Pross

surrey_commuter said:

Having been around you people for several years and knowing how you tend to think on issues I am struck by the similarity of your dog defence to the NRA defence of gun ownership.

"guns don't kill people, people kill people"

I'd be quite happy for legislation to be tightened up in both cases without an outright ban on ownership of either. I'd start by dogs needing to be kept on a lead in public places (maybe have some specific enclosed areas where leads aren't required that people can then choose to avoid). I may be misremebering but when I was a kid it was rare to see dogs being allowed to run free whereas it now seems to be the norm as soon as people are away from a road.

TheBigBean

I used to see a lot of parallels between driving speed arguments and NRA ones.

First.Aspect

TheBigBean said:

I used to see a lot of parallels between driving speed arguments and NRA ones.

What, that 20mph zones are unconstitutional?

ddraver

surrey_commuter said:

Having been around you people for several years and knowing how you tend to think on issues I am struck by the similarity of your dog defence to the NRA defence of gun ownership.

"guns don't kill people, people kill people"

I don't know how different this is but IMO the punishment to the owner exists so that - if we use the video as an example - 2 people obviously totally unsuited to owning two Malinois don't get hold of them because they know the consequences

They can still have a dog, but they should be sure that they can control it.

Heck, maybe just get 1 Malinois FFS!

First.Aspect

ddraver said:

surrey_commuter said:

Having been around you people for several years and knowing how you tend to think on issues I am struck by the similarity of your dog defence to the NRA defence of gun ownership.

"guns don't kill people, people kill people"

I don't know how different this is but IMO the punishment to the owner exists so that - if we use the video as an example - 2 people obviously totally unsuited to owning two Malinois don't get hold of them because they know the consequences

They can still have a dog, but they should be sure that they can control it.

Heck, maybe just get 1 Malinois FFS!

What would happen in reality is the dogs are destroyed and the owners would be fined, but would immediately acquire new dogs.

surrey_commuter

First.Aspect said:

ddraver said:

surrey_commuter said:

Having been around you people for several years and knowing how you tend to think on issues I am struck by the similarity of your dog defence to the NRA defence of gun ownership.

"guns don't kill people, people kill people"

I don't know how different this is but IMO the punishment to the owner exists so that - if we use the video as an example - 2 people obviously totally unsuited to owning two Malinois don't get hold of them because they know the consequences

They can still have a dog, but they should be sure that they can control it.

Heck, maybe just get 1 Malinois FFS!

What would happen in reality is the dogs are destroyed and the owners would be fined, but would immediately acquire new dogs.

genuine question - what if that had been a toddler and it had died. Obviously the dogs get put down but what punishment is likley for the owners?

ddraver

One hopes that getting their own dogs killed is a punishment...

First.Aspect

Up to 5 years.

https://www.gov.uk/control-dog-public#:~:text=If you let your dog,unlimited fine (or both).

Needless to say, the sanctions are more lenient if you kill someone whilst driving.

Pross

surrey_commuter said:

First.Aspect said:

ddraver said:

surrey_commuter said:

Having been around you people for several years and knowing how you tend to think on issues I am struck by the similarity of your dog defence to the NRA defence of gun ownership.

"guns don't kill people, people kill people"

I don't know how different this is but IMO the punishment to the owner exists so that - if we use the video as an example - 2 people obviously totally unsuited to owning two Malinois don't get hold of them because they know the consequences

They can still have a dog, but they should be sure that they can control it.

Heck, maybe just get 1 Malinois FFS!

What would happen in reality is the dogs are destroyed and the owners would be fined, but would immediately acquire new dogs.

genuine question - what if that had been a toddler and it had died. Obviously the dogs get put down but what punishment is likley for the owners?

Worst case seems to be 14 years in prison https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/magistrates-court/item/aaa-owner-or-person-in-charge-of-a-dog-dangerously-out-of-control-in-any-place-in-england-or-wales-whether-or-not-a-public-place-where-death-is-caused/ but that is for high culpability. In most cases I suspect it would fall under the lesser culpability with sentencing being high level community order to 2 years prison.

In the incident in the video with the mountain biker it would come under this one https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/magistrates-court/item/aab-owner-or-person-in-charge-of-a-dog-dangerously-out-of-control-in-any-place-in-england-or-wales-whether-or-not-a-public-place-where-a-person-is-injured/ so probably a Band B or C fine (probably a week to 1.5 weeks 'relevant' wages) although it's debatable whethert you could say they tried to intervene so could arguably be a Band B culpability with 6 months' prison as a worst case.

laurentian

Pross said:

surrey_commuter said:

Having been around you people for several years and knowing how you tend to think on issues I am struck by the similarity of your dog defence to the NRA defence of gun ownership.

"guns don't kill people, people kill people"

I may be misremebering but when I was a kid it was rare to see dogs being allowed to run free whereas it now seems to be the norm as soon as people are away from a road.

Really?

Where I grew up (and still live), dogs were rarely seen ON a lead. People would just let their dogs out to roam around the village as they pleased, Mmny were working dogs of some sort or another, farm dogs would just hang around their "patch" and various areas of the village were the territory of various dogs. Where the twain met on the boundaries, there were often "turf fights" between them.

. . . the streets were full of dogshit mind you and there was the odd people biting incident including one on myarse when I bent down to tie a shoelace in an alley patrolled by a particularly zealous Jack Russell

DeVlaeminck

kingstongraham said:

DeVlaeminck said:

In the vid given they've got 3 Malinois. 95% of Malinois are from working lines - either actual police type work or bite/protection sport so I'd guess these people probably do some kind of dog sport with them.

Does the guy actually get bitten do we know - there are too many comments to read through ?

This is in the description of the video: "Over £200 of my riding gear was wrecked and I received multiple bites causing puncture wounds and severe bruising. As it was really cold I had a lot of layers on which is lucky or this could have been a lot worse. Plus the cold had made me quite numb so it only began to really hurt later once I'd warmed up. I've had to have a tetanus shot and anti-biotics and am having to take time off work."

Thanks - that's not great is it. There are far too many Malinois being bred - loads in rescues because the reality is they are a full time job. I'd actually support some kind of licence (as in test not just a yearly fee) for dogs over a certain weight.

DeVlaeminck

surrey_commuter said:

First.Aspect said:

surrey_commuter said:

Having been around you people for several years and knowing how you tend to think on issues I am struck by the similarity of your dog defence to the NRA defence of gun ownership.

"guns don't kill people, people kill people"

I'm struggling to argue against this, other than to point out the many orders of magnitude difference between the two problems you are trying to compare.

Annually at least one person is killed by collision with a cyclist. Cycling is therefore indefensible?

Maybe the solution is for everybody to have a malinois that can defend them if they get attacked

from memory very few people were killed by legally held guns and there banning was seen as disproportionate and unfair on responsible gun owners.

You laugh but years ago before cycling I used to do a lot of walking and farm dogs were an occasional hazard as a lot of footpaths near where I lived seemed to pass through farm yards - I was often glad I had a couple of staffies with me.

Pross

laurentian said:

Pross said:

surrey_commuter said:

Having been around you people for several years and knowing how you tend to think on issues I am struck by the similarity of your dog defence to the NRA defence of gun ownership.

"guns don't kill people, people kill people"

I may be misremebering but when I was a kid it was rare to see dogs being allowed to run free whereas it now seems to be the norm as soon as people are away from a road.

Really?

Where I grew up (and still live), dogs were rarely seen ON a lead. People would just let their dogs out to roam around the village as they pleased, Mmny were working dogs of some sort or another, farm dogs would just hang around their "patch" and various areas of the village were the territory of various dogs. Where the twain met on the boundaries, there were often "turf fights" between them.

. . . the streets were full of dogshit mind you and there was the odd people biting incident including one on myarse when I bent down to tie a shoelace in an alley patrolled by a particularly zealous Jack Russell

I meant on actual walks. There were certainly a lot of dogs running loose around the housing estates, less traffic to run them over. There used to be dog wardens too though and the local cop shop and a set of kennels for strays / escapees they rounded up.

First.Aspect

Why is it that stray dogs never seem to attack people? I've been in quite a few places with lots of them around and they don't seem to routinely eat babies or cyclists as far as I know.