Tourist Trophy
Comments
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Is it absolutely unthinkable to amend the course even slightly?monkimark said:To be fair, if you showed that graph in 2008 you could see whatever they had done for the last 3 years as a great success.
Like I said, anything other than slowing the bikes down or levelling the course is just tinkering around the edges.
World wars are a pretty good way of reducing fatalities in the TT but I don't that is likely to be universally supported as a solution. Apparently the petrol in the post war year was such bad quality that it slowed everyone right down.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Yes.rjsterry said:
Is it absolutely unthinkable to amend the course even slightly?monkimark said:To be fair, if you showed that graph in 2008 you could see whatever they had done for the last 3 years as a great success.
Like I said, anything other than slowing the bikes down or levelling the course is just tinkering around the edges.
World wars are a pretty good way of reducing fatalities in the TT but I don't that is likely to be universally supported as a solution. Apparently the petrol in the post war year was such bad quality that it slowed everyone right down.
Its the TT course. Its iconic, like Macau and the Monaco F1 borefest.
Tbh, they fo that yhey'll probably be more accidents as everyone knows the current course.
And anyway ehat sre they going to do - take s left by Annie's chip dhop instead of a right?
.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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So as someone who has seemingly never ridden a road race, what level of fatalities do you feel are acceptable before the death toll took priority over the 'iconic' status..??MattFalle said:
Its the TT course. Its iconic, like Macau and the Monaco F1 borefest.
Five is clearly not enough. What about 10....20....50....?
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Looks like TT organisers are starting an investigation into all serious 2022 incidents
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/northern-ireland/61788300
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I am sure with a bit of investment they could work out a safer course… maybe you can look at the ten most dangerous spots and have them non-timed, surely the technology is there to cut and paste bits togetherleft the forum March 20231
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Unfortunately, the IoM is not blessed with an expansive and safe network of major roads. Alternative routes would probably be worse than what they have now..ugo.santalucia said:I am sure with a bit of investment they could work out a safer course… maybe you can look at the ten most dangerous spots and have them non-timed, surely the technology is there to cut and paste bits together
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Dare I suggest moving the road slightly?imposter2.0 said:
Unfortunately, the IoM is not blessed with an expansive and safe network of major roads. Alternative routes would probably be worse than what they have now..ugo.santalucia said:I am sure with a bit of investment they could work out a safer course… maybe you can look at the ten most dangerous spots and have them non-timed, surely the technology is there to cut and paste bits together
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Did I see that they have moved one bit of road but kept the original just for the TT?[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0
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When the ladies and guys who do it say so.imposter2.0 said:
So as someone who has seemingly never ridden a road race, what level of fatalities do you feel are acceptable before the death toll took priority over the 'iconic' status..??MattFalle said:
Its the TT course. Its iconic, like Macau and the Monaco F1 borefest.
Five is clearly not enough. What about 10....20....50....?.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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I don't know the course well enough to be able to place all of these crash locations but there seems to be a pretty big spread of locations where fatalities occur, it's not as simple as cutting off a dangerous corner.
The location of the 2 fatalities this year was Ago's leap, which doesn't seem to have been a particular danger point.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Isle_of_Man_TT_Mountain_Course_fatalities
Also, as MF pointed out above, the top guys have spent hundreds of hours learning the course. They could tell you speed, gear and braking point for any corner on the course, if you change that, there is as much chance of causing an accident as preventing one.
From my casual viewing, you do hear the commentators talking about places that have been changed over the years - trees removal, road widening etc.
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Not from my memory of being over there. Admittedly it is over 20 years since my last trip (which, appropriately, was when I was designing a new highway scheme in Douglas). I don't know the statistics but I suspect most of the collisions are in the built-up areas. You'd be demolishing houses and ultimately the main purpose of these roads is to link the communities on the island.ugo.santalucia said:I am sure with a bit of investment they could work out a safer course… maybe you can look at the ten most dangerous spots and have them non-timed, surely the technology is there to cut and paste bits together
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That might be Governor's Bridge, which is a short slow section just before the finish. Not normally open to traffic IIRC.DeVlaeminck said:Did I see that they have moved one bit of road but kept the original just for the TT?
As for removing hazards - road widening, removing a wall or tree, straightening a bendy bit - not only would that come out a highways improvement budget, but it would have the effect of increasing the speed through that section and into the next. So you move the hazard onto the next bit. What do you end at? A circuit (they already have Kirby), an oval, a dragstrip (like they don't have accidents)?
Engine capacity matters not. In fact small bikes get the throttle pinned more. Joey Dunlop died (not at the IoM) on a 125.
How's about a high speed reliability trial. Say 120mph average (I know many of you prefer kmh but this isn't cycling and is UK
) to keep it interesting, nearest to that wins. Would that help? 0 -
Talking of Joey Dunlop.......
.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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Someone just above has just touched upon the issue - correctly, IMO - that it's worth remembering that for the majority of the year, these roads are just typical urban routes through villages, etc - where the overall objective is to calm traffic, not speed it up. One of the reasons why altering the roads to make them safer - or straighter - for the one month of the year where the objective is to go flat out - would probably never get through planning.rjsterry said:
Dare I suggest moving the road slightly?imposter2.0 said:
Unfortunately, the IoM is not blessed with an expansive and safe network of major roads. Alternative routes would probably be worse than what they have now..ugo.santalucia said:I am sure with a bit of investment they could work out a safer course… maybe you can look at the ten most dangerous spots and have them non-timed, surely the technology is there to cut and paste bits together
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What - you want the one group of people who are probably least qualified - and most personally/emotionally invested - to make that decision..? I think not.MattFalle said:
When the ladies and guys who do it say so.imposter2.0 said:
So as someone who has seemingly never ridden a road race, what level of fatalities do you feel are acceptable before the death toll took priority over the 'iconic' status..??MattFalle said:
Its the TT course. Its iconic, like Macau and the Monaco F1 borefest.
Five is clearly not enough. What about 10....20....50....?0 -
The least qualified to comment on their own sport instead of a bunch of people who know nothing about it?imposter2.0 said:
What - you want the one group of people who are probably least qualified - and most personally/emotionally invested - to make that decision..? I think not.MattFalle said:
When the ladies and guys who do it say so.imposter2.0 said:
So as someone who has seemingly never ridden a road race, what level of fatalities do you feel are acceptable before the death toll took priority over the 'iconic' status..??MattFalle said:
Its the TT course. Its iconic, like Macau and the Monaco F1 borefest.
Five is clearly not enough. What about 10....20....50....?
Seriously?
Everyone else thinks not.
#milk.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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I'd imagine it's more down to the IoM authorities and the stomach they have for it.MattFalle said:
When the ladies and guys who do it say so.imposter2.0 said:
So as someone who has seemingly never ridden a road race, what level of fatalities do you feel are acceptable before the death toll took priority over the 'iconic' status..??MattFalle said:
Its the TT course. Its iconic, like Macau and the Monaco F1 borefest.
Five is clearly not enough. What about 10....20....50....?
It's OK, MF has already proclaimed that it's iconicimposter2.0 said:
Someone just above has just touched upon the issue - correctly, IMO - that it's worth remembering that for the majority of the year, these roads are just typical urban routes through villages, etc - where the overall objective is to calm traffic, not speed it up. One of the reasons why altering the roads to make them safer - or straighter - for the one month of the year where the objective is to go flat out - would probably never get through planning.rjsterry said:
Dare I suggest moving the road slightly?imposter2.0 said:
Unfortunately, the IoM is not blessed with an expansive and safe network of major roads. Alternative routes would probably be worse than what they have now..ugo.santalucia said:I am sure with a bit of investment they could work out a safer course… maybe you can look at the ten most dangerous spots and have them non-timed, surely the technology is there to cut and paste bits together
, but thanks both for the more detailed reply. I wasn't necessarily thinking of straightening as this generally increases speeds in every day traffic. 1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition2 -
Its also quite expensive to start changing roads, knocking down houses and walls or moving fields..
The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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Matt's analogy is like the rugby player who has just been knocked out telling the medics to leave him alone as he thinks he's fine and wants to carry on playing.3
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The least qualified to make decisions concerning their own welfare. I've been at race meetings where the stewards decided to cancel the event for safety reasons (ie dust, injury, lack of safety cover, etc). Literally all of the riders (including me) always wanted to continue. With hindsight, the stewards were absolutely correct and the rest of us were far too emotionally invested in the racing to think rationally about it. So yes, the riders are generally in no position to make informed decisions about their own safety.MattFalle said:
The least qualified to comment on their own sport instead of a bunch of people who know nothing about it?imposter2.0 said:
What - you want the one group of people who are probably least qualified - and most personally/emotionally invested - to make that decision..? I think not.MattFalle said:
When the ladies and guys who do it say so.imposter2.0 said:
So as someone who has seemingly never ridden a road race, what level of fatalities do you feel are acceptable before the death toll took priority over the 'iconic' status..??MattFalle said:
Its the TT course. Its iconic, like Macau and the Monaco F1 borefest.
Five is clearly not enough. What about 10....20....50....?
Seriously?
Everyone else thinks not.
#milk
But I'm only speaking from direct experience, so feel free to disregard...3 -
Will do - thankyou.imposter2.0 said:
The least qualified to make decisions concerning their own welfare. I've been at race meetings where the stewards decided to cancel the event for safety reasons. Literally all of the riders (including me) always wanted to continue. With hindsight, the stewards were absolutely correct and the rest of us were far too emotionally invested in the racing to think rationally about it. So yes, the riders are generally in no position to make informed decisions about their own safety.MattFalle said:
The least qualified to comment on their own sport instead of a bunch of people who know nothing about it?imposter2.0 said:
What - you want the one group of people who are probably least qualified - and most personally/emotionally invested - to make that decision..? I think not.MattFalle said:
When the ladies and guys who do it say so.imposter2.0 said:
So as someone who has seemingly never ridden a road race, what level of fatalities do you feel are acceptable before the death toll took priority over the 'iconic' status..??MattFalle said:
Its the TT course. Its iconic, like Macau and the Monaco F1 borefest.
Five is clearly not enough. What about 10....20....50....?
Seriously?
Everyone else thinks not.
#milk
But I'm only speaking from direct experience, so feel free to disregard...
Club rider who's day job is a dentist desperate to do local 10 before going home to make dinner vs professional motorbike racer who knows the risks completely and whos life depends on it.
I can see where you're going with that..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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Well not really, or at all tbh.Dorset_Boy said:Matt's analogy is like the rugby player who has just been knocked out telling the medics to leave him alone as he thinks he's fine and wants to carry on playing.
Its why Moto GP, FIA the TT, etc, all have riders and drivers and manufacturers on the safety committees.
Who knows the tracks, equipment, bikes, etc best - the people who ride them..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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Your arrogance is beginning to show - you're now just dismissing anything that doesn't fit your narrative. 'Knowing the risks' really is not the point. I'm simply telling you that I've been in competitive situations where safety decisions have been taken out of my hands - and looking back they have always been correct.MattFalle said:
Will do - thankyou.imposter2.0 said:
The least qualified to make decisions concerning their own welfare. I've been at race meetings where the stewards decided to cancel the event for safety reasons. Literally all of the riders (including me) always wanted to continue. With hindsight, the stewards were absolutely correct and the rest of us were far too emotionally invested in the racing to think rationally about it. So yes, the riders are generally in no position to make informed decisions about their own safety.MattFalle said:
The least qualified to comment on their own sport instead of a bunch of people who know nothing about it?imposter2.0 said:
What - you want the one group of people who are probably least qualified - and most personally/emotionally invested - to make that decision..? I think not.MattFalle said:
When the ladies and guys who do it say so.imposter2.0 said:
So as someone who has seemingly never ridden a road race, what level of fatalities do you feel are acceptable before the death toll took priority over the 'iconic' status..??MattFalle said:
Its the TT course. Its iconic, like Macau and the Monaco F1 borefest.
Five is clearly not enough. What about 10....20....50....?
Seriously?
Everyone else thinks not.
#milk
But I'm only speaking from direct experience, so feel free to disregard...
Club rider desperate to do lical 10 vs professional motorbike racer who knows the risks completely.
I can see where you're going with that.
If you have more direct or relevant experience, then feel free to share it. I'm sure we'd all be keen to hear about it.0 -
Nope - no arrogance just being honest. Its what sn open discussion is.
And theres competitive situations - Cat 3 Sunday morning bicycle race - and doing the TT. I'd hazard a guess that the latter are fairly more focussed during discussions months before the race rather than Lewisham Wheelers on the actual morning of the event.
And yeah, considering what I do as a day job I may be fairly well versed with assessing risk on quite a high level fairly often in fairly stressful situations..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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I'm not sure of the relevance in comparing a 3rd cat cycle race with the IoM TT, although both obviously involve a risk assessment process prior to the event. Can you explain..?MattFalle said:Nope - no arrogance just being honest. Its what sn open discussion is.
And theres competitive situations - Cat 3 Sunday morning bicycle race - and doing the TT. I'd hazard a guess that the latter are fairly more focussed during discussions months before the race rather than Lewisham Wheelers on the actual morning of the event.
And yeah, considering what I do as a day job I may be fairly well versed with assessing risk on quite a high level fairly often in fairly stressful situations.1 -
We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Oh FFS, they're just people who ride bikes for a living, not demi-gods. People are rubbish at risk assessments as amply demonstrated in any walk of life. Major safety improvements only ever happen after a major loss of life that everyone has previously sworn blind won't happen. You can almost put money on the TT continuing until one awful year when some poor sod takes several people out with them and then everyone will be all 'how did this happen?'MattFalle said:
Will do - thankyou.imposter2.0 said:
The least qualified to make decisions concerning their own welfare. I've been at race meetings where the stewards decided to cancel the event for safety reasons. Literally all of the riders (including me) always wanted to continue. With hindsight, the stewards were absolutely correct and the rest of us were far too emotionally invested in the racing to think rationally about it. So yes, the riders are generally in no position to make informed decisions about their own safety.MattFalle said:
The least qualified to comment on their own sport instead of a bunch of people who know nothing about it?imposter2.0 said:
What - you want the one group of people who are probably least qualified - and most personally/emotionally invested - to make that decision..? I think not.MattFalle said:
When the ladies and guys who do it say so.imposter2.0 said:
So as someone who has seemingly never ridden a road race, what level of fatalities do you feel are acceptable before the death toll took priority over the 'iconic' status..??MattFalle said:
Its the TT course. Its iconic, like Macau and the Monaco F1 borefest.
Five is clearly not enough. What about 10....20....50....?
Seriously?
Everyone else thinks not.
#milk
But I'm only speaking from direct experience, so feel free to disregard...
Club rider who's day job is a dentist desperate to do local 10 before going home to make dinner vs professional motorbike racer who knows the risks completely and whos life depends on it.
I can see where you're going with that.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition2 -
The bottom line is the TT is about @10x more dangerous than UK based Road events like the Ulster gp or the northwest 200 ( where is a real race and not a time trail ) But the the fact that the Isle of Man is separate to the uk means it’s will continue as it’s so important to the economy of the island, what ever we post on this forum .Van Nicholas Ventus
Rose Xeon RS1 -
155 fatalities in 115 editions of the TT.
Some say unacceptable but then we live in a world where elf n safety (or at least the interpretation of the rules) has stifled our existences from the Egg and spoon race to a fireman who climbed down a cliff to rescue an 11 year old girl from a cliff edge (successfully) and faced a disciplinary because he didn't follow protocol.
So many facets of life have been sanitised. On top of this, you can get injury compensation and there's this pervading culture of blame or, it's someone's responsibility.
Then you have the TT. Every competitor knows they are risking their lives. You won't see the Marquez's and the Rossi's or the Biaggi's at the TT but the guys who do it have balls and skill.
Who are we to say that the TT is too risky and by that token we remove those consenting competitors the right to risk their own lives in the pursuit of a TT win (in whatever class)?
Because we, the death fearing square pants middle classes decide it's too dangerous?
Mountain climbing is dangerous but no one has said people are not allowed to climb K2 or Everest or the Eiger or freeclimb some sheer rock face somewhere.
Rugby has amongst the highest number of paralysis and the highest proportionately than in any other sport.
Let's ban or sanitise Rugby? (It's got worse since turning pro).
Live. Stop merely existing.seanoconn - gruagach craic!1
