Tourist Trophy

Pross

rjsterry said:

If the problem is the lack of safety measures on the course - a bit of red and white paint - what's the justification for not investing some of the income from the race into adding the odd gravel trap or whatever?

Not sure there is space in many of the key locations, there are houses within a couple of metres in some of the bends. The road is also in normal use for 50 weeks or so each year so you still need things like kerbed footways.

If I was designing most of those roads from scratch today virtually the whole lot would need to be completely remodelled even for everyday use. You might get to keep things as they are in the villages with 30mph limits but any sections being designed for 50mph would have all the instructions moved back and made passively safe or there would be safety fencing everywhere.

I don't get the appeal but for me the key is those taking part understand and accept the risk. I'm not sure how much checking of rider competence there is though.

MattFalle

rjsterry said:

If the problem is the lack of safety measures on the course - a bit of red and white paint - what's the justification for not investing some of the income from the race into adding the odd gravel trap or whatever?

Because its road racing.

Racing on the roads.

Its in the name.

If you want to be putting gravel traps etc in you obviously aren't getting it.

MattFalle

rjsterry said:

Not sure what is romantic about scraping bits of person off a tree but each to their own.

You obviously don't get it.

Its roadracing.

imposter2.0

MattFalle said:

rjsterry said:

If the problem is the lack of safety measures on the course - a bit of red and white paint - what's the justification for not investing some of the income from the race into adding the odd gravel trap or whatever?

Because its road racing.

Racing on the roads.

Its in the name.

If you want to be putting gravel traps etc in you obviously aren't getting it.

I think that is understood. It's road racing.

But events like the NW200 claim significantly fewer lives ('only' 16 in the last 83 years) than the TT, despite similar average speeds.

imposter2.0

Pross said:

I'm not sure how much checking of rider competence there is though.

A rider's competence will be implicit in their racing licence status. I'm not sure of the exact spec, but I would imagine you would need an FIM international licence or at least ACU expert status in order to be accepted. A bit like 1st cat/Elite (or above) level in cycling terms.

rjsterry

MattFalle said:

rjsterry said:

Not sure what is romantic about scraping bits of person off a tree but each to their own.

You obviously don't get it.

Its roadracing.

Well, obviously not. Not sure that two word reply is going to enlighten me either. I think people just like the adrenaline hit, either directly or vicariously, and all the died-doing-what-he-loved bollox is just post-rationalisation. If the risk of death is really part of the allure, you are effectively saying that they *need* to have a handful of corpses each year to maintain the thrill. Seems a bit grim if you ask me, albeit intriguing.

gethinceri

280 deaths in 110 years.
They don’t “need to have a handful of corpses each year”, there just are, they’re not “to maintain the thrill”.

rjsterry

gethinceri said:

280 deaths in 110 years.
They don’t “need to have a handful of corpses each year”, there just are, they’re not “to maintain the thrill”.

You're right 280/110 is about half a handful. Someone was saying it wouldn't be the same without the risk. If it was zero in 110 years there wouldn't be that risk. Either way makes no odds to me. Just a bit of sh*t job having to clean up the mess.

Pross

imposter2.0 said:

Pross said:

I'm not sure how much checking of rider competence there is though.

A rider's competence will be implicit in their racing licence status. I'm not sure of the exact spec, but I would imagine you would need an FIM international licence or at least ACU expert status in order to be accepted. A bit like 1st cat/Elite (or above) level in cycling terms.

Do they have a specific licence for road racing? I assume road racing has its own set of challenges e.g. the short bit I saw yesterday had bikes getting quite a bit of air over crest curves not designed for vehicles to travel over at well in excess of 100mph with a few sketchy moments on landing.

MattFalle

Pross said:

imposter2.0 said:

Pross said:

I'm not sure how much checking of rider competence there is though.

A rider's competence will be implicit in their racing licence status. I'm not sure of the exact spec, but I would imagine you would need an FIM international licence or at least ACU expert status in order to be accepted. A bit like 1st cat/Elite (or above) level in cycling terms.

Do they have a specific licence for road racing? I assume road racing has its own set of challenges e.g. the short bit I saw yesterday had bikes getting quite a bit of air over crest curves not designed for vehicles to travel over at well in excess of 100mph with a few sketchy moments on landing.

Yes, they do.

monkimark

The TT also has a separate license required to compete and you have competed in a certain number of road races this year and got within 10% or so of the winners time to get the license.

The license doesn't guarantee a place either - i seem to remember that newcomers have to have a decent result in the Manx GP to stand a chance of getting in to the TT.

MattFalle

Yup - background for the guys and ladies doing it is m/bike racing for years, track and road racing background, hi climbs, sprints, motocross, Manx GP, Irish roads, Scarborough, etc, then they have to earn their starting spot.

They're not just a bunch of choppers turning up and hacking off - they know exactly what they are doing, know every inch and every turn of the circuit.

They're highly professional, highly fit people who have balls/ovaries the size of elephants.

What looks sketchy to Pross et al isn't - they all know exactly what they are doing and to say different is insulting to them.

kingstongraham

So it's just random which of them die on the course each year?

MattFalle

No. They do a raffle at bbq on the first day.

Seriously?

MattFalle

Cat and Fiddle death counts.... don't see anyone clamouring to mess with that.

kingstongraham

MattFalle said:

pblakeney said:

imposter2.0 said:

pblakeney said:

but there is a point where the bikes are better than the riders.

It's not so much that the bikes are 'better' than the riders - ...

I will contend that any accident during the IoM is a rider doing something that exceeds their skills. Faster bikes aid that outcome.

Soooooo wrong.

Far too many variables, incidents, possibilities, and, tbh, to say that is actually quite insulting the people who have lost their lives.

Seems to be what you are saying here.

MattFalle

kingstongraham said:

MattFalle said:

pblakeney said:

imposter2.0 said:

pblakeney said:

but there is a point where the bikes are better than the riders.

It's not so much that the bikes are 'better' than the riders - ...

I will contend that any accident during the IoM is a rider doing something that exceeds their skills. Faster bikes aid that outcome.

Soooooo wrong.

Far too many variables, incidents, possibilities, and, tbh, to say that is actually quite insulting the people who have lost their lives.

Seems to be what you are saying here.

Sorry, you've lost us completely.

kingstongraham

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MattFalle said:

kingstongraham said:

MattFalle said:

pblakeney said:

imposter2.0 said:

pblakeney said:

but there is a point where the bikes are better than the riders.

It's not so much that the bikes are 'better' than the riders - ...

I will contend that any accident during the IoM is a rider doing something that exceeds their skills. Faster bikes aid that outcome.

Soooooo wrong.

Far too many variables, incidents, possibilities, and, tbh, to say that is actually quite insulting the people who have lost their lives.

Seems to be what you are saying here.

Sorry, you've lost us completely.

Surely if it's not a rider pushing beyond the limits of what they/the bike can achieve, it must be just bad luck if something happens that means they lose control and hit a wall.

They are amazing riders either way, but it seems a high price to pay for either a small mistake or a bit of bad luck.

rjsterry

Of course they make mistakes. They are human beings and we are famously poor at assessing risk. I'm sure they are highly skilled in what they do and make fewer mistakes than you or I would in that scenario but they still f*** up from time to time. Jeez, the nonsense people tell themselves.

Jezyboy

There has been lots of clamour for them to make the Cat and Fiddle a safer road.

Hence the average speed cameras.

Hence why the driving on it is quite pedestrian compared to Long Hill.

monkimark

Isn't cat and fiddle a camera controlled 50mph limit now?
I assume they have closed the alternate route loophole.

Pross

MattFalle said:

Cat and Fiddle death counts.... don't see anyone clamouring to mess with that.

No-one is actively encouraging people to ride at high speed on there though, quite the opposit if anything.

FWIW I have no issue with the TT, the people who are best at what they do always want to be tested to their limits and go into it knowing what's involved. The information on qualifying requirements was useful and for me that does the job of ensuring those taking part have the skills required. As I mentioned before, the year I went over there I was told the death rate had been higher amongst spectators trying to emulate those racing without the necessary skills (basically the same people that are killing themselves on Cat and Fiddle).

ugo.santalucia

Ultimately it boils down to who pays for the medical expenses and long term injuries of those who don't die on the spot. If entry comes with an insurance covering all medical costs, then fine, otherwise it is a small burden to society and needs to be made safer

DeVlaeminck

Yes "mad Sunday" wasn't it when the course was open for all the bikers over to watch the TT could have a go themselves.

I think they have made changes so that isn't quite as mental as it used to be - not exactly sure what.

ugo.santalucia

TheBigBean said:

I've learnt what TT stands for.

Yeah, confusing because the Tourist Trophy is also a Time Trail race

Pross

ugo.santalucia said:

Ultimately it boils down to who pays for the medical expenses and long term injuries of those who don't die on the spot. If entry comes with an insurance covering all medical costs, then fine, otherwise it is a small burden to society and needs to be made safer

I would have thought the revenue the TT brings the IoM Government significantly outweighs the cost to their health service. It is a huge earner which is why they are more than happy to shut down roads every year (they used to do the same for Cycling Week too giving amateur cyclists a rare chance to race on completely closed roads including the TT circuit).

rick_chasey

Curious how the sport covers the deaths?

I don’t follow motorbike racing, but certainly in pretty much any other sport on TV it’d be 80-90% of the coverage.

MattFalle

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rick_chasey said:

Curious how the sport covers the deaths?

I don’t follow motorbike racing, but certainly in pretty much any other sport on TV it’d be 80-90% of the coverage.

Its mentioned, respects paid, move on.

Its part of it.

MattFalle

DeVlaeminck said:

Yes "mad Sunday" wasn't it when the course was open for all the bikers over to watch the TT could have a go themselves.

I think they have made changes so that isn't quite as mental as it used to be - not exactly sure what.

They turned it into a one way system and thats it.

MattFalle

ugo.santalucia said:

TheBigBean said:

I've learnt what TT stands for.

Yeah, confusing because the Tourist Trophy is also a Time Trail race

Well, tbh it is a time trial.