Tourist Trophy

rjsterry

monkimark said:

Similar numbers die every year climbing everest, some stuff is dangerous and you can't make it completely safe without removing a lot of what attracts people to it.

That isn't to say that nothing is being done but it could be considered 'tinkering around the edges' of the real risks, which are high speeds and immoveable obstacles.
https://www.iomttraces.com/projects/page/sms-features-and-benefits/
Remove the high speed and the surroundings and you would de-risk it massively but also remove a lot of the appeal.

There are other road races with much lower rates of fatalities - I don't think the NW200 has had any fatal accidents in the last few years.

OK. So if you can't re-route away from the obstacles and don't want riders pooling round focus on ways to reduce the chances of death when a collision occurs. I'm sure that is a challenge but if the deaths *aren't* an integral part of the race, why not try?

MattFalle

imposter2.0 said:

MattFalle said:

imposter2.0 said:

I'm starting to see the same argument for keeping the TT as the gun lobby are using in the US.

"Yeah, people die, but I like guns, so let's not change anything.."

Thats probably the dumbest thing i've read in ages.

So you want to the ban the TT?

Ffs. Is this really the way people are thinking?

Can we all clamour to ban the Grand National please because horses die.

No - I don't want to ban it. I didn't actually say that. Or anything like it. But I would like to see some steps taken in order to reduce the number of people dying at it. The alternative argument - that deaths are a necessary by-product of the romance and tradition - is a complete load of bollox.

I wouldn't want to ban guns either - but I'd be happy to see some steps taken to reduce the number of mass shootings.

Hence the analogy.

Thats where we fiffer.

I'd wuite happily bsn 99% of guns tomorrow.

If anything is unnecessary its having a high calibre rifle/semi auto pistol in a metal box in your garage.

imposter2.0

MattFalle said:

Thats where we fiffer.

I'd wuite happily bsn 99% of guns tomorrow.

If anything is unnecessary its having a high calibre rifle/semi auto pistol in a metal box in your garage.

I'd restrict the majority of firearms as well - I didn't say otherwise. A complete ban in the US at this stage would be unenforceable anyway, given the numbers already in circulation.

But in both cases, the status quo is clearly not acceptable.

And yes - I would like to see restrictions - possibly even a ban - on horse racing, especially steeplechasing.

monkimark

That's what they are doing - click the link in my post

rjsterry said:

monkimark said:

Similar numbers die every year climbing everest, some stuff is dangerous and you can't make it completely safe without removing a lot of what attracts people to it.

That isn't to say that nothing is being done but it could be considered 'tinkering around the edges' of the real risks, which are high speeds and immoveable obstacles.
https://www.iomttraces.com/projects/page/sms-features-and-benefits/
Remove the high speed and the surroundings and you would de-risk it massively but also remove a lot of the appeal.

There are other road races with much lower rates of fatalities - I don't think the NW200 has had any fatal accidents in the last few years.

OK. So if you can't re-route away from the obstacles and don't want riders pooling round focus on ways to reduce the chances of death when a collision occurs. I'm sure that is a challenge but if the deaths *aren't* an integral part of the race, why not try?

monkimark

Don't get me wrong, riders still die at the NW200 but it's more like 1 every 4 years rather than 4 per year.

The course is a lot more open in general - it's the kind of roads I could see myself opening a bike up on. The IOM has loads of very tight urban roads that feel like they would be a 20mph limit but there are guys flying through them at 140. When you get out on the more open mountain roads, there's often a big drop off the outside of a corner

I guess the fact that the NW200 is a race (not a time trial) means that wider roads are required and you still get the excitement of the race.

Pross said:

monkimark said:

Similar numbers die every year climbing everest, some stuff is dangerous and you can't make it completely safe without removing a lot of what attracts people to it.

That isn't to say that nothing is being done but it could be considered 'tinkering around the edges' of the real risks, which are high speeds and immoveable obstacles.
https://www.iomttraces.com/projects/page/sms-features-and-benefits/
Remove the high speed and the surroundings and you would de-risk it massively but also remove a lot of the appeal.

There are other road races with much lower rates of fatalities - I don't think the NW200 has had any fatal accidents in the last few years.

This is the interesting point for me. Are the TT roads inherently more dangerous to race on or are there additional measures at these other races that the TT could look to introduce? My initial thought was that the TT might attract different riders who weren't specialists in road racing but from the explanation on qualifying requirements up thread it appears they are more stringent. I suppose another explanation could be that the prestige of the event might lead to people pushing that bit harder.

imposter2.0

monkimark said:

Don't get me wrong, riders still die at the NW200 but it's more like 1 every 4 years rather than 4 per year.

I mentioned this in a post the other day - 16 deaths in 83 years.

ddraver

Pross said:

This is the interesting point for me. Are the TT roads inherently more dangerous to race on or are there additional measures at these other races that the TT could look to introduce? My initial thought was that the TT might attract different riders who weren't specialists in road racing but from the explanation on qualifying requirements up thread it appears they are more stringent. I suppose another explanation could be that the prestige of the event might lead to people pushing that bit harder.

I remember seeing some pre-internet thing with David Coulthard and a MotoGP dude. Coulthard was talking about how the penalty for a mistake on a bike is so much greater. In a car - even an F1 car - you may have a calamity and lose a second in a corner. On a bike you make a teeny mistake and you get dumped.Have a look on Youtube at Marc...not Marc Madiot*....Marquez! to see someone who wins by pushing the envelope all the time. He has large run-offs to slow down in though rather than hitting someone's front door at 100mph.

MattFalle said:

Can we all clamour to ban the Grand National please because horses die.

I have far more sympathy for this. Dobbin doesn't know what he's getting himself in for...




(*Although I really want to see that now, ALLEZ MOTO!! *slaps fuel tank* ALLEEEEZZZ!!!)

monkimark

The hyperslowmo videos of Marquez cornering are insane - the guy is drifting a 250bhp bike at 180mph with his elbow skimming the tarmac
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd3H5PlVTyk

MattFalle

ddraver said:

Pross said:

This is the interesting point for me. Are the TT roads inherently more dangerous to race on or are there additional measures at these other races that the TT could look to introduce? My initial thought was that the TT might attract different riders who weren't specialists in road racing but from the explanation on qualifying requirements up thread it appears they are more stringent. I suppose another explanation could be that the prestige of the event might lead to people pushing that bit harder.

I remember seeing some pre-internet thing with David Coulthard and a MotoGP dude. Coulthard was talking about how the penalty for a mistake on a bike is so much greater. In a car - even an F1 car - you may have a calamity and lose a second in a corner. On a bike you make a teeny mistake and you get dumped.Have a look on Youtube at Marc...not Marc Madiot*....Marquez! to see someone who wins by pushing the envelope all the time. He has large run-offs to slow down in though rather than hitting someone's front door at 100mph.

MattFalle said:

Can we all clamour to ban the Grand National please because horses die.

I have far more sympathy for this. Dobbin doesn't know what he's getting himself in for...




(*Although I really want to see that now, ALLEZ MOTO!! *slaps fuel tank* ALLEEEEZZZ!!!)

Moto GP dudes tend to be in awe of the road racing guys - Rossi is a huuuuuge fan of it and has publicly said many a time that he doesn't have the cojones to do it.

A lot of the RR guys won't bother doing track as they say its boring...

ugo.santalucia

I am all for folks finding creative ways to suicide… it’s when it doesn’t go to plan and they end up tetraplegic that I have a problem with… it’s small numbers, but those hundreds of thousands could be spent better by the NHS in scanners etc…

MattFalle

ugo.santalucia said:

I am all for folks finding creative ways to suicide… it’s when it doesn’t go to plan and they end up tetraplegic that I have a problem with… it’s small numbers, but those hundreds of thousands could be spent better by the NHS in scanners etc…

Cool.

So we'll ban cycling at the same time as the other stuff you don't like then Ugo.

Parachuting and paragliding as well if I didn't mention them before. Surfing in case they get chomped. Using chainsaws.

Blimey, its going to be pretty quiet.......

imposter2.0

MattFalle said:

ugo.santalucia said:

I am all for folks finding creative ways to suicide… it’s when it doesn’t go to plan and they end up tetraplegic that I have a problem with… it’s small numbers, but those hundreds of thousands could be spent better by the NHS in scanners etc…

Cool.

So we'll ban cycling at the same time as the other stuff you don't like then Ugo.

Parachuting and paragliding as well if I didn't mention them before. Surfing in case they get chomped. Using chainsaws.

Blimey, its going to be pretty quiet.......

Eleven skydiving deaths in the US in 2020 - out of 2.8 million jumps. If they had a death rate as high as the TT, they'd do something about it.

ugo.santalucia

MattFalle said:

ugo.santalucia said:

I am all for folks finding creative ways to suicide… it’s when it doesn’t go to plan and they end up tetraplegic that I have a problem with… it’s small numbers, but those hundreds of thousands could be spent better by the NHS in scanners etc…

Cool.

So we'll ban cycling at the same time as the other stuff you don't like then Ugo.

Parachuting and paragliding as well if I didn't mention them before. Surfing in case they get chomped. Using chainsaws.

Blimey, its going to be pretty quiet.......

If an activity yields in excess of 1% deaths in the space of a few days, then yes, it should be looked at. I don’t think it should be banned, but measures should be taken to make it safer. The romance of dying in a competition is really a thing of the past. Even boxing got rid of the 36 rounds fights… and I am sure the current 12 will be revised further. Football and rugby are looking into head injuries… we are all trying to do things better, that should include the Tourist Trophy

MattFalle

imposter2.0 said:

MattFalle said:

ugo.santalucia said:

I am all for folks finding creative ways to suicide… it’s when it doesn’t go to plan and they end up tetraplegic that I have a problem with… it’s small numbers, but those hundreds of thousands could be spent better by the NHS in scanners etc…

Cool.

So we'll ban cycling at the same time as the other stuff you don't like then Ugo.

Parachuting and paragliding as well if I didn't mention them before. Surfing in case they get chomped. Using chainsaws.

Blimey, its going to be pretty quiet.......

Eleven skydiving deaths in the US in 2020 - out of 2.8 million jumps. If they had a death rate as high as the TT, they'd do something about it.

Whats the "ooooh, that hurts" injury rate?

11 is still 6 more than the TT.....

MattFalle

ugo.santalucia said:

MattFalle said:

ugo.santalucia said:

I am all for folks finding creative ways to suicide… it’s when it doesn’t go to plan and they end up tetraplegic that I have a problem with… it’s small numbers, but those hundreds of thousands could be spent better by the NHS in scanners etc…

Cool.

So we'll ban cycling at the same time as the other stuff you don't like then Ugo.

Parachuting and paragliding as well if I didn't mention them before. Surfing in case they get chomped. Using chainsaws.

Blimey, its going to be pretty quiet.......

If an activity yields in excess of 1% deaths in the space of a few days, then yes, it should be looked at. I don’t think it should be banned, but measures should be taken to make it safer. The romance of dying in a competition is really a thing of the past. Even boxing got rid of the 36 rounds fights… and I am sure the current 12 will be revised further. Football and rugby are looking into head injuries… we are all trying to do things better, that should include the Tourist Trophy

Which they are constantly doing as per MMs posts above.

imposter2.0

MattFalle said:

imposter2.0 said:

MattFalle said:

ugo.santalucia said:

I am all for folks finding creative ways to suicide… it’s when it doesn’t go to plan and they end up tetraplegic that I have a problem with… it’s small numbers, but those hundreds of thousands could be spent better by the NHS in scanners etc…

Cool.

So we'll ban cycling at the same time as the other stuff you don't like then Ugo.

Parachuting and paragliding as well if I didn't mention them before. Surfing in case they get chomped. Using chainsaws.

Blimey, its going to be pretty quiet.......

Eleven skydiving deaths in the US in 2020 - out of 2.8 million jumps. If they had a death rate as high as the TT, they'd do something about it.

Whats the "ooooh, that hurts" injury rate?

11 is still 6 more than the TT.....

Not sure you're following the argument here. Unless the TT has 2.8 million competitors every year, then your response is invalid.

Which is the greater percentage:

5 out of 'X' - where X is the number of competitors at this year's TT.
or
11 out of 2.8 million (which, incidentally = 0.0004%)

rjsterry

MattFalle said:

imposter2.0 said:

MattFalle said:

imposter2.0 said:

I'm starting to see the same argument for keeping the TT as the gun lobby are using in the US.

"Yeah, people die, but I like guns, so let's not change anything.."

Thats probably the dumbest thing i've read in ages.

So you want to the ban the TT?

Ffs. Is this really the way people are thinking?

Can we all clamour to ban the Grand National please because horses die.

No - I don't want to ban it. I didn't actually say that. Or anything like it. But I would like to see some steps taken in order to reduce the number of people dying at it. The alternative argument - that deaths are a necessary by-product of the romance and tradition - is a complete load of bollox.

I wouldn't want to ban guns either - but I'd be happy to see some steps taken to reduce the number of mass shootings.

Hence the analogy.

Thats where we fiffer.

I'd wuite happily bsn 99% of guns tomorrow.

If anything is unnecessary its having a high calibre rifle/semi auto pistol in a metal box in your garage.

None of it is necessary. Weirdly I had a taster evening at a gun club in my teens (pre-Dunblane) and had a go with a Colt 45 as well as smaller stuff. Not something I'd rush back to but I can see why people enjoy it.

MattFalle said:

ugo.santalucia said:

MattFalle said:

ugo.santalucia said:

I am all for folks finding creative ways to suicide… it’s when it doesn’t go to plan and they end up tetraplegic that I have a problem with… it’s small numbers, but those hundreds of thousands could be spent better by the NHS in scanners etc…

Cool.

So we'll ban cycling at the same time as the other stuff you don't like then Ugo.

Parachuting and paragliding as well if I didn't mention them before. Surfing in case they get chomped. Using chainsaws.

Blimey, its going to be pretty quiet.......

If an activity yields in excess of 1% deaths in the space of a few days, then yes, it should be looked at. I don’t think it should be banned, but measures should be taken to make it safer. The romance of dying in a competition is really a thing of the past. Even boxing got rid of the 36 rounds fights… and I am sure the current 12 will be revised further. Football and rugby are looking into head injuries… we are all trying to do things better, that should include the Tourist Trophy

Which they are constantly doing as per MMs posts above.

Is what they have tried working? It ought to be pretty easy to see if it is.

kingstongraham

rjsterry said:

Is what they have tried working? It ought to be pretty easy to see if it is.

The 5 from 2022 to be added on that.

monkimark

To be fair, if you showed that graph in 2008 you could see whatever they had done for the last 3 years as a great success.
Like I said, anything other than slowing the bikes down or levelling the course is just tinkering around the edges.

World wars are a pretty good way of reducing fatalities in the TT but I don't that is likely to be universally supported as a solution. Apparently the petrol in the post war year was such bad quality that it slowed everyone right down.

DeVlaeminck

kingstongraham said:

rjsterry said:

Is what they have tried working? It ought to be pretty easy to see if it is.

The 5 from 2022 to be added on that.

Whatever they were doing between 1939-1945 seems to have been pretty effective at cutting fatalities...

It's doubtful motorbikes would be allowed on our roads if they were a new invention, then again the same may well be true of bicycles. Matt has a point when he says where do you stop with banning things - the TT is an extreme activity but for example how many top climbers perish before their time - so it's extreme but not uniquely dangerous. Ban those things and something else then becomes "the most dangerous" activity and so on.

MattFalle

Question should also be who are KG et al above to tell RRs what to do?

monkimark

5 people die a day on UK roads, compulsory electronic speed limiters/recorders in cars would doubtless slash that figure but try suggesting it to just about anyone with a car.

I like watching the TT, as a biker myself I am astonished by the skill and bravery but it's never good to see someone dying for what is ultimately just a bit of entertainment even if it is 'doing something that they loved'.

I don't know what the solution is, if there was an easy solution I guess it would be solved by now.

kingstongraham

MattFalle said:

Question should also be who are KG et al above to tell RRs what to do?

Where have I said anything about telling them what to do?

kingstongraham

DeVlaeminck said:

kingstongraham said:

rjsterry said:

Is what they have tried working? It ought to be pretty easy to see if it is.

The 5 from 2022 to be added on that.

Whatever they were doing between 1939-1945 seems to have been pretty effective at cutting fatalities...

2020-21 as well.

ddraver

monkimark said:

5 people die a day on UK roads, compulsory electronic speed limiters/recorders in cars would doubtless slash that figure but try suggesting it to just about anyone with a car.

This is coming soon though innit??

Ok so they are overridable at the moment, but drivers still have to do it every time they want to break the limit.

imposter2.0

monkimark said:

5 people die a day on UK roads,

Comparisons with 'five road deaths a day', or climbing fatalities is comprehensively missing the point. The issue is the proportion of deaths in what is, after all, just a relatively small sample of a few hundred people.

It's not about 'banning it 'cos it's dangerous' - it's more about taking steps to address what is - in my view - an unacceptably high death rate among a relatively small number of motorcycle racers. The reasons for the deaths seem to be (and always have been) the unforgiving and inherent limitations of the course.

MattFalle

imposter2.0 said:

monkimark said:

5 people die a day on UK roads,

Comparisons with 'five road deaths a day', or climbing fatalities is comprehensively missing the point. The issue is the proportion of deaths in what is, after all, just a relatively small sample of a few hundred people.

It's not about 'banning it 'cos it's dangerous' - it's more about taking steps to address what is - in my view - an unacceptably high death rate among a relatively small number of motorcycle racers. The reasons for the deaths seem to be (and always have been) the unforgiving and inherent limitations of the course.

Why is it up to you as s non RR non biker to tell these people what to do/what needs changing?

Its a bit like me telling a jockey what to do when I have utterly no idea sbout horses

webboo

MattFalle said:

imposter2.0 said:

monkimark said:

5 people die a day on UK roads,

Comparisons with 'five road deaths a day', or climbing fatalities is comprehensively missing the point. The issue is the proportion of deaths in what is, after all, just a relatively small sample of a few hundred people.

It's not about 'banning it 'cos it's dangerous' - it's more about taking steps to address what is - in my view - an unacceptably high death rate among a relatively small number of motorcycle racers. The reasons for the deaths seem to be (and always have been) the unforgiving and inherent limitations of the course.

Why is it up to you as s non RR non biker to tell these people what to do/what needs changing?

Its a bit like me telling a jockey what to do when I have utterly no idea sbout horses

But you do tell clubbies off for their behaviour and suggest how they should behave yet claim to have never been one. Therefore you should have no idea about them.

imposter2.0

MattFalle said:

imposter2.0 said:

monkimark said:

5 people die a day on UK roads,

Comparisons with 'five road deaths a day', or climbing fatalities is comprehensively missing the point. The issue is the proportion of deaths in what is, after all, just a relatively small sample of a few hundred people.

It's not about 'banning it 'cos it's dangerous' - it's more about taking steps to address what is - in my view - an unacceptably high death rate among a relatively small number of motorcycle racers. The reasons for the deaths seem to be (and always have been) the unforgiving and inherent limitations of the course.

Why is it up to you as s non RR non biker to tell these people what to do/what needs changing?

Its a bit like me telling a jockey what to do when I have utterly no idea sbout horses

It's not up to me - I'm simply expressing my opinion.

I also don't know why you're assuming I'm a non-biker. I was riding and racing motorcycles before I ever started racing bicycles, as well as road biking from the age of 18. I was riding competitive motocross from the age of 13 through to my mid 40s and I've held ACU and AMCA competition licences. So even though I've never turned a wheel in a road event (have you?) I kind of feel qualified to offer my opinion as a competitor in another discipline where safety is also a key consideration.

rjsterry

MattFalle said:

Question should also be who are KG et al above to tell RRs what to do?

Matt, this is a discussion forum. No one is telling anyone what to do. It's nice that you've got their back though 🙂