Tourist Trophy

DeVlaeminck

So should time be called on the IOM TT - 5 deaths this year including a father and son in a sidecar combination.

I know it won't be stopped - presumably because of the economic importance to their economy - but 5 deaths in one 2 week sporting festival seems excessive.

I'm leaning towards the Guy Martin argument that the only people they are hurting are themselves - I don't think I could go over and watch it - but I don't feel I should have the right to impose my feelings on this on society. After all I tend to ride my bicycle sans helmet a lot of the time and some would deny me that pleasure for "safety reasons". Jesus Christ though in 2022 it (the TT not me riding without a helmet) does feel like something from a different era.

MattFalle

No. 100% not.

Personal choice to do it.

Iconic. Greatest racing event of greatest, bravest sport in the world.

And if you do, where are you going to stop? Irish roads? Macau? Slovenia?

100% utterly, totally not.

briantrumpet

Reading this, there might be a stronger case for restricting access to Mont Blanc. Maybe 100 deaths a year.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/07/why-is-mont-blanc-one-of-the-worlds-deadliest-mountains/260143/

But if people really know the risks and are happy to take them, then crack on.

MattFalle

What's the death rate on the Cat and Fiddle?

Don't see anyone trying to close that down.

oxoman

Sadly this year the sidecars have been hit hard currently 3 riders died and 1 seriously injured. Mate is currently placed 5th in sidecars as the passenger. Personally think he's a nutter.

veronese68

The riders are nutters, sidecar passengers are a whole other level.
A mate raced there once, apparently it's normal to get quicker over the 3 laps of his race as fuel level drops. He got slower as he was scaring himself witless.
But, no, I don't think it should be banned.

ddraver

A few deaths is almost the point innit?

Not my sort of thing but it's their choice and it should stay that way

Wheelspinner

There's a "Targa Tasmania" rally here which has had 5 deaths in the last two years, and is now under review whether to continue or not, primarily because the insurers are getting nervous.

Seems a shame, especially since the competitors themselves seem to be against canning it. They race, they know the risk, and the responsibility for the accidents is - ultimately - theirs.

briantrumpet

Wheelspinner said:

There's a "Targa Tasmania" rally here which has had 5 deaths in the last two years, and is now under review whether to continue or not, primarily because the insurers are getting nervous.

Seems a shame, especially since the competitors themselves seem to be against canning it. They race, they know the risk, and the responsibility for the accidents is - ultimately - theirs.

I think that, or someone suing the organisers for negligence, would be the most likely reason for its demise.

Wheelspinner

briantrumpet said:

Wheelspinner said:

There's a "Targa Tasmania" rally here which has had 5 deaths in the last two years, and is now under review whether to continue or not, primarily because the insurers are getting nervous.

Seems a shame, especially since the competitors themselves seem to be against canning it. They race, they know the risk, and the responsibility for the accidents is - ultimately - theirs.

I think that, or someone suing the organisers for negligence, would be the most likely reason for its demise.

They've been "lucky" here (for want of a better term) in that the accidents have not involved any spectators or officials. Had that happened I expect the race would be finished for good. As it is, the event this year was only held after extensive review of the safety guidelines and route planning provided for the racers, after three fatalities last year. And yet, it was the first day of this year's event that a crash killed driver and navigator.

briantrumpet

Wheelspinner said:

briantrumpet said:

Wheelspinner said:

There's a "Targa Tasmania" rally here which has had 5 deaths in the last two years, and is now under review whether to continue or not, primarily because the insurers are getting nervous.

Seems a shame, especially since the competitors themselves seem to be against canning it. They race, they know the risk, and the responsibility for the accidents is - ultimately - theirs.

I think that, or someone suing the organisers for negligence, would be the most likely reason for its demise.

They've been "lucky" here (for want of a better term) in that the accidents have not involved any spectators or officials. Had that happened I expect the race would be finished for good. As it is, the event this year was only held after extensive review of the safety guidelines and route planning provided for the racers, after three fatalities last year. And yet, it was the first day of this year's event that a crash killed driver and navigator.

There's always soul searching when a youngster dies doing Ten Tors on Dartmoor, and it's got close to being stopped, especially as the Army is the organiser.

TBH, if you were doing risk assessments, I don't think rugby would be considered a sport suitable for schools, if it were invented now, given the number of fatalities over the years, and high chance of serious injury (not to mention all the less serious ones).

But I think once you reach adulthood, you should be allowed to make those risk assessments for yourself, as long as all the relevant risks and statistics are well known.

ddraver

briantrumpet said:

Wheelspinner said:

briantrumpet said:

Wheelspinner said:

There's a "Targa Tasmania" rally here which has had 5 deaths in the last two years, and is now under review whether to continue or not, primarily because the insurers are getting nervous.

Seems a shame, especially since the competitors themselves seem to be against canning it. They race, they know the risk, and the responsibility for the accidents is - ultimately - theirs.

I think that, or someone suing the organisers for negligence, would be the most likely reason for its demise.

They've been "lucky" here (for want of a better term) in that the accidents have not involved any spectators or officials. Had that happened I expect the race would be finished for good. As it is, the event this year was only held after extensive review of the safety guidelines and route planning provided for the racers, after three fatalities last year. And yet, it was the first day of this year's event that a crash killed driver and navigator.

There's always soul searching when a youngster dies doing Ten Tors on Dartmoor, and it's got close to being stopped, especially as the Army is the organiser.

Wow, wasn't aware anything like that had happened...

briantrumpet

ddraver said:

briantrumpet said:

Wheelspinner said:

briantrumpet said:

Wheelspinner said:

There's a "Targa Tasmania" rally here which has had 5 deaths in the last two years, and is now under review whether to continue or not, primarily because the insurers are getting nervous.

Seems a shame, especially since the competitors themselves seem to be against canning it. They race, they know the risk, and the responsibility for the accidents is - ultimately - theirs.

I think that, or someone suing the organisers for negligence, would be the most likely reason for its demise.

They've been "lucky" here (for want of a better term) in that the accidents have not involved any spectators or officials. Had that happened I expect the race would be finished for good. As it is, the event this year was only held after extensive review of the safety guidelines and route planning provided for the racers, after three fatalities last year. And yet, it was the first day of this year's event that a crash killed driver and navigator.

There's always soul searching when a youngster dies doing Ten Tors on Dartmoor, and it's got close to being stopped, especially as the Army is the organiser.

Wow, wasn't aware anything like that had happened...

It's only been a very small number, normally involving swollen rivers and drowning. Last one was about 10 years ago, I think. I was liaising with someone from the Army about providing music at the finish line, and it was very much in their thoughts at the time.

briantrumpet

briantrumpet said:

ddraver said:

briantrumpet said:

Wheelspinner said:

briantrumpet said:

Wheelspinner said:

There's a "Targa Tasmania" rally here which has had 5 deaths in the last two years, and is now under review whether to continue or not, primarily because the insurers are getting nervous.

Seems a shame, especially since the competitors themselves seem to be against canning it. They race, they know the risk, and the responsibility for the accidents is - ultimately - theirs.

I think that, or someone suing the organisers for negligence, would be the most likely reason for its demise.

They've been "lucky" here (for want of a better term) in that the accidents have not involved any spectators or officials. Had that happened I expect the race would be finished for good. As it is, the event this year was only held after extensive review of the safety guidelines and route planning provided for the racers, after three fatalities last year. And yet, it was the first day of this year's event that a crash killed driver and navigator.

There's always soul searching when a youngster dies doing Ten Tors on Dartmoor, and it's got close to being stopped, especially as the Army is the organiser.

Wow, wasn't aware anything like that had happened...

It's only been a very small number, normally involving swollen rivers and drowning. Last one was about 10 years ago, I think. I was liaising with someone from the Army about providing music at the finish line, and it was very much in their thoughts at the time.

Edit... 13 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Charlotte_Shaw

briantrumpet

briantrumpet said:

briantrumpet said:

ddraver said:

briantrumpet said:

Wheelspinner said:

briantrumpet said:

Wheelspinner said:

There's a "Targa Tasmania" rally here which has had 5 deaths in the last two years, and is now under review whether to continue or not, primarily because the insurers are getting nervous.

Seems a shame, especially since the competitors themselves seem to be against canning it. They race, they know the risk, and the responsibility for the accidents is - ultimately - theirs.

I think that, or someone suing the organisers for negligence, would be the most likely reason for its demise.

They've been "lucky" here (for want of a better term) in that the accidents have not involved any spectators or officials. Had that happened I expect the race would be finished for good. As it is, the event this year was only held after extensive review of the safety guidelines and route planning provided for the racers, after three fatalities last year. And yet, it was the first day of this year's event that a crash killed driver and navigator.

There's always soul searching when a youngster dies doing Ten Tors on Dartmoor, and it's got close to being stopped, especially as the Army is the organiser.

Wow, wasn't aware anything like that had happened...

It's only been a very small number, normally involving swollen rivers and drowning. Last one was about 10 years ago, I think. I was liaising with someone from the Army about providing music at the finish line, and it was very much in their thoughts at the time.

Edit... 13 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Charlotte_Shaw

Edit2 - I see hers has been the only death, thankfully, but that was grim year for the attrition.

imposter2.0

IoM TT - perfect example of a classic road circuit being incompatible with today's high performance machines and the speeds they travel at. The very definition of a 'death trap' IMO.

Would I ban it? No - free choice n all that. However, I can see it getting to the stage where the IoM govt would have to do something about it. I can't see that happening though, as it's such a massive revenue generator over there.

If you were to put on a sporting event where you were certain that at least five people would die at it - would you cancel it or let it take place..?

oxoman

Thing is the original TT was on old slow bikes, bit different now. The sidecars are averaging above 115mph per lap. I think they might try and take some of the bad bits out, or try and level the lumps out a bit.

pblakeney

oxoman said:

Thing is the original TT was on old slow bikes, bit different now. The sidecars are averaging above 115mph per lap. I think they might try and take some of the bad bits out, or try and level the lumps out a bit.

Why not simply limit the HP/kg? I know. Technology moves forward and all that but there is a point where the bikes are better than the riders.

imposter2.0

pblakeney said:

but there is a point where the bikes are better than the riders.

It's not so much that the bikes are 'better' than the riders - you don't see five people dying at every MotoGP or BSB/WSB event. There is little or no margin for error on the IoM circuit. Hitting a tyre wall or a gravel trap at speed after a wide run-off is risky but survivable. Hitting a stone wall, or a tree, or the side of a house at the same speed will mean a life-changing (or life-ending) moment..

imposter2.0

oxoman said:

Thing is the original TT was on old slow bikes, bit different now. The sidecars are averaging above 115mph per lap. I think they might try and take some of the bad bits out, or try and level the lumps out a bit.

Slow (er) bikes or not, there's always been fatalities, ever since the first event in 1911.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Isle_of_Man_TT_Mountain_Course_fatalities

pblakeney

imposter2.0 said:

pblakeney said:

but there is a point where the bikes are better than the riders.

It's not so much that the bikes are 'better' than the riders - ...

I will contend that any accident during the IoM is a rider doing something that exceeds their skills. Faster bikes aid that outcome.

MattFalle

PB is talking tripe, soz.

These guys are ridiculously good and ridiculously brave. It isn't some hackers run what ya brung. Its not a club ride

They know exactly what they are doing and they know the throttle works both ways.

Its the TT - its iconic. Leave it alone.

MattFalle

pblakeney said:

imposter2.0 said:

pblakeney said:

but there is a point where the bikes are better than the riders.

It's not so much that the bikes are 'better' than the riders - ...

I will contend that any accident during the IoM is a rider doing something that exceeds their skills. Faster bikes aid that outcome.

Soooooo wrong.

Far too many variables, incidents, possibilities, and, tbh, to say that is actually quite insulting the people who have lost their lives.

TheBigBean

I've learnt what TT stands for.

imposter2.0

pblakeney said:

imposter2.0 said:

pblakeney said:

but there is a point where the bikes are better than the riders.

It's not so much that the bikes are 'better' than the riders - ...

I will contend that any accident during the IoM is a rider doing something that exceeds their skills. Faster bikes aid that outcome.

Really. What about accidents caused by equipment failures, or other forces beyond the rider’s control? Accidents happen in motorsport all the time..

DeVlaeminck

Accidents are usually down to rider error though - that's not an insult they are riding on the edge of their abilities.

monkimark

The guys in the 50s were pushing 100mph on bikes with drum brakes and mountain bike tyres, in the 80s they were probably doing 120mph on ridiculously peaky 2 stroke bikes. They have been hitting nearly 130mph for 20 years.
I don't think it has suddenly got more dangerous.

oxoman said:

Thing is the original TT was on old slow bikes, bit different now. The sidecars are averaging above 115mph per lap. I think they might try and take some of the bad bits out, or try and level the lumps out a bit.

imposter2.0

DeVlaeminck said:

Accidents are usually down to rider error though - that's not an insult they are riding on the edge of their abilities.

Accidents are really not the issue here. Accidents happen everywhere. But An accident at somewhere like Donnington, the rider would just get up and walk away. The same accident at Creg Ny Baa or Ballaugh would likely prove fatal.

Pross

imposter2.0 said:

pblakeney said:

but there is a point where the bikes are better than the riders.

It's not so much that the bikes are 'better' than the riders - you don't see five people dying at every MotoGP or BSB/WSB event. There is little or no margin for error on the IoM circuit. Hitting a tyre wall or a gravel trap at speed after a wide run-off is risky but survivable. Hitting a stone wall, or a tree, or the side of a house at the same speed will mean a life-changing (or life-ending) moment..

This. When I went over there and did some cycle races in the early 90s including the TT circuit itself I was amazed how few adaptions to the road there were to reduce risk (basically some painted kerbs and walls) then a few straw bails on the day. At the end of the day that is what attracts the riders in the same way rallying attracts certain drivers.

Another problem out there are the Wannabees out there spectating, I think the year I was out there the TT had been a week or two before and more spectators had killed themselves than those racing.

I'm in the they know the risks camp, it's not like they are going out on a circuit and suddenly finding unexpected hazards

rjsterry

If the problem is the lack of safety measures on the course - a bit of red and white paint - what's the justification for not investing some of the income from the race into adding the odd gravel trap or whatever?

ddraver

imposter2.0 said:

DeVlaeminck said:

Accidents are usually down to rider error though - that's not an insult they are riding on the edge of their abilities.

Accidents are really not the issue here. Accidents happen everywhere. But An accident at somewhere like Donnington, the rider would just get up and walk away. The same accident at Creg Ny Baa or Ballaugh would likely prove fatal.

You're both right.

The bigger issue though is that the skill/risk/reward/thrill/romance is in the jeopardy though.

Same with Paris Roubaix except the risk is a lot less significant, or the grand national except the risk is for the horse

You can go there, ride safe at 98% and come 17th. Or go 100% and risk going 101% with a terminal outcome.

That's why it is the event it is.