Cars, cars, cars...

Tashman

shirley_basso said:

I think the navy blue with silver 'gills' and cream interior looks pretty unoffensive.

I agree they are imperious, but also it is a pretty iconic car.

See, I think that looks hideous. Horses for courses I guess.

DeVlaeminck

They are hideous cars for people who want to

veronese68 said:

john80 said:

shirley_basso said:

wavefront said:

MattFalle said:

In a week I haven't seen on 4x4, SUV or other such pile ofshite.

perhaps its just a UK thang?

The UK is on a par with Germany for SUV sales, with other European countries selling 20-25% less (couldn’t work out if that’s because volume of new cars is lower or the appetite for them is lower) But In the UK only 3 of the top 10 new cars are SUV’s. The fiesta, corsa, and focus are still the biggest sellers.

I see the new Range Rover released this week is already getting rave ‘first look’ reviews. I think it’ll sell like hot cakes, despite its £85k base price tag. Quite how people afford that I just don’t know.

Probably just earn more?

I really like the current Range Rover - but like all of them, it is riddled with expensive defects. The new one appears to be a re-launch of the existing one, rather than a big evolution. Hopefully that will mean a lot of the reliability issued are fixed and / or the price of the current one falls through the floor. Even now you can pick up relatively clean examples of a 2015 car with 70k miles for around £30k

I will leave looking cool to others on this one.

This is the thing I really don't get. I just don't think they look cool, to me they look like someone is just bragging. The vehicular equivalent of Donald Trump.

Agree. It's a car that shouts I've got money and I want you to know it. If that's what people are after from a car fair enough though even then there are vehicles that would do that without looking quite as ugly.

pinno

john80 said:

shirley_basso said:

wavefront said:

MattFalle said:

In a week I haven't seen on 4x4, SUV or other such pile ofshite.

perhaps its just a UK thang?

The UK is on a par with Germany for SUV sales, with other European countries selling 20-25% less (couldn’t work out if that’s because volume of new cars is lower or the appetite for them is lower) But In the UK only 3 of the top 10 new cars are SUV’s. The fiesta, corsa, and focus are still the biggest sellers.

I see the new Range Rover released this week is already getting rave ‘first look’ reviews. I think it’ll sell like hot cakes, despite its £85k base price tag. Quite how people afford that I just don’t know.

Probably just earn more?

I really like the current Range Rover - but like all of them, it is riddled with expensive defects. The new one appears to be a re-launch of the existing one, rather than a big evolution. Hopefully that will mean a lot of the reliability issued are fixed and / or the price of the current one falls through the floor. Even now you can pick up relatively clean examples of a 2015 car with 70k miles for around £30k

They own them primarily through finance. A 7 year old range will be about a grand for every electrical fault requiring a new board. Mate had one and whilst he liked it and was an electrical engineer so could sort the electrical faults the mechanical aspects were also tough. A lot of the suspension components are getting on for bring commercial in size and as are the tools to do a basic ball joint etc. I will leave looking cool to others on this one.

But that is is.
They don't have built in obsolescence like some people think. I mean the engineering implications during design of such an idea is implausible. They just don't do the long term testing of engines etc that they used to because beyond 100k miles, there's no profit in longevity.

So, beyond the warranty period, don't have one unless you have deep pockets.
The money has been made before the warranty is up - servicing finance, purchasing price + residual resale value.
Wasn't it Ford (UK) who, in the 90's didn't actually make any profit selling cars? Profit was derived from parts and servicing.
I know from my study of the BMW acquisition of the Rover group, that VW Audi during their recent acquisitions then; 1990, 1991 Skoda, SEAT, did not make a profit in '96 and '97.

I don't think I would ever buy new.
Buy a brand new £20k car and then 2 weeks later, go back and see what the dealer will give you for it*.

*Current demand inflating car prices aside.

rick_chasey

First.Aspect said:

I really don't know why anyone would buy a brand new car. I've done this precisely once, because a LR dealer was offering a stupidly good deal to shift a car that had been ordered then cancelled.

Rest of the time I've gone for a 1-2 year old one that some one else has paid half the cost of. Who the people are who buy new cars and run them for such a short time before handing them back, I don't know, but I'm very grateful.

Aren’t you just buying previously leased cars?

My brother in law leases his fancy Mercedes - he picks the colours and trim etc and after a few years he hands it in and gets a new one for the same monthly fee.

briantrumpet

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

I really don't know why anyone would buy a brand new car. I've done this precisely once, because a LR dealer was offering a stupidly good deal to shift a car that had been ordered then cancelled.

Rest of the time I've gone for a 1-2 year old one that some one else has paid half the cost of. Who the people are who buy new cars and run them for such a short time before handing them back, I don't know, but I'm very grateful.

Aren’t you just buying previously leased cars?

My brother in law leases his fancy Mercedes - he picks the colours and trim etc and after a few years he hands it in and gets a new one for the same monthly fee.

The whole thing feels like a massive scam that is designed to get people into accepting massive financing costs to sustain an industry built on pointless production of very expensive shiny metal boxes that trash the planet. It's an manufactured addiction.

rick_chasey

briantrumpet said:

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

I really don't know why anyone would buy a brand new car. I've done this precisely once, because a LR dealer was offering a stupidly good deal to shift a car that had been ordered then cancelled.

Rest of the time I've gone for a 1-2 year old one that some one else has paid half the cost of. Who the people are who buy new cars and run them for such a short time before handing them back, I don't know, but I'm very grateful.

Aren’t you just buying previously leased cars?

My brother in law leases his fancy Mercedes - he picks the colours and trim etc and after a few years he hands it in and gets a new one for the same monthly fee.

The whole thing feels like a massive scam that is designed to get people into accepting massive financing costs to sustain an industry built on pointless production of very expensive shiny metal boxes that trash the planet. It's an manufactured addiction.

Only if you play ball.

He thinks I’m a mug because I paid for my second hand car in cash.

I think he’s a mug as he always buys everything on credit or just leases.

🤷🏻‍♂️

Because there is a shortage of second hand cars he’s been offered a brand new car, same spec, for less monthly costs so he can trade his existing car in.

(I should add he got the SUV version of his old car.)

briantrumpet

rick_chasey said:

briantrumpet said:

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

I really don't know why anyone would buy a brand new car. I've done this precisely once, because a LR dealer was offering a stupidly good deal to shift a car that had been ordered then cancelled.

Rest of the time I've gone for a 1-2 year old one that some one else has paid half the cost of. Who the people are who buy new cars and run them for such a short time before handing them back, I don't know, but I'm very grateful.

Aren’t you just buying previously leased cars?

My brother in law leases his fancy Mercedes - he picks the colours and trim etc and after a few years he hands it in and gets a new one for the same monthly fee.

The whole thing feels like a massive scam that is designed to get people into accepting massive financing costs to sustain an industry built on pointless production of very expensive shiny metal boxes that trash the planet. It's an manufactured addiction.

Only if you play ball.

He thinks I’m a mug because I paid for my second hand car in cash.

I think he’s a mug as he always buys everything on credit or just leases.

🤷🏻‍♂️

Because there is a shortage of second hand cars he’s been offered a brand new car, same spec, for less monthly costs so he can trade his existing car in.

(I should add he got the SUV version of his old car.)

Quite so. The whole scam has been normalised to the extent that no-one bats an eyelid, but viewed from the outside, it's ridiculous. People pay more for leasing a car than I paid for my mortgage. And the end effect (getting from A to B ) is, in essence, no different from my £700 Almera, which I hope will go on for about 10 years.

First.Aspect

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

I really don't know why anyone would buy a brand new car. I've done this precisely once, because a LR dealer was offering a stupidly good deal to shift a car that had been ordered then cancelled.

Rest of the time I've gone for a 1-2 year old one that some one else has paid half the cost of. Who the people are who buy new cars and run them for such a short time before handing them back, I don't know, but I'm very grateful.

Aren’t you just buying previously leased cars?

My brother in law leases his fancy Mercedes - he picks the colours and trim etc and after a few years he hands it in and gets a new one for the same monthly fee.

Sure, most people do this. But 12-18 months into a deal you are still deep in negative equity. And it makes no sense whatsoever cost wise to do and 18 month PCP.

I assume some cars are courtesy cars, some are people who can't afford payments.

shirley_basso

I bought a brand new car. Intially was looking at a Skoda Octavia estate - cost about £350/month + £3k up front. PCP deal over 4 years.

Reason being - we had a 2011 Polo and every time it went in for a service, it cost about £2k on repairs. We do a fair amount of motorway driving (3h to my parents, 2h to London and 10h to Scotland) so wanted something bigger for 2 kids and comfier.

In the end we paid about £25k for a brand new Skoda Superb with all the trimmings which works out around £290/month + £4k up front. Got a load off as it is ugly (white) and was end of line (the new one was identical). Current value estimate is about £20k according to Motorway. I keep thinking about trading it in - but for what? New one will be more expensive and identical, so going to buy it out at the end of the contract for well below the £20k above (I'm not sure what the number in the contract is).

The scam isn't the finance per-se, although it does amuse me that most of the margin is in the finance. It's the artificially inflated re-sale values built into the PCP deals where the OEM buys them back. In reality those values should be materially lower, but that arrangement helps prop up used car prices.



^ what's not to like?

rick_chasey

You’d look like a drug dealer, for starters.

First.Aspect

It is huge and shaped like a box with rounded corners?

---------

Fundamentally, you either like an upright driving position with your knees bent, or you like to have a lower position with your feet further put in front you you and your knees straight.

As a driver I prefer the latter. As a passenger I prefer the latter, because it is more like my sofa and less like my desk.

No amount of styling will fix the fact that all SUVs are the former.

rick_chasey

If you’re short you don’t have that luxury

First.Aspect

rick_chasey said:

If you’re short you don’t have that luxury

You can tape wooden blocks to the pedals. Worked for that kid in the Indiana Jones film.

focuszing723

Owwhh, look at that. Created by the greatest human being to have ever, ever walked the Earth *.








*And he's trying to save the earth!

focuszing723

Still like this though for chunky modern design.

Pross

veronese68 said:

wavefront said:

MattFalle said:

In a week I haven't seen on 4x4, SUV or other such pile ofshite.

perhaps its just a UK thang?

The UK is on a par with Germany for SUV sales, with other European countries selling 20-25% less

I'm a little surprised at that. Totally unscientific observations when on holiday in Europe it seemed the British, Italians and Eastern Europeans like the bling of SUVs. Scandinavians and Germans seemed to favour regular estate cars, although the scandi's often have a 4wd version.

My first thought when MF suggested it was a British thing was that when I visited Lake Garda the other week it felt like every car was an SUV (and were mainly Italian plates). Obviously a small sample size in one particular, and possibly self-selecting, area I know but they certainly seemed even more prevalent there to me.

dinyull

shirley_basso said:

In the end we paid about £25k for a brand new Skoda Superb with all the trimmings which works out around £290/month + £4k up front. Got a load off as it is ugly (white) and was end of line (the new one was identical). Current value estimate is about £20k according to Motorway. I keep thinking about trading it in - but for what? New one will be more expensive and identical, so going to buy it out at the end of the contract for well below the £20k above (I'm not sure what the number in the contract is).

Do you have an agreed price to buy out at the end in the contract? If not you may have to pay more than you think with the current second hand market.

We've just been contacted by the dealer we bought our's from, offering to buy it back with an extra few k back into the coffers. Coincides with grandparents car potentially being up for grabs too, so going to see how that plays out.

shirley_basso

@First.Aspect good points about the driving position. I'd need to give that some more thought - probably go on a 48h test drive and get some big miles under the belt. The Skoda is pretty comfy to drive and I agree I like the more laying down position.

As for the look - I guess it's horses for courses. I really like it! Probably prefer a more navy blue colour, though.

First.Aspect

focuszing723 said:

Owwhh, look at that. Created by the greatest human being to have ever, ever walked the Earth *.








*And he's trying to save the earth!

And how much is it, exactly?

dinyull

shirley_basso said:

@First.Aspect good points about the driving position. I'd need to give that some more thought - probably go on a 48h test drive and get some big miles under the belt. The Skoda is pretty comfy to drive and I agree I like the more laying down position.

As for the look - I guess it's horses for courses. I really like it! Probably prefer a more navy blue colour, though.

Seriously take into account every other road user thinking your a c-unit (maybe already used to that feeling with cycling).

I'm being serious. My dad has a Range Rover, and it seems to bring out the worst in all other road users.

focuszing723

Quick Google, starting price of a hundred and eleven thousand squids.

First.Aspect

focuszing723 said:

Quick Google, starting price of a hundred and eleven thousand squids.

That's disappointing.

First.Aspect

dinyull said:

shirley_basso said:

@First.Aspect good points about the driving position. I'd need to give that some more thought - probably go on a 48h test drive and get some big miles under the belt. The Skoda is pretty comfy to drive and I agree I like the more laying down position.

As for the look - I guess it's horses for courses. I really like it! Probably prefer a more navy blue colour, though.

Seriously take into account every other road user thinking your a c-unit (maybe already used to that feeling with cycling).

I'm being serious. My dad has a Range Rover, and it seems to bring out the worst in all other road users.

I have observed that most range rover drivers try to avoid changing speed, because it costs so much to do so. This creates the erroneous impression that they are driving at you as though you don't exist.

Do you think that's part of the problem?

dinyull

AlL CyClIsTs Go ThRoUgH ReD lIGhTs InNiT

First.Aspect

dinyull said:

AlL CyClIsTs Go ThRoUgH ReD lIGhTs InNiT

I didn't mean your dad, obviously.

shirley_basso

dinyull said:

shirley_basso said:

In the end we paid about £25k for a brand new Skoda Superb with all the trimmings which works out around £290/month + £4k up front. Got a load off as it is ugly (white) and was end of line (the new one was identical). Current value estimate is about £20k according to Motorway. I keep thinking about trading it in - but for what? New one will be more expensive and identical, so going to buy it out at the end of the contract for well below the £20k above (I'm not sure what the number in the contract is).

Do you have an agreed price to buy out at the end in the contract? If not you may have to pay more than you think with the current second hand market.

We've just been contacted by the dealer we bought our's from, offering to buy it back with an extra few k back into the coffers. Coincides with grandparents car potentially being up for grabs too, so going to see how that plays out.

I think it's a fixed price - the idea being that if it's worth more, they will pay more. If it's worth less, they will pay the fixed price. I guess we'll see. I don't really want to buy a new one, but I am pretty sure I am well in the black (green?) based on current market values.

First.Aspect

shirley_basso said:

dinyull said:

shirley_basso said:

In the end we paid about £25k for a brand new Skoda Superb with all the trimmings which works out around £290/month + £4k up front. Got a load off as it is ugly (white) and was end of line (the new one was identical). Current value estimate is about £20k according to Motorway. I keep thinking about trading it in - but for what? New one will be more expensive and identical, so going to buy it out at the end of the contract for well below the £20k above (I'm not sure what the number in the contract is).

Do you have an agreed price to buy out at the end in the contract? If not you may have to pay more than you think with the current second hand market.

We've just been contacted by the dealer we bought our's from, offering to buy it back with an extra few k back into the coffers. Coincides with grandparents car potentially being up for grabs too, so going to see how that plays out.

I think it's a fixed price - the idea being that if it's worth more, they will pay more. If it's worth less, they will pay the fixed price. I guess we'll see. I don't really want to buy a new one, but I am pretty sure I am well in the black (green?) based on current market values.

You will discover that it will be worth precisely the balloon payment. These are what set second hand prices, these days.

wavefront

shirley_basso said:

^ what's not to like?

I agree However the new one makes this look old when seen side by side. New one is very handsome.

Someone made a comment about no amount of styling will make a box look any less like a box - we’ll, you can, but the Range Rover DNA would be lost if you lose the rigidity of the character lines. Those bonnet castleations and windscreen angles, and short front overhang, long rear overhang are very important cues to identify this as a RR. They’ve found a sweet spot in proportion that works for the brand, so the new cars will be evolutionary rather than revolutionary like 911’s are.

IRL the surface sculpture between those main character lines is really fluid and elegant, and not at all box like. On the new car, they’ve cleverly used the rear lamp graphic to suggest a more curved body side to make it look less boxy. But they also need to maintain styling restraint. I think this new one looks classy, - it’s the slight negative perception of the brand that clouds our judgement rather than the car itself which is very well done.

focuszing723

The G-Wagon is a case in point with this very robust boxness design, but still seems to attract buyers. Then there was the hooha with the new Defender, which has grown on me (God it's a tall car, suv, offroader, city swagger veHICle).

focuszing723

Suzuki did a good job with the new Jimny, bet it's still good off road too at a good price.