Fixing the K.O.M. competition.
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The Tour is basically a team event, so I think a team jersey very legitimate. And being the best team at getting 3 of your members home, before other teams manage that, does seem to me to rewardable. Who wins it hasn't to do with team tactics, although some might like it to be – the GC is the reward for tactics.Dorset_Boy said:
Except Movistarr0bh said:
But no-one really cares about or notices the team competitionLanterne_Rogue said:The real competition that needs fixing is the team one. Bahrain-Victorious, EF Education Nippo and Ineos are the three best teams in the race? You're having a laugh.
The team event also carries more prize money than winning any of the green, polkadot or white jerseys, or than winning 4 stages. Only being in the GC top 4 at the end is worth more. Teams who do well in it wouldn't be at all happy if it went.
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True, though I think if they thought they could reliably put a French rider in a jersey...mididoctors said:
Maybe but then you get the virenque effect where you can win the jersey by mopping up points left on the road available to the peloton . You can win the jersey making minimal efforts out the bunch as the increased number of placings can leave points for the bunch . Hence why the placings were reduced in numberNo_Ta_Doctor said:
He was 18th the day before as well, but if you know you're not making the top 8 why would you ride for 15th when there aren't points for it?mididoctors said:
Where did poels come yesterday? Would he be in the points if it was scored to 15 places ? No he came 18thNo_Ta_Doctor said:
It is broken, not because Pog isn't the best climber, but because it's an alternative competition that got won by default.TheBigBean said:I don't think it is broken. Pogacar is the best climber and he has won the best climber jersey.
I can see some merit of having another jersey for breakaway riders.
There are other reasons for that - like the contenders splitting pts between them - but that was otherwise the sign of a healthy and interesting competition
The weighting is currently too far in favour of the GC riders, but was brought in to stop the riders winning the jersey on the strength of hoovering up a load of cat 3 and 4s.
I think extendeding the scoring places would go a long way to fixing it, sprints get 15 Placings, an hc only 8
But I'm not just talking about increasing the points positions on final climbs, they could be doubled throughout the race
It's a tricky balance. You want to reward riders that go hunting points in the break, but not if they sit up when the final climb arrivesWarning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
You are Movistar.Lanterne_Rogue said:The real competition that needs fixing is the team one. Bahrain-Victorious, EF Education Nippo and Ineos are the three best teams in the race? You're having a laugh.
Correlation is not causation.1 -
I like my ideaNo_Ta_Doctor said:
True, though I think if they thought they could reliably put a French rider in a jersey...mididoctors said:
Maybe but then you get the virenque effect where you can win the jersey by mopping up points left on the road available to the peloton . You can win the jersey making minimal efforts out the bunch as the increased number of placings can leave points for the bunch . Hence why the placings were reduced in numberNo_Ta_Doctor said:
He was 18th the day before as well, but if you know you're not making the top 8 why would you ride for 15th when there aren't points for it?mididoctors said:
Where did poels come yesterday? Would he be in the points if it was scored to 15 places ? No he came 18thNo_Ta_Doctor said:
It is broken, not because Pog isn't the best climber, but because it's an alternative competition that got won by default.TheBigBean said:I don't think it is broken. Pogacar is the best climber and he has won the best climber jersey.
I can see some merit of having another jersey for breakaway riders.
There are other reasons for that - like the contenders splitting pts between them - but that was otherwise the sign of a healthy and interesting competition
The weighting is currently too far in favour of the GC riders, but was brought in to stop the riders winning the jersey on the strength of hoovering up a load of cat 3 and 4s.
I think extendeding the scoring places would go a long way to fixing it, sprints get 15 Placings, an hc only 8
But I'm not just talking about increasing the points positions on final climbs, they could be doubled throughout the race
It's a tricky balance. You want to reward riders that go hunting points in the break, but not if they sit up when the final climb arrives"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
I don't.mididoctors said:
I like my ideaNo_Ta_Doctor said:
True, though I think if they thought they could reliably put a French rider in a jersey...mididoctors said:
Maybe but then you get the virenque effect where you can win the jersey by mopping up points left on the road available to the peloton . You can win the jersey making minimal efforts out the bunch as the increased number of placings can leave points for the bunch . Hence why the placings were reduced in numberNo_Ta_Doctor said:
He was 18th the day before as well, but if you know you're not making the top 8 why would you ride for 15th when there aren't points for it?mididoctors said:
Where did poels come yesterday? Would he be in the points if it was scored to 15 places ? No he came 18thNo_Ta_Doctor said:
It is broken, not because Pog isn't the best climber, but because it's an alternative competition that got won by default.TheBigBean said:I don't think it is broken. Pogacar is the best climber and he has won the best climber jersey.
I can see some merit of having another jersey for breakaway riders.
There are other reasons for that - like the contenders splitting pts between them - but that was otherwise the sign of a healthy and interesting competition
The weighting is currently too far in favour of the GC riders, but was brought in to stop the riders winning the jersey on the strength of hoovering up a load of cat 3 and 4s.
I think extendeding the scoring places would go a long way to fixing it, sprints get 15 Placings, an hc only 8
But I'm not just talking about increasing the points positions on final climbs, they could be doubled throughout the race
It's a tricky balance. You want to reward riders that go hunting points in the break, but not if they sit up when the final climb arrives
Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
You can't deny it though. A team competition that doesn't reward Movistar is completely jiggered.above_the_cows said:
You are Movistar.Lanterne_Rogue said:The real competition that needs fixing is the team one. Bahrain-Victorious, EF Education Nippo and Ineos are the three best teams in the race? You're having a laugh.
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Points should be awarded on how close your team name is to Movistar.Lanterne_Rogue said:
You can't deny it though. A team competition that doesn't reward Movistar is completely jiggered.above_the_cows said:
You are Movistar.Lanterne_Rogue said:The real competition that needs fixing is the team one. Bahrain-Victorious, EF Education Nippo and Ineos are the three best teams in the race? You're having a laugh.
Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
I think this thread has proved that no-one really likes the Tour.0
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Not guarantee of that . Virenque was that era and he won it with super lamo tacticsrick_chasey said:Bring back 150km of TTs in the Tour and watch the polka dot become relevant again.
"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
Decent climber though.mididoctors said:
Not guarantee of that . Virenque was that era and he won it with super lamo tacticsrick_chasey said:Bring back 150km of TTs in the Tour and watch the polka dot become relevant again.
If you want climbers to go for it and do well in the polka competition they need to not be GC contenders.
Else it is the suicide breakaway competition or it rewards the next climber - like it has the last 2 tours.0 -
I want a punchy competition that rewards bravery and tenacity that stretches across all phases of the race day especially in the mountains.rick_chasey said:
Decent climber though.mididoctors said:
Not guarantee of that . Virenque was that era and he won it with super lamo tacticsrick_chasey said:Bring back 150km of TTs in the Tour and watch the polka dot become relevant again.
If you want climbers to go for it and do well in the polka competition they need to not be GC contenders.
Else it is the suicide breakaway competition or it rewards the next climber - like it has the last 2 tours."If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
Best climber is a mountain TT"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0
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Why? If it's for the best climber then most years it's going to go with yellow - then people will stop riding for it and it becomes pointless.mididoctors said:
Just goes back to being the Mickey mouse jerseyDeVlaeminck said:Agree a jersey shouldn't be won by default.
Easiest solution just get rid of the double points for mountain top finishes.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
I guess what I mean is what has changed nowadays is the polka dot never wins.mididoctors said:
I want a punchy competition that rewards bravery and tenacity that stretches across all phases of the race day especially in the mountains.rick_chasey said:
Decent climber though.mididoctors said:
Not guarantee of that . Virenque was that era and he won it with super lamo tacticsrick_chasey said:Bring back 150km of TTs in the Tour and watch the polka dot become relevant again.
If you want climbers to go for it and do well in the polka competition they need to not be GC contenders.
Else it is the suicide breakaway competition or it rewards the next climber - like it has the last 2 tours.
I am quite happy for climbers to go out from the gun and because they can climb fast, hold the peloton off.
That is entertaining
Nowadays any rider with that capability is automatically a GC rider.
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jimmyjams said:yorkshireraw said:
Scrap White as Young riders as well - we're about to have the 3rd year in a row that it's won by the overall winner. Pog could take it for the next 2 years as well I think? The idea that U25s aren't likely to contend for overall so need a separate classification doesn't stack up at all now.
Seen it suggested elsewhere it should be best debutant, which would be one option and bring in an interesting mix of riders - including the odd 'journeyman' making his TDF debut at 31 etc, alongside new youngsters.
I like the idea of a debutant's jersey. And of scrapping the white jersey.
You'll still get people winning it by default and I don't really see what's relevant about it being your first TdF - you could have ridden the Giro 3-4 times - so I think I'd stick with Young Rider if it was a choice between those two.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
But what you want is riders that should be gc but lost time early or deluxe mtn domestiques that lost their leader switching to target it.rick_chasey said:
I guess what I mean is what has changed nowadays is the polka dot never wins.mididoctors said:
I want a punchy competition that rewards bravery and tenacity that stretches across all phases of the race day especially in the mountains.rick_chasey said:
Decent climber though.mididoctors said:
Not guarantee of that . Virenque was that era and he won it with super lamo tacticsrick_chasey said:Bring back 150km of TTs in the Tour and watch the polka dot become relevant again.
If you want climbers to go for it and do well in the polka competition they need to not be GC contenders.
Else it is the suicide breakaway competition or it rewards the next climber - like it has the last 2 tours.
I am quite happy for climbers to go out from the gun and because they can climb fast, hold the peloton off.
That is entertaining
Nowadays any rider with that capability is automatically a GC rider.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
Fixing the KoM competition suggests Vino handing over brown envelopes to his rivals when I read this thread title.0
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Pogacar won LBL this year, so that clearly needs fixing as well.0
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He was competing for that, not winning it by accident.TheBigBean said:Pogacar won LBL this year, so that clearly needs fixing as well.
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Deleted"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0
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Deleted"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0
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You have no idea his view on it. For example, when Froome won the points jersey everyone assumed he didn't care as he missed a place the day before, but he put the effort in and was high enough in the sprint.No_Ta_Doctor said:
He was competing for that, not winning it by accident.TheBigBean said:Pogacar won LBL this year, so that clearly needs fixing as well.
Also, Carapaz and Lopez contested the young rider jersey in their own private battle in a few GTs.0 -
Well if somebody is winning it and we don't even know if they're trying to then it proves the point that the competition is broken.TheBigBean said:
You have no idea his view on it. For example, when Froome won the points jersey everyone assumed he didn't care as he missed a place the day before, but he put the effort in and was high enough in the sprint.No_Ta_Doctor said:
He was competing for that, not winning it by accident.TheBigBean said:Pogacar won LBL this year, so that clearly needs fixing as well.
Also, Carapaz and Lopez contested the young rider jersey in their own private battle in a few GTs.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
Start every tour with a TT up the most horrible mountain possible. Whoever wins it gets the spotty jersey for the rest of the tour.
Doesn't animate the racing on a daily basis, but it'd be great fun seeing which sprinters survived to line up the next day.0 -
Trouble with TTs is that they don't include individual tactics or teamwork, whether mountain ones or flat(tish) ones; they only make the Tour start to resemble a series of football matches, in which the player who might win the Ballon d'Or, is primarily decided on a series of penalties, more than the 90 mins of play. A bit of a confused analogy I admit, but my gist should be clear. Without looking it up, I suspect what Indurain possibly did manage (and maybe applies in football to Ronaldo some years too).mididoctors said:Best climber is a mountain TT
Having said that, though, I did like the idea behind the mountain TT in the Tour de Suisse this year, because it included both up and down, while I'm also not adverse to the idea of several short TTs, as apparently happened in Merckx's day.
Then they sometimes did 3-4 TTs of only about 10 km length on the same day as a more normal stage, sometimes before sometimes after. Frequent short TTs would slightly shake up the GC competition each day (and the Polkadot too, if 1-2 short TTs were climbs), while having the TTs on the same day as a more normal stage would also test the riders in a different way.0 -
DeVlaeminck said:jimmyjams said:yorkshireraw said:
Scrap White as Young riders as well - we're about to have the 3rd year in a row that it's won by the overall winner. Pog could take it for the next 2 years as well I think? The idea that U25s aren't likely to contend for overall so need a separate classification doesn't stack up at all now.
Seen it suggested elsewhere it should be best debutant, which would be one option and bring in an interesting mix of riders - including the odd 'journeyman' making his TDF debut at 31 etc, alongside new youngsters.
I like the idea of a debutant's jersey. And of scrapping the white jersey.
You'll still get people winning it by default and I don't really see what's relevant about it being your first TdF - you could have ridden the Giro 3-4 times - so I think I'd stick with Young Rider if it was a choice between those two.
Well maybe go back to the idea of neo-profis (if I'm correct, those within their first two years of being a profi).
Not that I've anything against him, but I think Pogacar would then be out of the running this year, the jersey would go to someone else.
Also, as I wrote in a different thread when the same topic was addressed, whether Young Rider, Debutant or Neo-Profi, I would prefer to see it based on stage placings solely between those eligible rather than time – this differentiates it more from the GC, and also allows for the possibility that a 'new' rider may suffer the following day after a really good performance, but still not be out of the running (encouragement!)
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To fix it just adjust the points. Rather than double points on MTFs, just add the points from a category down - so if it's a HC climb, add 1 Cat points as bonuses. Maybe do the same for the high point of any stage. Ultimately we want to see a battle, not a GC by-product.Twitter: @RichN950
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I was being derogatoryjimmyjams said:
Trouble with TTs is that they don't include individual tactics or teamwork, whether mountain ones or flat(tish) ones; they only make the Tour start to resemble a series of football matches, in which the player who might win the Ballon d'Or, is primarily decided on a series of penalties, more than the 90 mins of play. A bit of a confused analogy I admit, but my gist should be clear. Without looking it up, I suspect what Indurain possibly did manage (and maybe applies in football to Ronaldo some years too).mididoctors said:Best climber is a mountain TT
Having said that, though, I did like the idea behind the mountain TT in the Tour de Suisse this year, because it included both up and down, while I'm also not adverse to the idea of several short TTs, as apparently happened in Merckx's day.
Then they sometimes did 3-4 TTs of only about 10 km length on the same day as a more normal stage, sometimes before sometimes after. Frequent short TTs would slightly shake up the GC competition each day (and the Polkadot too, if 1-2 short TTs were climbs), while having the TTs on the same day as a more normal stage would also test the riders in a different way."If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
So you don't like mountain TTs?mididoctors said:
I was being derogatoryjimmyjams said:
Trouble with TTs is that they don't include individual tactics or teamwork, whether mountain ones or flat(tish) ones; they only make the Tour start to resemble a series of football matches, in which the player who might win the Ballon d'Or, is primarily decided on a series of penalties, more than the 90 mins of play. A bit of a confused analogy I admit, but my gist should be clear. Without looking it up, I suspect what Indurain possibly did manage (and maybe applies in football to Ronaldo some years too).mididoctors said:Best climber is a mountain TT
Having said that, though, I did like the idea behind the mountain TT in the Tour de Suisse this year, because it included both up and down, while I'm also not adverse to the idea of several short TTs, as apparently happened in Merckx's day.
Then they sometimes did 3-4 TTs of only about 10 km length on the same day as a more normal stage, sometimes before sometimes after. Frequent short TTs would slightly shake up the GC competition each day (and the Polkadot too, if 1-2 short TTs were climbs), while having the TTs on the same day as a more normal stage would also test the riders in a different way.
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