Fixing the K.O.M. competition.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

Would it be a bad thing if every classified climb gets the same scoring system, rather than more points for bigger climbs?

And the the white jersey, allocate it to the GC rider with the least TDF experience, according to how many TDF they have entered before? So usually it would be between TDF rookies racing it for the first time, but you might rarely have no rookies but some riders who raced the previous season.

yorkshireraw

if KOM jersey is meant to be 'best climber', the question is how should that be defined - a race position over the top (potentially having benefited from being able to smash 100KM on the flat first) or speed up the climb?

Looking at Green (points) jersey - what is that meant to measure? It's probably a bit arbitrary, but if it's meant to be 'Most Consistent finisher' it doesn't currently do that.
Turn it into a pure 'consistency' jersey for lowest overall aggregate position across all 21 stages. So if Wout VA came 5th on every stage he'd score 105 points.

Currently it is more of a sprints jersey (even including intermediates) as Cav can get 4 first places, and a load of 150ish places and win it - not saying that's right or wrong, just a question on what it's measuring.

No_Ta_Doctor

Neither points nor kom is meant to be an award for the best in any particular category. They're meant to be entertaining competitions. That's why they fiddle with the weightings every now and again. The question isn't "how do we weight this so it goes to the most deserving rider", it's "how do we weight this so we see riders making an effort to win the jersey and give us a competition"

rick_chasey

No_Ta_Doctor said:

Neither points nor kom is meant to be an award for the best in any particular category. They're meant to be entertaining competitions. That's why they fiddle with the weightings every now and again. The question isn't "how do we weight this so it goes to the most deserving rider", it's "how do we weight this so we see riders making an effort to win the jersey and give us a competition"

Why bother having it related to mountains then? Bin it all off and create a new competition from scratch?

What would you go with?

No_Ta_Doctor

rick_chasey said:

No_Ta_Doctor said:

Neither points nor kom is meant to be an award for the best in any particular category. They're meant to be entertaining competitions. That's why they fiddle with the weightings every now and again. The question isn't "how do we weight this so it goes to the most deserving rider", it's "how do we weight this so we see riders making an effort to win the jersey and give us a competition"

Why bother having it related to mountains then? Bin it all off and create a new competition from scratch?

What would you go with?

Probably something involving mountains tbh. All the comps involve racing something, you either have some arbitrary lines (like the intermediate sprints) or some mountain tops. Other than that, what are you going to do? Longest wheelie? Biggest bunny hop?

I mean you could have some sort of strava segment style of comp, but that would be pretty rubbish and probably quite dangerous for the peloton.

DeVlaeminck

I still the the current system minus the double points for a stage finish works. That will usually take the yellow jersey out of the competition but leave us with a competition biased towards those who can climb well. It does also favour those good at getting into breaks of course but i am not sure that's a problem.

rick_chasey

DeVlaeminck said:

I still the the current system minus the double points for a stage finish works. That will usually take the yellow jersey out of the competition but leave us with a competition biased towards those who can climb well. It does also favour those good at getting into breaks of course but i am not sure that's a problem.

The reason the double points were added as some fairly poor climbers were becoming "KOM" and in cycling you have this weird dynamic that if the big riders aren't winning it, it's not a big competition.

bianchi_dave

Why not just take accumulated time over all the categorised climbs of the race? That way, the overall fastest climber wins the jersey. It may be the case the GC winner still takes it, but may be less likely? Seems the simplest and fairest solution.

rick_chasey

bianchi_dave said:

Why not just take accumulated time over all the categorised climbs of the race? That way, the overall fastest climber wins the jersey. It may be the case the GC winner still takes it, but may be less likely? Seems the simplest and fairest solution.

The way the course is designed that would almost exclusively be the yellow jersey.

You want something that sorts the wheat from the chaff but also something that is separate enough to not be won by accident.

DeVlaeminck

Also you could sit in the bunch and draft your way up some climbs much faster than someone out in front - and that isn't adding anything to the race.

kingstongraham

I don't think it's changed much since the days of alaphillippe, barguil, majka and bardet winning way back in 2016, 2017, 2018 and 2019. (And 2014.)

RichN95.

bianchi_dave said:

Why not just take accumulated time over all the categorised climbs of the race? That way, the overall fastest climber wins the jersey. It may be the case the GC winner still takes it, but may be less likely? Seems the simplest and fairest solution.

It's not a great format for the viewer. It would essentially be a battle only visible on a spreadsheet

N0bodyOfTheGoat

Bonus point multiplier for being in the top three over consecutive climbs in a stage?

TheBigBean

For those that think the competition is broken, why not declare who you think should have won this year, then work backwards to come with a method by which they would have won.

rick_chasey

TheBigBean said:

For those that think the competition is broken, why not declare who you think should have won this year, then work backwards to come with a method by which they would have won.

Poels or Quintana or one of those guys, for me.

bobmcstuff

RichN95. said:

bianchi_dave said:

Why not just take accumulated time over all the categorised climbs of the race? That way, the overall fastest climber wins the jersey. It may be the case the GC winner still takes it, but may be less likely? Seems the simplest and fairest solution.

It's not a great format for the viewer. It would essentially be a battle only visible on a spreadsheet

Could also create some weird racing if one team decided to seriously target it - in the extreme they could soft pedal between each climb and then do a train up each one... Obviously that's probably quite unlikely in reality but you would probably see riders taking the KOM like an ITT rather than actually racing and attacking each other etc.

rick_chasey

How about this.

KOM points distributed as they are now, without the double points at the MTF/last climb.

BUT - you have a "how many people are with you at the KOM line" modulator

You get:

100% of the points available as you cross the line if you are solo (so a timeable gap between you and the next rider)
60% for 2-5 riders in your group.
40% for 6-10 riders in your group.
20% 10+ riders in your group.

I've just made this up so there will likely be problems - thoughts?

So, picture the example.

Rider 1 crosses the KOM line of the Tourmalet solo and gets 20 points

Rider 2,3,4 cross the line in those respective positions, but they are in a group of 3, so they would get 15,12,10 points normally, but this time they get 9,7,6 respectively.

Rider 5 across the finish line is actually leading the peloton of 30 riders over the top so he gets 2 points (1.6 points rounded up).

You could maybe change the point available to avoid fractions.

ddraver

TheBigBean said:

For those that think the competition is broken, why not declare who you think should have won this year, then work backwards to come with a method by which they would have won.

This...

Once 'They've' decided what it's supposed to reward, the rest of the question is easy...

kingstongraham

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

For those that think the competition is broken, why not declare who you think should have won this year, then work backwards to come with a method by which they would have won.

Poels or Quintana or one of those guys, for me.

So what was poels better at than pog?

TheBigBean

kingstongraham said:

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

For those that think the competition is broken, why not declare who you think should have won this year, then work backwards to come with a method by which they would have won.

Poels or Quintana or one of those guys, for me.

So what was poels better at than pog?

He was better at not being Pogacar which seems to be a necessary attribute.

I think someone upthread suggested he wanted it more.

So, in summary, he wanted to beat the winner and was not the winner, therefore he should be the winner.

rick_chasey

kingstongraham said:

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

For those that think the competition is broken, why not declare who you think should have won this year, then work backwards to come with a method by which they would have won.

Poels or Quintana or one of those guys, for me.

So what was poels better at than pog?

Going up the road and winning sprints over the KOM lines.

rick_chasey

TheBigBean said:

kingstongraham said:

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

For those that think the competition is broken, why not declare who you think should have won this year, then work backwards to come with a method by which they would have won.

Poels or Quintana or one of those guys, for me.

So what was poels better at than pog?

He was better at not being Pogacar which seems to be a necessary attribute.

I think someone upthread suggested he wanted it more.

So, in summary, he wanted to beat the winner and was not the winner, therefore he should be the winner.

No, he went up the road ahead of the peloton and tried to bag as many points as possible, including sprinting against his rivals for the MTF points.

Pog won the jersey entirely as a side effect of trying to win the overall and stages. You want a competition that can't be "won by accident" if possible.

kingstongraham

The green jersey can be won by accident if you are the best at winning sprint stages.

pblakeney

rick_chasey said:

mididoctors said:

rick_chasey said:

mididoctors said:

rick_chasey said:

Bring back 150km of TTs in the Tour and watch the polka dot become relevant again.

Not guarantee of that . Virenque was that era and he won it with super lamo tactics

Decent climber though.

If you want climbers to go for it and do well in the polka competition they need to not be GC contenders.

Else it is the suicide breakaway competition or it rewards the next climber - like it has the last 2 tours.

I want a punchy competition that rewards bravery and tenacity that stretches across all phases of the race day especially in the mountains.

I guess what I mean is what has changed nowadays is the polka dot never wins.

I am quite happy for climbers to go out from the gun and because they can climb fast, hold the peloton off.

That is entertaining

Nowadays any rider with that capability is automatically a GC rider.

How about front loading the climbing stages right from the off and no mtf’s?

kingstongraham

No points for mtfs then? Then it's a climbing breakaway jersey, which is different enough, is a competition on its own and nothing like the gc or stage wins.

Not what I'd want, but is possible.

TheBigBean

One of the reasons for time bonuses for winning a stage was to incentivise the GC guys to try to win stages. So really Pogacar was only winning the stage by accident.

rick_chasey

No-one interested in my alternative competition?

kingstongraham

rick_chasey said:

No-one interested in my alternative competition?

Makes breakaway less likely to make it to the finish line. And really complicated.

rick_chasey

kingstongraham said:

rick_chasey said:

No-one interested in my alternative competition?

Makes breakaway less likely to make it to the finish line. And really complicated.

Well that's the trade off, right?

I guess I am trying to incentivise going up the road solo or at least breaking it up into smaller groups. Gives riders something to sprint for, and go from further out.

Pross

ddraver said:

TheBigBean said:

For those that think the competition is broken, why not declare who you think should have won this year, then work backwards to come with a method by which they would have won.

This...

Once 'They've' decided what it's supposed to reward, the rest of the question is easy...

It's been stated numerous times - someone who was actually riding to try to win it not someone who picked up points as part of their GC campaign. If Pog was deliberately riding to win the KoM as well as yellow then great but it was just a byproduct of wnning the two main MTFs.