Forum home Road cycling forum Pro race

Fixing the K.O.M. competition.

135

Posts

  • N0bodyOfTheGoatN0bodyOfTheGoat Posts: 5,160
    Would it be a bad thing if every classified climb gets the same scoring system, rather than more points for bigger climbs?

    And the the white jersey, allocate it to the GC rider with the least TDF experience, according to how many TDF they have entered before? So usually it would be between TDF rookies racing it for the first time, but you might rarely have no rookies but some riders who raced the previous season.
    ================
    2020 Voodoo Marasa
    2017 Cube Attain GTC Pro Disc 2016
    2016 Voodoo Wazoo
  • yorkshirerawyorkshireraw Posts: 1,609
    if KOM jersey is meant to be 'best climber', the question is how should that be defined - a race position over the top (potentially having benefited from being able to smash 100KM on the flat first) or speed up the climb?

    Looking at Green (points) jersey - what is that meant to measure? It's probably a bit arbitrary, but if it's meant to be 'Most Consistent finisher' it doesn't currently do that.
    Turn it into a pure 'consistency' jersey for lowest overall aggregate position across all 21 stages. So if Wout VA came 5th on every stage he'd score 105 points.

    Currently it is more of a sprints jersey (even including intermediates) as Cav can get 4 first places, and a load of 150ish places and win it - not saying that's right or wrong, just a question on what it's measuring.
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 11,917
    Neither points nor kom is meant to be an award for the best in any particular category. They're meant to be entertaining competitions. That's why they fiddle with the weightings every now and again. The question isn't "how do we weight this so it goes to the most deserving rider", it's "how do we weight this so we see riders making an effort to win the jersey and give us a competition"
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 63,290 Lives Here

    Neither points nor kom is meant to be an award for the best in any particular category. They're meant to be entertaining competitions. That's why they fiddle with the weightings every now and again. The question isn't "how do we weight this so it goes to the most deserving rider", it's "how do we weight this so we see riders making an effort to win the jersey and give us a competition"

    Why bother having it related to mountains then? Bin it all off and create a new competition from scratch?

    What would you go with?
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 11,917

    Neither points nor kom is meant to be an award for the best in any particular category. They're meant to be entertaining competitions. That's why they fiddle with the weightings every now and again. The question isn't "how do we weight this so it goes to the most deserving rider", it's "how do we weight this so we see riders making an effort to win the jersey and give us a competition"

    Why bother having it related to mountains then? Bin it all off and create a new competition from scratch?

    What would you go with?
    Probably something involving mountains tbh. All the comps involve racing something, you either have some arbitrary lines (like the intermediate sprints) or some mountain tops. Other than that, what are you going to do? Longest wheelie? Biggest bunny hop?

    I mean you could have some sort of strava segment style of comp, but that would be pretty rubbish and probably quite dangerous for the peloton.
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 8,122
    edited July 2021
    I still the the current system minus the double points for a stage finish works. That will usually take the yellow jersey out of the competition but leave us with a competition biased towards those who can climb well. It does also favour those good at getting into breaks of course but i am not sure that's a problem.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 63,290 Lives Here

    I still the the current system minus the double points for a stage finish works. That will usually take the yellow jersey out of the competition but leave us with a competition biased towards those who can climb well. It does also favour those good at getting into breaks of course but i am not sure that's a problem.

    The reason the double points were added as some fairly poor climbers were becoming "KOM" and in cycling you have this weird dynamic that if the big riders aren't winning it, it's not a big competition.
  • bianchi_davebianchi_dave Posts: 686
    Why not just take accumulated time over all the categorised climbs of the race? That way, the overall fastest climber wins the jersey. It may be the case the GC winner still takes it, but may be less likely? Seems the simplest and fairest solution.
    Scott Addict RC
    Scott Foil Premium
    Trek Emonda Disc
    Scott Solace 10
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 63,290 Lives Here
    edited July 2021

    Why not just take accumulated time over all the categorised climbs of the race? That way, the overall fastest climber wins the jersey. It may be the case the GC winner still takes it, but may be less likely? Seems the simplest and fairest solution.

    The way the course is designed that would almost exclusively be the yellow jersey.

    You want something that sorts the wheat from the chaff but also something that is separate enough to not be won by accident.
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 8,122
    Also you could sit in the bunch and draft your way up some climbs much faster than someone out in front - and that isn't adding anything to the race.

    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 21,405
    I don't think it's changed much since the days of alaphillippe, barguil, majka and bardet winning way back in 2016, 2017, 2018 and 2019. (And 2014.)

  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 26,375

    Why not just take accumulated time over all the categorised climbs of the race? That way, the overall fastest climber wins the jersey. It may be the case the GC winner still takes it, but may be less likely? Seems the simplest and fairest solution.


    It's not a great format for the viewer. It would essentially be a battle only visible on a spreadsheet
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • N0bodyOfTheGoatN0bodyOfTheGoat Posts: 5,160
    Bonus point multiplier for being in the top three over consecutive climbs in a stage?
    ================
    2020 Voodoo Marasa
    2017 Cube Attain GTC Pro Disc 2016
    2016 Voodoo Wazoo
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 17,076
    For those that think the competition is broken, why not declare who you think should have won this year, then work backwards to come with a method by which they would have won.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 63,290 Lives Here

    For those that think the competition is broken, why not declare who you think should have won this year, then work backwards to come with a method by which they would have won.

    Poels or Quintana or one of those guys, for me.
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 10,546
    RichN95. said:

    Why not just take accumulated time over all the categorised climbs of the race? That way, the overall fastest climber wins the jersey. It may be the case the GC winner still takes it, but may be less likely? Seems the simplest and fairest solution.


    It's not a great format for the viewer. It would essentially be a battle only visible on a spreadsheet
    Could also create some weird racing if one team decided to seriously target it - in the extreme they could soft pedal between each climb and then do a train up each one... Obviously that's probably quite unlikely in reality but you would probably see riders taking the KOM like an ITT rather than actually racing and attacking each other etc.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 63,290 Lives Here
    edited July 2021
    How about this.

    KOM points distributed as they are now, without the double points at the MTF/last climb.

    BUT - you have a "how many people are with you at the KOM line" modulator

    You get:

    100% of the points available as you cross the line if you are solo (so a timeable gap between you and the next rider)
    60% for 2-5 riders in your group.
    40% for 6-10 riders in your group.
    20% 10+ riders in your group.

    I've just made this up so there will likely be problems - thoughts?

    So, picture the example.

    Rider 1 crosses the KOM line of the Tourmalet solo and gets 20 points

    Rider 2,3,4 cross the line in those respective positions, but they are in a group of 3, so they would get 15,12,10 points normally, but this time they get 9,7,6 respectively.

    Rider 5 across the finish line is actually leading the peloton of 30 riders over the top so he gets 2 points (1.6 points rounded up).

    You could maybe change the point available to avoid fractions.
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 24,774

    For those that think the competition is broken, why not declare who you think should have won this year, then work backwards to come with a method by which they would have won.

    This...

    Once 'They've' decided what it's supposed to reward, the rest of the question is easy...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 21,405

    For those that think the competition is broken, why not declare who you think should have won this year, then work backwards to come with a method by which they would have won.

    Poels or Quintana or one of those guys, for me.
    So what was poels better at than pog?
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 17,076

    For those that think the competition is broken, why not declare who you think should have won this year, then work backwards to come with a method by which they would have won.

    Poels or Quintana or one of those guys, for me.
    So what was poels better at than pog?
    He was better at not being Pogacar which seems to be a necessary attribute.

    I think someone upthread suggested he wanted it more.

    So, in summary, he wanted to beat the winner and was not the winner, therefore he should be the winner.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 63,290 Lives Here

    For those that think the competition is broken, why not declare who you think should have won this year, then work backwards to come with a method by which they would have won.

    Poels or Quintana or one of those guys, for me.
    So what was poels better at than pog?
    Going up the road and winning sprints over the KOM lines.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 63,290 Lives Here
    edited July 2021

    For those that think the competition is broken, why not declare who you think should have won this year, then work backwards to come with a method by which they would have won.

    Poels or Quintana or one of those guys, for me.
    So what was poels better at than pog?
    He was better at not being Pogacar which seems to be a necessary attribute.

    I think someone upthread suggested he wanted it more.

    So, in summary, he wanted to beat the winner and was not the winner, therefore he should be the winner.
    No, he went up the road ahead of the peloton and tried to bag as many points as possible, including sprinting against his rivals for the MTF points.

    Pog won the jersey entirely as a side effect of trying to win the overall and stages. You want a competition that can't be "won by accident" if possible.
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 21,405
    edited July 2021
    The green jersey can be won by accident if you are the best at winning sprint stages.
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 20,536

    Bring back 150km of TTs in the Tour and watch the polka dot become relevant again.

    Not guarantee of that . Virenque was that era and he won it with super lamo tactics
    Decent climber though.

    If you want climbers to go for it and do well in the polka competition they need to not be GC contenders.

    Else it is the suicide breakaway competition or it rewards the next climber - like it has the last 2 tours.
    I want a punchy competition that rewards bravery and tenacity that stretches across all phases of the race day especially in the mountains.
    I guess what I mean is what has changed nowadays is the polka dot never wins.

    I am quite happy for climbers to go out from the gun and because they can climb fast, hold the peloton off.

    That is entertaining

    Nowadays any rider with that capability is automatically a GC rider.

    How about front loading the climbing stages right from the off and no mtf’s?
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 21,405
    No points for mtfs then? Then it's a climbing breakaway jersey, which is different enough, is a competition on its own and nothing like the gc or stage wins.

    Not what I'd want, but is possible.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 17,076
    One of the reasons for time bonuses for winning a stage was to incentivise the GC guys to try to win stages. So really Pogacar was only winning the stage by accident.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 63,290 Lives Here
    No-one interested in my alternative competition?
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 21,405

    No-one interested in my alternative competition?

    Makes breakaway less likely to make it to the finish line. And really complicated.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 63,290 Lives Here

    No-one interested in my alternative competition?

    Makes breakaway less likely to make it to the finish line. And really complicated.
    Well that's the trade off, right?

    I guess I am trying to incentivise going up the road solo or at least breaking it up into smaller groups. Gives riders something to sprint for, and go from further out.
  • ProssPross Posts: 33,448
    ddraver said:

    For those that think the competition is broken, why not declare who you think should have won this year, then work backwards to come with a method by which they would have won.

    This...

    Once 'They've' decided what it's supposed to reward, the rest of the question is easy...
    It's been stated numerous times - someone who was actually riding to try to win it not someone who picked up points as part of their GC campaign. If Pog was deliberately riding to win the KoM as well as yellow then great but it was just a byproduct of wnning the two main MTFs.
Sign In or Register to comment.