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Fixing the K.O.M. competition.

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  • jimmyjamsjimmyjams Posts: 537

    r0bh said:

    The real competition that needs fixing is the team one. Bahrain-Victorious, EF Education Nippo and Ineos are the three best teams in the race? You're having a laugh.

    But no-one really cares about or notices the team competition
    Except Movistar
    The Tour is basically a team event, so I think a team jersey very legitimate. And being the best team at getting 3 of your members home, before other teams manage that, does seem to me to rewardable. Who wins it hasn't to do with team tactics, although some might like it to be – the GC is the reward for tactics.
    The team event also carries more prize money than winning any of the green, polkadot or white jerseys, or than winning 4 stages. Only being in the GC top 4 at the end is worth more. Teams who do well in it wouldn't be at all happy if it went.
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 11,931

    I don't think it is broken. Pogacar is the best climber and he has won the best climber jersey.

    I can see some merit of having another jersey for breakaway riders.

    It is broken, not because Pog isn't the best climber, but because it's an alternative competition that got won by default.

    There are other reasons for that - like the contenders splitting pts between them - but that was otherwise the sign of a healthy and interesting competition


    The weighting is currently too far in favour of the GC riders, but was brought in to stop the riders winning the jersey on the strength of hoovering up a load of cat 3 and 4s.

    I think extendeding the scoring places would go a long way to fixing it, sprints get 15 Placings, an hc only 8
    Where did poels come yesterday? Would he be in the points if it was scored to 15 places ? No he came 18th
    He was 18th the day before as well, but if you know you're not making the top 8 why would you ride for 15th when there aren't points for it?

    But I'm not just talking about increasing the points positions on final climbs, they could be doubled throughout the race
    Maybe but then you get the virenque effect where you can win the jersey by mopping up points left on the road available to the peloton . You can win the jersey making minimal efforts out the bunch as the increased number of placings can leave points for the bunch . Hence why the placings were reduced in number
    True, though I think if they thought they could reliably put a French rider in a jersey...

    It's a tricky balance. You want to reward riders that go hunting points in the break, but not if they sit up when the final climb arrives
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • above_the_cowsabove_the_cows Posts: 11,406

    The real competition that needs fixing is the team one. Bahrain-Victorious, EF Education Nippo and Ineos are the three best teams in the race? You're having a laugh.

    You are Movistar.
    Correlation is not causation.
  • mididoctorsmididoctors Posts: 12,912

    I don't think it is broken. Pogacar is the best climber and he has won the best climber jersey.

    I can see some merit of having another jersey for breakaway riders.

    It is broken, not because Pog isn't the best climber, but because it's an alternative competition that got won by default.

    There are other reasons for that - like the contenders splitting pts between them - but that was otherwise the sign of a healthy and interesting competition


    The weighting is currently too far in favour of the GC riders, but was brought in to stop the riders winning the jersey on the strength of hoovering up a load of cat 3 and 4s.

    I think extendeding the scoring places would go a long way to fixing it, sprints get 15 Placings, an hc only 8
    Where did poels come yesterday? Would he be in the points if it was scored to 15 places ? No he came 18th
    He was 18th the day before as well, but if you know you're not making the top 8 why would you ride for 15th when there aren't points for it?

    But I'm not just talking about increasing the points positions on final climbs, they could be doubled throughout the race
    Maybe but then you get the virenque effect where you can win the jersey by mopping up points left on the road available to the peloton . You can win the jersey making minimal efforts out the bunch as the increased number of placings can leave points for the bunch . Hence why the placings were reduced in number
    True, though I think if they thought they could reliably put a French rider in a jersey...

    It's a tricky balance. You want to reward riders that go hunting points in the break, but not if they sit up when the final climb arrives
    I like my idea
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 11,931

    I don't think it is broken. Pogacar is the best climber and he has won the best climber jersey.

    I can see some merit of having another jersey for breakaway riders.

    It is broken, not because Pog isn't the best climber, but because it's an alternative competition that got won by default.

    There are other reasons for that - like the contenders splitting pts between them - but that was otherwise the sign of a healthy and interesting competition


    The weighting is currently too far in favour of the GC riders, but was brought in to stop the riders winning the jersey on the strength of hoovering up a load of cat 3 and 4s.

    I think extendeding the scoring places would go a long way to fixing it, sprints get 15 Placings, an hc only 8
    Where did poels come yesterday? Would he be in the points if it was scored to 15 places ? No he came 18th
    He was 18th the day before as well, but if you know you're not making the top 8 why would you ride for 15th when there aren't points for it?

    But I'm not just talking about increasing the points positions on final climbs, they could be doubled throughout the race
    Maybe but then you get the virenque effect where you can win the jersey by mopping up points left on the road available to the peloton . You can win the jersey making minimal efforts out the bunch as the increased number of placings can leave points for the bunch . Hence why the placings were reduced in number
    True, though I think if they thought they could reliably put a French rider in a jersey...

    It's a tricky balance. You want to reward riders that go hunting points in the break, but not if they sit up when the final climb arrives
    I like my idea
    I don't. :wink:
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • Lanterne_RogueLanterne_Rogue Posts: 3,688

    The real competition that needs fixing is the team one. Bahrain-Victorious, EF Education Nippo and Ineos are the three best teams in the race? You're having a laugh.

    You are Movistar.
    You can't deny it though. A team competition that doesn't reward Movistar is completely jiggered.
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 11,931

    The real competition that needs fixing is the team one. Bahrain-Victorious, EF Education Nippo and Ineos are the three best teams in the race? You're having a laugh.

    You are Movistar.
    You can't deny it though. A team competition that doesn't reward Movistar is completely jiggered.
    Points should be awarded on how close your team name is to Movistar.
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • ProssPross Posts: 34,121
    I think this thread has proved that no-one really likes the Tour.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 64,449 Lives Here
    Bring back 150km of TTs in the Tour and watch the polka dot become relevant again.
  • mididoctorsmididoctors Posts: 12,912

    Bring back 150km of TTs in the Tour and watch the polka dot become relevant again.

    Not guarantee of that . Virenque was that era and he won it with super lamo tactics
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 64,449 Lives Here
    edited July 2021

    Bring back 150km of TTs in the Tour and watch the polka dot become relevant again.

    Not guarantee of that . Virenque was that era and he won it with super lamo tactics
    Decent climber though.

    If you want climbers to go for it and do well in the polka competition they need to not be GC contenders.

    Else it is the suicide breakaway competition or it rewards the next climber - like it has the last 2 tours.
  • mididoctorsmididoctors Posts: 12,912

    Bring back 150km of TTs in the Tour and watch the polka dot become relevant again.

    Not guarantee of that . Virenque was that era and he won it with super lamo tactics
    Decent climber though.

    If you want climbers to go for it and do well in the polka competition they need to not be GC contenders.

    Else it is the suicide breakaway competition or it rewards the next climber - like it has the last 2 tours.
    I want a punchy competition that rewards bravery and tenacity that stretches across all phases of the race day especially in the mountains.
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctorsmididoctors Posts: 12,912
    Best climber is a mountain TT
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 8,210

    Agree a jersey shouldn't be won by default.

    Easiest solution just get rid of the double points for mountain top finishes.

    Just goes back to being the Mickey mouse jersey
    Why? If it's for the best climber then most years it's going to go with yellow - then people will stop riding for it and it becomes pointless.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 64,449 Lives Here

    Bring back 150km of TTs in the Tour and watch the polka dot become relevant again.

    Not guarantee of that . Virenque was that era and he won it with super lamo tactics
    Decent climber though.

    If you want climbers to go for it and do well in the polka competition they need to not be GC contenders.

    Else it is the suicide breakaway competition or it rewards the next climber - like it has the last 2 tours.
    I want a punchy competition that rewards bravery and tenacity that stretches across all phases of the race day especially in the mountains.
    I guess what I mean is what has changed nowadays is the polka dot never wins.

    I am quite happy for climbers to go out from the gun and because they can climb fast, hold the peloton off.

    That is entertaining

    Nowadays any rider with that capability is automatically a GC rider.

  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 8,210
    jimmyjams said:

    Scrap White as Young riders as well - we're about to have the 3rd year in a row that it's won by the overall winner. Pog could take it for the next 2 years as well I think? The idea that U25s aren't likely to contend for overall so need a separate classification doesn't stack up at all now.

    Seen it suggested elsewhere it should be best debutant, which would be one option and bring in an interesting mix of riders - including the odd 'journeyman' making his TDF debut at 31 etc, alongside new youngsters.


    I like the idea of a debutant's jersey. And of scrapping the white jersey.

    You'll still get people winning it by default and I don't really see what's relevant about it being your first TdF - you could have ridden the Giro 3-4 times - so I think I'd stick with Young Rider if it was a choice between those two.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 11,931

    Bring back 150km of TTs in the Tour and watch the polka dot become relevant again.

    Not guarantee of that . Virenque was that era and he won it with super lamo tactics
    Decent climber though.

    If you want climbers to go for it and do well in the polka competition they need to not be GC contenders.

    Else it is the suicide breakaway competition or it rewards the next climber - like it has the last 2 tours.
    I want a punchy competition that rewards bravery and tenacity that stretches across all phases of the race day especially in the mountains.
    I guess what I mean is what has changed nowadays is the polka dot never wins.

    I am quite happy for climbers to go out from the gun and because they can climb fast, hold the peloton off.

    That is entertaining

    Nowadays any rider with that capability is automatically a GC rider.

    But what you want is riders that should be gc but lost time early or deluxe mtn domestiques that lost their leader switching to target it.
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • ProssPross Posts: 34,121
    Fixing the KoM competition suggests Vino handing over brown envelopes to his rivals when I read this thread title.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 17,454
    Pogacar won LBL this year, so that clearly needs fixing as well.
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 11,931

    Pogacar won LBL this year, so that clearly needs fixing as well.

    He was competing for that, not winning it by accident.
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • mididoctorsmididoctors Posts: 12,912
    edited July 2021
    Deleted
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctorsmididoctors Posts: 12,912
    edited July 2021
    Deleted
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 17,454

    Pogacar won LBL this year, so that clearly needs fixing as well.

    He was competing for that, not winning it by accident.
    You have no idea his view on it. For example, when Froome won the points jersey everyone assumed he didn't care as he missed a place the day before, but he put the effort in and was high enough in the sprint.

    Also, Carapaz and Lopez contested the young rider jersey in their own private battle in a few GTs.
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 11,931

    Pogacar won LBL this year, so that clearly needs fixing as well.

    He was competing for that, not winning it by accident.
    You have no idea his view on it. For example, when Froome won the points jersey everyone assumed he didn't care as he missed a place the day before, but he put the effort in and was high enough in the sprint.

    Also, Carapaz and Lopez contested the young rider jersey in their own private battle in a few GTs.
    Well if somebody is winning it and we don't even know if they're trying to then it proves the point that the competition is broken.
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • Lanterne_RogueLanterne_Rogue Posts: 3,688
    edited July 2021
    Start every tour with a TT up the most horrible mountain possible. Whoever wins it gets the spotty jersey for the rest of the tour.

    Doesn't animate the racing on a daily basis, but it'd be great fun seeing which sprinters survived to line up the next day.
  • jimmyjamsjimmyjams Posts: 537

    Best climber is a mountain TT

    Trouble with TTs is that they don't include individual tactics or teamwork, whether mountain ones or flat(tish) ones; they only make the Tour start to resemble a series of football matches, in which the player who might win the Ballon d'Or, is primarily decided on a series of penalties, more than the 90 mins of play. A bit of a confused analogy I admit, but my gist should be clear. Without looking it up, I suspect what Indurain possibly did manage (and maybe applies in football to Ronaldo some years too).

    Having said that, though, I did like the idea behind the mountain TT in the Tour de Suisse this year, because it included both up and down, while I'm also not adverse to the idea of several short TTs, as apparently happened in Merckx's day.
    Then they sometimes did 3-4 TTs of only about 10 km length on the same day as a more normal stage, sometimes before sometimes after. Frequent short TTs would slightly shake up the GC competition each day (and the Polkadot too, if 1-2 short TTs were climbs), while having the TTs on the same day as a more normal stage would also test the riders in a different way.
  • jimmyjamsjimmyjams Posts: 537

    jimmyjams said:

    Scrap White as Young riders as well - we're about to have the 3rd year in a row that it's won by the overall winner. Pog could take it for the next 2 years as well I think? The idea that U25s aren't likely to contend for overall so need a separate classification doesn't stack up at all now.

    Seen it suggested elsewhere it should be best debutant, which would be one option and bring in an interesting mix of riders - including the odd 'journeyman' making his TDF debut at 31 etc, alongside new youngsters.


    I like the idea of a debutant's jersey. And of scrapping the white jersey.

    You'll still get people winning it by default and I don't really see what's relevant about it being your first TdF - you could have ridden the Giro 3-4 times - so I think I'd stick with Young Rider if it was a choice between those two.

    Well maybe go back to the idea of neo-profis (if I'm correct, those within their first two years of being a profi).
    Not that I've anything against him, but I think Pogacar would then be out of the running this year, the jersey would go to someone else.

    Also, as I wrote in a different thread when the same topic was addressed, whether Young Rider, Debutant or Neo-Profi, I would prefer to see it based on stage placings solely between those eligible rather than time – this differentiates it more from the GC, and also allows for the possibility that a 'new' rider may suffer the following day after a really good performance, but still not be out of the running (encouragement!)

  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 26,391
    To fix it just adjust the points. Rather than double points on MTFs, just add the points from a category down - so if it's a HC climb, add 1 Cat points as bonuses. Maybe do the same for the high point of any stage. Ultimately we want to see a battle, not a GC by-product.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • mididoctorsmididoctors Posts: 12,912
    jimmyjams said:

    Best climber is a mountain TT

    Trouble with TTs is that they don't include individual tactics or teamwork, whether mountain ones or flat(tish) ones; they only make the Tour start to resemble a series of football matches, in which the player who might win the Ballon d'Or, is primarily decided on a series of penalties, more than the 90 mins of play. A bit of a confused analogy I admit, but my gist should be clear. Without looking it up, I suspect what Indurain possibly did manage (and maybe applies in football to Ronaldo some years too).

    Having said that, though, I did like the idea behind the mountain TT in the Tour de Suisse this year, because it included both up and down, while I'm also not adverse to the idea of several short TTs, as apparently happened in Merckx's day.
    Then they sometimes did 3-4 TTs of only about 10 km length on the same day as a more normal stage, sometimes before sometimes after. Frequent short TTs would slightly shake up the GC competition each day (and the Polkadot too, if 1-2 short TTs were climbs), while having the TTs on the same day as a more normal stage would also test the riders in a different way.
    I was being derogatory
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • jimmyjamsjimmyjams Posts: 537

    jimmyjams said:

    Best climber is a mountain TT

    Trouble with TTs is that they don't include individual tactics or teamwork, whether mountain ones or flat(tish) ones; they only make the Tour start to resemble a series of football matches, in which the player who might win the Ballon d'Or, is primarily decided on a series of penalties, more than the 90 mins of play. A bit of a confused analogy I admit, but my gist should be clear. Without looking it up, I suspect what Indurain possibly did manage (and maybe applies in football to Ronaldo some years too).

    Having said that, though, I did like the idea behind the mountain TT in the Tour de Suisse this year, because it included both up and down, while I'm also not adverse to the idea of several short TTs, as apparently happened in Merckx's day.
    Then they sometimes did 3-4 TTs of only about 10 km length on the same day as a more normal stage, sometimes before sometimes after. Frequent short TTs would slightly shake up the GC competition each day (and the Polkadot too, if 1-2 short TTs were climbs), while having the TTs on the same day as a more normal stage would also test the riders in a different way.
    I was being derogatory
    So you don't like mountain TTs?

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