Fixing the K.O.M. competition.

mididoctors
mididoctors Posts: 17,660
edited July 2021 in Pro race
Ok here is an idea . On stages with MTFs instead of double points you have multiple KOM sprints up the climb gaining category. So a 1st cat finish would have a 1st cat finish and a 2nd cat sprint 2/3rds of the way up and a 3rd cat 1/2 way and a 4th cat a quarter the way up .. so a rider who solos up to the finish gets a max 19 points (nearly double ) ... A HC finish would have a 1st cat sprint as well ..max 39 PTS (if I have done the maths correctly) . Even a GC mountain train with no break in front is unlikely to gift all the points to the stage winner. That way pogacar coming off the wheels in the last few km doesn't bag everything. It also rewards Kom riders getting deep into the stage rather than giving up knowing they will have no chance of reaching the finish in the points .

A simplified version with just one halfway sprint is probably more likley . A HC finish has a 1st cat sprint And a 1st cat finish a 2nd cat sprint .

Greedy GC riders coming out the wheels to grab the Kom sprints may pay the price at the finish.

What do you think?
"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
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Comments

  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,943
    I don't think it is broken. Pogacar is the best climber and he has won the best climber jersey.

    I can see some merit of having another jersey for breakaway riders.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 17,660
    We had the best Kom competition for years and it's competitiveness actually working against riders making it entertaining. Why have the competition at all if your giving it to the yellow jersey rewarding a very pedestrian strategy that de-animates the race until the finale. Surely we want a competition that spices up the entire stage ?

    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 13,593

    I don't think it is broken. Pogacar is the best climber and he has won the best climber jersey.

    I can see some merit of having another jersey for breakaway riders.

    It is broken, not because Pog isn't the best climber, but because it's an alternative competition that got won by default.

    There are other reasons for that - like the contenders splitting pts between them - but that was otherwise the sign of a healthy and interesting competition


    The weighting is currently too far in favour of the GC riders, but was brought in to stop the riders winning the jersey on the strength of hoovering up a load of cat 3 and 4s.

    I think extendeding the scoring places would go a long way to fixing it, sprints get 15 Placings, an hc only 8
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  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,113
    Maybe all it needs is instead of double points on the MTF you get one and a half times the points.
    That said, is it broken?
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 17,660
    edited July 2021

    I don't think it is broken. Pogacar is the best climber and he has won the best climber jersey.

    I can see some merit of having another jersey for breakaway riders.

    It is broken, not because Pog isn't the best climber, but because it's an alternative competition that got won by default.

    There are other reasons for that - like the contenders splitting pts between them - but that was otherwise the sign of a healthy and interesting competition


    The weighting is currently too far in favour of the GC riders, but was brought in to stop the riders winning the jersey on the strength of hoovering up a load of cat 3 and 4s.

    I think extendeding the scoring places would go a long way to fixing it, sprints get 15 Placings, an hc only 8
    Where did poels come yesterday? Would he be in the points if it was scored to 15 places ? No he came 18th
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • Lanterne_Rogue
    Lanterne_Rogue Posts: 4,091
    Just scrap the double points for an MTF. There's no reason to privilege being the first over one mountain when it comes to a competition to climb the most mountains first.

    M. Prudhomme can send my consultancy fee to the usual account.
  • Lanterne_Rogue
    Lanterne_Rogue Posts: 4,091
    The real competition that needs fixing is the team one. Bahrain-Victorious, EF Education Nippo and Ineos are the three best teams in the race? You're having a laugh.
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 8,800
    Agree a jersey shouldn't be won by default.

    Easiest solution just get rid of the double points for mountain top finishes.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • r0bh
    r0bh Posts: 2,236

    The real competition that needs fixing is the team one. Bahrain-Victorious, EF Education Nippo and Ineos are the three best teams in the race? You're having a laugh.

    But no-one really cares about or notices the team competition
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,113
    r0bh said:

    The real competition that needs fixing is the team one. Bahrain-Victorious, EF Education Nippo and Ineos are the three best teams in the race? You're having a laugh.

    But no-one really cares about or notices the team competition
    Except Movistar
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 41,471
    Maybe allocate double points to a mid stage climb (highest, longest or steepest that isn't the finish climb) and keep the double points at the end. That way a rider that goes all out and wins the stage is rewarded but the GC rider is less likely to pick the points up by default or have the final KoM further down the climb.

    I would ditch the team competition altogether, it creates negative riding by the teams that target it.
  • yorkshireraw
    yorkshireraw Posts: 1,632
    Scrap White as Young riders as well - we're about to have the 3rd year in a row that it's won by the overall winner. Pog could take it for the next 2 years as well I think? The idea that U25s aren't likely to contend for overall so need a separate classification doesn't stack up at all now.

    Seen it suggested elsewhere it should be best debutant, which would be one option and bring in an interesting mix of riders - including the odd 'journeyman' making his TDF debut at 31 etc, alongside new youngsters.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,943
    It's the green jersey I want to change.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 41,471

    It's the green jersey I want to change.

    That was done fairly recently. What issue do you have with it - that it should be allocated evenly on all stages or that there should be less emphasis on the intermediate sprint?

    I would agree that white jersey should be best debut performance.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 17,660

    Agree a jersey shouldn't be won by default.

    Easiest solution just get rid of the double points for mountain top finishes.

    Just goes back to being the Mickey mouse jersey
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • r0bh
    r0bh Posts: 2,236

    It's the green jersey I want to change.

    Green is working quite well this year isn't it? Despite Cav's clear superiority in the sprints Matthews isn't that far away from going after the intermediates.
  • Lanterne_Rogue
    Lanterne_Rogue Posts: 4,091
    White to best debutant seems an easy fix. A veteran's jersey also makes sense to me - seems cruel to pointlessly disinter Valverde every year otherwise.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 17,660
    r0bh said:

    It's the green jersey I want to change.

    Green is working quite well this year isn't it? Despite Cav's clear superiority in the sprints Matthews isn't that far away from going after the intermediates.
    one more medium mountain stage may have swung it back to Matthews

    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,238

    r0bh said:

    The real competition that needs fixing is the team one. Bahrain-Victorious, EF Education Nippo and Ineos are the three best teams in the race? You're having a laugh.

    But no-one really cares about or notices the team competition
    Except Movistar
    So this Tour must be a disaster for them!
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,238
    Pross said:

    It's the green jersey I want to change.

    That was done fairly recently. What issue do you have with it - that it should be allocated evenly on all stages or that there should be less emphasis on the intermediate sprint?

    I would agree that white jersey should be best debut performance.
    The intermediates have been what's made it interesting this Tour - makes it a legitimate battle between Cavendish and the guys who can access the harder intermediate sprints.

    I guess had Ewan still been here and split some of the stages with Cavendish, it might have been different.

    It's been a more interesting this year without Sagan winning by hoovering up all the intermediates anyway.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 13,593

    I don't think it is broken. Pogacar is the best climber and he has won the best climber jersey.

    I can see some merit of having another jersey for breakaway riders.

    It is broken, not because Pog isn't the best climber, but because it's an alternative competition that got won by default.

    There are other reasons for that - like the contenders splitting pts between them - but that was otherwise the sign of a healthy and interesting competition


    The weighting is currently too far in favour of the GC riders, but was brought in to stop the riders winning the jersey on the strength of hoovering up a load of cat 3 and 4s.

    I think extendeding the scoring places would go a long way to fixing it, sprints get 15 Placings, an hc only 8
    Where did poels come yesterday? Would he be in the points if it was scored to 15 places ? No he came 18th
    He was 18th the day before as well, but if you know you're not making the top 8 why would you ride for 15th when there aren't points for it?

    But I'm not just talking about increasing the points positions on final climbs, they could be doubled throughout the race
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  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,943
    Pross said:

    It's the green jersey I want to change.

    That was done fairly recently. What issue do you have with it - that it should be allocated evenly on all stages or that there should be less emphasis on the intermediate sprint?

    Both of those aspects.

  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,238
    I think it's the double points for MTFs that's the main issue isn't it - the GC guys will always want to go for these since it's a good chance to put time into your rivals (plus the prestige of the stage wins), which means the guys who've been fighting for all the other KOM points all Tour are going to struggle. Unless they're good enough to sit in the GC group on the climbs then poach the win - but then they'd be a GC rider... GC riders and good climbers have a big overlap, whereas GC riders and sprinters, less so.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 17,660
    edited July 2021

    I don't think it is broken. Pogacar is the best climber and he has won the best climber jersey.

    I can see some merit of having another jersey for breakaway riders.

    It is broken, not because Pog isn't the best climber, but because it's an alternative competition that got won by default.

    There are other reasons for that - like the contenders splitting pts between them - but that was otherwise the sign of a healthy and interesting competition


    The weighting is currently too far in favour of the GC riders, but was brought in to stop the riders winning the jersey on the strength of hoovering up a load of cat 3 and 4s.

    I think extendeding the scoring places would go a long way to fixing it, sprints get 15 Placings, an hc only 8
    Where did poels come yesterday? Would he be in the points if it was scored to 15 places ? No he came 18th
    He was 18th the day before as well, but if you know you're not making the top 8 why would you ride for 15th when there aren't points for it?

    But I'm not just talking about increasing the points positions on final climbs, they could be doubled throughout the race
    Maybe but then you get the virenque effect where you can win the jersey by mopping up points left on the road available to the peloton . You can win the jersey making minimal efforts out the bunch as the increased number of placings can leave points for the bunch . Hence why the placings were reduced in number
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,943
    I'd replace intermediate sprints with sponsored sprints to win random stuff. This would reward the breakaway riders.

    I'd consider a jersey related to intermediate sprints to also reward breakaway riders.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 17,660

    I'd replace intermediate sprints with sponsored sprints to win random stuff. This would reward the breakaway riders.

    I'd consider a jersey related to intermediate sprints to also reward breakaway riders.

    They used to except primes from villages on the route ... Semi offical prizes ... Cows cheeses cash that sort of thing
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 17,660
    I don't think cav is recovered from the hills
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • jimmyjams
    jimmyjams Posts: 755

    I don't think it is broken. Pogacar is the best climber and he has won the best climber jersey.

    I can see some merit of having another jersey for breakaway riders.

    It is broken, not because Pog isn't the best climber, but because it's an alternative competition that got won by default.

    There are other reasons for that - like the contenders splitting pts between them - but that was otherwise the sign of a healthy and interesting competition


    The weighting is currently too far in favour of the GC riders, but was brought in to stop the riders winning the jersey on the strength of hoovering up a load of cat 3 and 4s.

    I think extendeding the scoring places would go a long way to fixing it, sprints get 15 Placings, an hc only 8
    Where did poels come yesterday? Would he be in the points if it was scored to 15 places ? No he came 18th
    He was 18th the day before as well, but if you know you're not making the top 8 why would you ride for 15th when there aren't points for it?

    But I'm not just talking about increasing the points positions on final climbs, they could be doubled throughout the race
    Maybe but then you get the virenque effect where you can win the jersey by mopping up points left on the road available to the peloton . You can win the jersey making minimal efforts out the bunch as the increased number of placings can leave points for the bunch . Hence why the placings were reduced in number
    I agree with others that doing away with double-points at hor-category MTFs would help a lot – Pogacar got 80 of his 107 pts from stages 17 and 18 alone.
    Without the doubling of points on those stages, Poels would be unassailable with 88 pts, while Woods, Van Aert, Pogacar and Quintana in places 2nd to 5th, with between 72 and 66 pts.

    I would actually give the same points for cat. 3 and 4 climbs as now given for cat. 2 climbs.
    Despite NaTaDoctor's comment somewhere above („riders winning the jersey on the strength of hoovering up a load of cat 3 and 4s“), I don't think in the past that that has been at all common; one only gets that impression when a rider like Cosnefroy leads the competition for 2 weeks, as in the 2020 edition. I know my idea would perhaps mean this happens more often, however, I think increasing the value of the smaller climbs would help enliven several stages and better reward those in breaks.

    I do, however, agree with NaTaDoctor's idea of giving points to more than just the first 8 on cat. HC (and first 6 on cat. 1) climbs, so like first 15 and first 10 respectively.
  • jimmyjams
    jimmyjams Posts: 755

    Pross said:

    It's the green jersey I want to change.

    That was done fairly recently. What issue do you have with it - that it should be allocated evenly on all stages or that there should be less emphasis on the intermediate sprint?

    Both of those aspects.

    I'd also say the Points competition could be improved. Over the last decade, the number of pts awarded on the flat and medium stages has been gradually increased, so it is now principally a sprinter's jersey whereas in the past it still had a degree of allrounder about it. In the past, a sprinter usually won it, but non-sprinters could also be in contention and sometimes finished 2nd or 3rd overall.
    Also the difference in pts for placings has (unfortunately I think) been greatly increased. For a flat stage, 1st once got 12 pts more than 5th, now that difference is 34 pts – those stages have become 'Winner takes all' races.
  • jimmyjams
    jimmyjams Posts: 755
    edited July 2021

    Scrap White as Young riders as well - we're about to have the 3rd year in a row that it's won by the overall winner. Pog could take it for the next 2 years as well I think? The idea that U25s aren't likely to contend for overall so need a separate classification doesn't stack up at all now.

    Seen it suggested elsewhere it should be best debutant, which would be one option and bring in an interesting mix of riders - including the odd 'journeyman' making his TDF debut at 31 etc, alongside new youngsters.


    I like the idea of a debutant's jersey. And of scrapping the white jersey.