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Fixing the K.O.M. competition.

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  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 11,918

    Although it might encourage the polka dots to just sit in with the GC group as long as possible for a higher finishing position. But they pretty much do that anyway don't they.

    Not really, they tend to soft pedal once they're caught, as they know they'll not have much chance of getting a placing. The point would be to get them to hang with the GC as long as possible.
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 17,134

    I'm broadly in favour of finish climbs having a higher weighting, but x2 is over doing it. I'd still like to see climbers trying to get a placing after the GC has caught them, so let's extend the points range (currently only 8 places for an HC climb)

    Poels finished 18th on both HC finishes, if there were points to eg 16 places he might have tried to hang in longer.

    Make HC summit finishes go down to 14th place with 30,25,22,20,18,16,14,12,10,8,6,4,2,1 points.

    Takes 20 points off Pogacar, putting him at 87 points, with Poels on 88.
    Is that enough punishment for Pogacar though?
    He could have won it if he really wanted to by doing a bit better on that one stage where he didn't quite catch everyone on the last climb.

    It's not punishing him, it's not giving him quite as many special gc bonus points.
    But if he had scored 2 more points elsewhere, I doubt everyone on this thread would be saying he thoroughly deserved to be king of the mountains.
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 11,918

    I'm broadly in favour of finish climbs having a higher weighting, but x2 is over doing it. I'd still like to see climbers trying to get a placing after the GC has caught them, so let's extend the points range (currently only 8 places for an HC climb)

    Poels finished 18th on both HC finishes, if there were points to eg 16 places he might have tried to hang in longer.

    Make HC summit finishes go down to 14th place with 30,25,22,20,18,16,14,12,10,8,6,4,2,1 points.

    Takes 20 points off Pogacar, putting him at 87 points, with Poels on 88.
    Is that enough punishment for Pogacar though?
    It's really not about punishing anyone. It's about creating a competition for climbers that adds to the spectacle. In a race where the GC was dead from week one the kom provided some interest, right up to the point where it became clear that Pog would win it without prioritising it.
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • mididoctorsmididoctors Posts: 12,908
    edited July 2021

    I'm broadly in favour of finish climbs having a higher weighting, but x2 is over doing it. I'd still like to see climbers trying to get a placing after the GC has caught them, so let's extend the points range (currently only 8 places for an HC climb)

    Poels finished 18th on both HC finishes, if there were points to eg 16 places he might have tried to hang in longer.

    I think there's a lot of merit in this. The green jersey points go out a lot further don't they - doesn't seem to make sense for the HC mountain top points to go only down to 8 (although it makes sense for shorter climbs.

    Those HC finishes are pretty much the most prestigious finishes in the race already, so anything which increases the competition for finishing position has to be a good thing surely
    We covered this if you extend the places you get a guy who rides with GC guys pop out to grab points rather than gets in the break ie virenque method which was a boring contest . It's the reason they reduced placings in the first place which did go down further back in the day
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • ProssPross Posts: 33,483
    Just scrap the KoM and have primes instead (maybe an inner tube from the local bike shop and a couple of water bottles or maybe a cheque for £15).
  • mididoctorsmididoctors Posts: 12,908
    Pross said:

    Just scrap the KoM and have primes instead (maybe an inner tube from the local bike shop and a couple of water bottles or maybe a cheque for £15).

    I won a bike repair voucher once . Chocolate teapot
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 11,918

    I'm broadly in favour of finish climbs having a higher weighting, but x2 is over doing it. I'd still like to see climbers trying to get a placing after the GC has caught them, so let's extend the points range (currently only 8 places for an HC climb)

    Poels finished 18th on both HC finishes, if there were points to eg 16 places he might have tried to hang in longer.

    I think there's a lot of merit in this. The green jersey points go out a lot further don't they - doesn't seem to make sense for the HC mountain top points to go only down to 8 (although it makes sense for shorter climbs.

    Those HC finishes are pretty much the most prestigious finishes in the race already, so anything which increases the competition for finishing position has to be a good thing surely
    We covered this if you extend the places you get a guy who rides with GC guys pop out to grab points rather than gets in the break ie virenque method which was a boring contest . It's the reason they reduced placings in the first place which did go down further back in the day
    It was a good point, so my reworked idea is that the points are only extended on final climbs. Or something like that.
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 21,462
    Why didn't Pog get double points on the Grand Colombier in stage 15 last year? HC climb to a mountaintop finish.
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 10,549

    I'm broadly in favour of finish climbs having a higher weighting, but x2 is over doing it. I'd still like to see climbers trying to get a placing after the GC has caught them, so let's extend the points range (currently only 8 places for an HC climb)

    Poels finished 18th on both HC finishes, if there were points to eg 16 places he might have tried to hang in longer.

    I think there's a lot of merit in this. The green jersey points go out a lot further don't they - doesn't seem to make sense for the HC mountain top points to go only down to 8 (although it makes sense for shorter climbs.

    Those HC finishes are pretty much the most prestigious finishes in the race already, so anything which increases the competition for finishing position has to be a good thing surely
    We covered this if you extend the places you get a guy who rides with GC guys pop out to grab points rather than gets in the break ie virenque method which was a boring contest . It's the reason they reduced placings in the first place which did go down further back in the day
    It was a good point, so my reworked idea is that the points are only extended on final climbs. Or something like that.
    I think extending the points back for MTFs is probably a good balance no?
  • jimmyjamsjimmyjams Posts: 536

    Why didn't Pog get double points on the Grand Colombier in stage 15 last year? HC climb to a mountaintop finish.

    They only had double points for the HC MTF of stage 17 in the 2020 edition.
    It isn't automatic that HC MTFs get double points; the KOM points' rules are changed from time to time, each year it can be different.
    There was a time when double points were never given, and then for a while it was the last cat 1 or cat 2 climb of the day which had double points, irrespective of whether a MTF or not. But that rule also didn't stay.
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 21,462
    jimmyjams said:

    Why didn't Pog get double points on the Grand Colombier in stage 15 last year? HC climb to a mountaintop finish.

    They only had double points for the HC MTF of stage 17 in the 2020 edition.
    It isn't automatic that HC MTFs get double points; the KOM points' rules are changed from time to time, each year it can be different.
    There was a time when double points were never given, and then for a while it was the last cat 1 or cat 2 climb of the day which had double points, irrespective of whether a MTF or not. But that rule also didn't stay.
    Well that's a bit weird.

    So they could have said "only Luz Ardiden gets double points, not the stupid hard one" (or vv) and everyone would now be happy.
  • jimmyjamsjimmyjams Posts: 536

    jimmyjams said:

    Why didn't Pog get double points on the Grand Colombier in stage 15 last year? HC climb to a mountaintop finish.

    They only had double points for the HC MTF of stage 17 in the 2020 edition.
    It isn't automatic that HC MTFs get double points; the KOM points' rules are changed from time to time, each year it can be different.
    There was a time when double points were never given, and then for a while it was the last cat 1 or cat 2 climb of the day which had double points, irrespective of whether a MTF or not. But that rule also didn't stay.
    Well that's a bit weird.

    So they could have said "only Luz Ardiden gets double points, not the stupid hard one" (or vv) and everyone would now be happy.
    :D Well there you go, solution found!

    Nowadays the Tour is 'meaner' with its KOM pts than the Giro, giving out fewer pts on climbs and also to fewer riders (15 years ago their points systems were more similar).
    That is, 'meaner' except for two things – the double points (for MTFs and also this year the 2nd Ventoux), which the Giro doesn't do at all. And in having several HC climbs (this year five in the Tour) whereas the Giro effectively only ever has one HC, the Cima Coppi.
    On the other hand, the Giro tends to reward climb winners more generously than the Tour, i.e. a marked difference in points between first and second over a climb.

    Out of interest to see what difference it would make, I had a go at recalculating the Tour KOM pts but based on the current Giro pts system, and with the Souvenir Goddet as the Cima Coppi equivalent (so the other Tour HCs become Cat 1 climbs). Then the Tour top KOM placings and points would have been: (with actual Tour placings & pts in brackets)

    Poels 250 (2nd - 88)
    Quintana 171 (5th - 66)
    Pogacar 116 (1st - 107)
    Van Aert 108 (4th - 68)
    Perez 99 (10th - 37)

    As well as Perez, others who would move into the KOM top ten would be Latour, Alaphilippe and Konrad.
    The losers using the Giro pts system would be Vingegaard, Carapaz and Mollema, none of whom would any longer be in the KOM top 15.

  • mididoctorsmididoctors Posts: 12,908
    edited July 2021
    jimmyjams said:

    jimmyjams said:

    Why didn't Pog get double points on the Grand Colombier in stage 15 last year? HC climb to a mountaintop finish.

    They only had double points for the HC MTF of stage 17 in the 2020 edition.
    It isn't automatic that HC MTFs get double points; the KOM points' rules are changed from time to time, each year it can be different.
    There was a time when double points were never given, and then for a while it was the last cat 1 or cat 2 climb of the day which had double points, irrespective of whether a MTF or not. But that rule also didn't stay.
    Well that's a bit weird.

    So they could have said "only Luz Ardiden gets double points, not the stupid hard one" (or vv) and everyone would now be happy.
    :D Well there you go, solution found!

    Nowadays the Tour is 'meaner' with its KOM pts than the Giro, giving out fewer pts on climbs and also to fewer riders (15 years ago their points systems were more similar).
    That is, 'meaner' except for two things – the double points (for MTFs and also this year the 2nd Ventoux), which the Giro doesn't do at all. And in having several HC climbs (this year five in the Tour) whereas the Giro effectively only ever has one HC, the Cima Coppi.
    On the other hand, the Giro tends to reward climb winners more generously than the Tour, i.e. a marked difference in points between first and second over a climb.

    Out of interest to see what difference it would make, I had a go at recalculating the Tour KOM pts but based on the current Giro pts system, and with the Souvenir Goddet as the Cima Coppi equivalent (so the other Tour HCs become Cat 1 climbs). Then the Tour top KOM placings and points would have been: (with actual Tour placings & pts in brackets)

    Poels 250 (2nd - 88)
    Quintana 171 (5th - 66)
    Pogacar 116 (1st - 107)
    Van Aert 108 (4th - 68)
    Perez 99 (10th - 37)

    As well as Perez, others who would move into the KOM top ten would be Latour, Alaphilippe and Konrad.
    The losers using the Giro pts system would be Vingegaard, Carapaz and Mollema, none of whom would any longer be in the KOM top 15.

    Riders will give up the contest with that point system as early scorers can accumulate biggish totals on smaller climbs . But not tight enough contest to make riders bother to compete . Which why you end up with one horse race at the giro
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 21,462
    You can't really just do that, because the lack of HC in the Giro means you get climbs that are 15km @ 6.1% or 10km @ 7.4% being cat 2. You'd need to bump a load of cat 1 in the Tour down to cat 2.
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 8,132
    This would work with any of the other suggestions. Each rider has one day they can nominate at signing on as playing their joker - on that day all their mountains points are doubled.

    No hear me out ... If the idea is to make an exciting competition then I reckon that would add to it.

    You could also allow a lower weight limit on that day - so companies can market exotic climbing bikes.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • cygnetcygnet Posts: 92
    In a similar manner, riders declare at the start of the tour whether they want competition points or bonus seconds at stage finishes. Points at intermediates open to everyone, even if you select bonus seconds for the finish.
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  • jimmyjamsjimmyjams Posts: 536

    jimmyjams said:

    jimmyjams said:

    Why didn't Pog get double points on the Grand Colombier in stage 15 last year? HC climb to a mountaintop finish.

    They only had double points for the HC MTF of stage 17 in the 2020 edition.
    It isn't automatic that HC MTFs get double points; the KOM points' rules are changed from time to time, each year it can be different.
    There was a time when double points were never given, and then for a while it was the last cat 1 or cat 2 climb of the day which had double points, irrespective of whether a MTF or not. But that rule also didn't stay.
    Well that's a bit weird.

    So they could have said "only Luz Ardiden gets double points, not the stupid hard one" (or vv) and everyone would now be happy.
    :D Well there you go, solution found!

    Nowadays the Tour is 'meaner' with its KOM pts than the Giro, giving out fewer pts on climbs and also to fewer riders (15 years ago their points systems were more similar).
    That is, 'meaner' except for two things – the double points (for MTFs and also this year the 2nd Ventoux), which the Giro doesn't do at all. And in having several HC climbs (this year five in the Tour) whereas the Giro effectively only ever has one HC, the Cima Coppi.
    On the other hand, the Giro tends to reward climb winners more generously than the Tour, i.e. a marked difference in points between first and second over a climb.

    Out of interest to see what difference it would make, I had a go at recalculating the Tour KOM pts but based on the current Giro pts system, and with the Souvenir Goddet as the Cima Coppi equivalent (so the other Tour HCs become Cat 1 climbs). Then the Tour top KOM placings and points would have been: (with actual Tour placings & pts in brackets)

    Poels 250 (2nd - 88)
    Quintana 171 (5th - 66)
    Pogacar 116 (1st - 107)
    Van Aert 108 (4th - 68)
    Perez 99 (10th - 37)

    As well as Perez, others who would move into the KOM top ten would be Latour, Alaphilippe and Konrad.
    The losers using the Giro pts system would be Vingegaard, Carapaz and Mollema, none of whom would any longer be in the KOM top 15.

    Riders will give up the contest with that point system as early scorers can accumulate biggish totals on smaller climbs . But not tight enough contest to make riders bother to compete . Which why you end up with one horse race at the giro
    I wasn't trying to promote the Giro points system, just decided to see how things would have turned out if using it.
    Nonethesless I'm surprised you are not happy, because the Giro points system would have apparently provided a winner (Poels) which it seems most of this forum would have preferred as KOM and who in reality didn't 'accumulate biggish totals on smaller climbs' (as you fear would happen), rather by winning major climbs (which as I pointed out, the Giro system rewards generously).
  • jimmyjamsjimmyjams Posts: 536

    You can't really just do that, because the lack of HC in the Giro means you get climbs that are 15km @ 6.1% or 10km @ 7.4% being cat 2. You'd need to bump a load of cat 1 in the Tour down to cat 2.

    Sorry, not saying you are wrong (or right) - I just don't understand what you are trying to say.
  • jimmyjamsjimmyjams Posts: 536

    This would work with any of the other suggestions. Each rider has one day they can nominate at signing on as playing their joker - on that day all their mountains points are doubled.

    No hear me out ... If the idea is to make an exciting competition then I reckon that would add to it.

    You could also allow a lower weight limit on that day - so companies can market exotic climbing bikes.

    Your idea has an interesting appeal – certain TV quiz shows have similar joker rules, when a contestant gets double points for correct answers after he has played his joker (usually because he feels the question topic is something he knows about).

    Also, if I remember correctly, teams on 'It's A Knockout' (1980s TV) similarly could play a joker when they felt the required task was something they were particularly able at.
    It's amusing to think the Tour could become a modern version.
    There would then clearly be a place for Carlton Kirby at the Tour - introducing and then commentating on how well the stage's played jokers were turning out (with all the excited delirium he can manage).
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 21,462
    jimmyjams said:

    You can't really just do that, because the lack of HC in the Giro means you get climbs that are 15km @ 6.1% or 10km @ 7.4% being cat 2. You'd need to bump a load of cat 1 in the Tour down to cat 2.

    Sorry, not saying you are wrong (or right) - I just don't understand what you are trying to say.
    To replicate something like the giro scoring, if you score tour HC climbs as cat 1, you should score tour cat 1 climbs as cat 2 etc. You can't just have hc and cat 1 as the same.
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 24,796
    (I thought you did good Jim...)

    Maybe abandon double points at finishes except for the queen stage and the high point. I kinda like that people can get points in the early stages. Ide Schelling this year and, in particular, Daniel Teklehaimanot in years past have provided some nice early tour intrigue.
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Lanterne_RogueLanterne_Rogue Posts: 3,688
    It's definitely interesting to have someone actually go and apply a different scoring breakdown to see what happens, so thanks, JJ.

    I like the idea that anyone playing their joker hits a switch and a red light on top of their helmet starts flashing. Cycling needs more gimmicks, to judge by every other sport going.
  • mididoctorsmididoctors Posts: 12,908
    jimmyjams said:

    jimmyjams said:

    jimmyjams said:

    Why didn't Pog get double points on the Grand Colombier in stage 15 last year? HC climb to a mountaintop finish.

    They only had double points for the HC MTF of stage 17 in the 2020 edition.
    It isn't automatic that HC MTFs get double points; the KOM points' rules are changed from time to time, each year it can be different.
    There was a time when double points were never given, and then for a while it was the last cat 1 or cat 2 climb of the day which had double points, irrespective of whether a MTF or not. But that rule also didn't stay.
    Well that's a bit weird.

    So they could have said "only Luz Ardiden gets double points, not the stupid hard one" (or vv) and everyone would now be happy.
    :D Well there you go, solution found!

    Nowadays the Tour is 'meaner' with its KOM pts than the Giro, giving out fewer pts on climbs and also to fewer riders (15 years ago their points systems were more similar).
    That is, 'meaner' except for two things – the double points (for MTFs and also this year the 2nd Ventoux), which the Giro doesn't do at all. And in having several HC climbs (this year five in the Tour) whereas the Giro effectively only ever has one HC, the Cima Coppi.
    On the other hand, the Giro tends to reward climb winners more generously than the Tour, i.e. a marked difference in points between first and second over a climb.

    Out of interest to see what difference it would make, I had a go at recalculating the Tour KOM pts but based on the current Giro pts system, and with the Souvenir Goddet as the Cima Coppi equivalent (so the other Tour HCs become Cat 1 climbs). Then the Tour top KOM placings and points would have been: (with actual Tour placings & pts in brackets)

    Poels 250 (2nd - 88)
    Quintana 171 (5th - 66)
    Pogacar 116 (1st - 107)
    Van Aert 108 (4th - 68)
    Perez 99 (10th - 37)

    As well as Perez, others who would move into the KOM top ten would be Latour, Alaphilippe and Konrad.
    The losers using the Giro pts system would be Vingegaard, Carapaz and Mollema, none of whom would any longer be in the KOM top 15.

    Riders will give up the contest with that point system as early scorers can accumulate biggish totals on smaller climbs . But not tight enough contest to make riders bother to compete . Which why you end up with one horse race at the giro
    I wasn't trying to promote the Giro points system, just decided to see how things would have turned out if using it.
    Nonethesless I'm surprised you are not happy, because the Giro points system would have apparently provided a winner (Poels) which it seems most of this forum would have preferred as KOM and who in reality didn't 'accumulate biggish totals on smaller climbs' (as you fear would happen), rather by winning major climbs (which as I pointed out, the Giro system rewards generously).
    The Kom race would not have played out like it did because unassailable leads are easy to make ...
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • ProssPross Posts: 33,483
    Carlton would be perfect as an It's A Knockout host. Here come the Belgians taking a final toot on the bidon before things get gnarly.
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 21,462
    Maybe a jokers hat style helmet to identify those riders.
  • bianchi_davebianchi_dave Posts: 693
    I have this vague recollection of folk running about dressed as playing cards with giant heads, and the commentator in stitches. Would suit CK perfectly!
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  • ProssPross Posts: 33,483
    That said, given the history of its past presenter maybe It's A Knockout would be more suited to another former ES commentator
  • jimmyjamsjimmyjams Posts: 536

    jimmyjams said:

    You can't really just do that, because the lack of HC in the Giro means you get climbs that are 15km @ 6.1% or 10km @ 7.4% being cat 2. You'd need to bump a load of cat 1 in the Tour down to cat 2.

    Sorry, not saying you are wrong (or right) - I just don't understand what you are trying to say.
    To replicate something like the giro scoring, if you score tour HC climbs as cat 1, you should score tour cat 1 climbs as cat 2 etc. You can't just have hc and cat 1 as the same.
    Ah, okay, I now understand. But I don't really agree, reason being that:
    The Giro had 12 cat 1 climbs from a total of 44 categorised climbs, i.e. 27%.
    The Tour had 13 cat 1 climbs from a total of 60 categorised climbs, and if I 'demote' 4 of the 5 HC climbs to become cat 1 climbs, that makes 17 cat 1 from 60, i.e. 28%, an almost identical percentage to the Giro figure. So I am not disproportionally overloading the cat 1 by demoting 4 HC .
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