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Fixing the K.O.M. competition.

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  • ProssPross Posts: 33,479

    How about this.

    KOM points distributed as they are now, without the double points at the MTF/last climb.

    BUT - you have a "how many people are with you at the KOM line" modulator

    You get:

    100% of the points available as you cross the line if you are solo (so a timeable gap between you and the next rider)
    60% for 2-5 riders in your group.
    40% for 6-10 riders in your group.
    20% 10+ riders in your group.

    I've just made this up so there will likely be problems - thoughts?

    So, picture the example.

    Rider 1 crosses the KOM line of the Tourmalet solo and gets 20 points

    Rider 2,3,4 cross the line in those respective positions, but they are in a group of 3, so they would get 15,12,10 points normally, but this time they get 9,7,6 respectively.

    Rider 5 across the finish line is actually leading the peloton of 30 riders over the top so he gets 2 points (1.6 points rounded up).

    You could maybe change the point available to avoid fractions.

    I don't see how this would help much. It still results in a high risk of an "accidental" win as a GC contender is quite likely to ride clear on the final climb.

    The biggest issue is double points on MTFs by which time the break has generally been caught and the points are taken by those racing for the stage so the most obvious solution is to favour mid stage climbs over the final climb unless I'm missing something.
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 8,132

    The green jersey can be won by accident if you are the best at winning sprint stages.

    Without going for intermediates? No doubt it can but it seems unlikely it would be.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • mrb123mrb123 Posts: 3,909
    How about a jersey for the best rider not called Tadej Pogacar? Should be decent sport for the next few years at least...
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 21,460
    Poels and Quintana should have tried to win those mountaintop finishes really.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 17,131

    Poels and Quintana should have tried to win those mountaintop finishes really.

    It's surprising they didn't given that they are kings of the mountains.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 26,376
    edited July 2021
    Poels, Quintana and Woods should have come to an arrangement where they all got into the break together each day rather than try to get in without the others and made sure they took Pogacar further out of contention.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • mididoctorsmididoctors Posts: 12,908

    I still the the current system minus the double points for a stage finish works. That will usually take the yellow jersey out of the competition but leave us with a competition biased towards those who can climb well. It does also favour those good at getting into breaks of course but i am not sure that's a problem.

    The reason the double points were added as some fairly poor climbers were becoming "KOM" and in cycling you have this weird dynamic that if the big riders aren't winning it, it's not a big competition.
    Which is why my idea is so fantastic and clearly genius solves both issues
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctorsmididoctors Posts: 12,908
    Pross said:

    How about this.

    KOM points distributed as they are now, without the double points at the MTF/last climb.

    BUT - you have a "how many people are with you at the KOM line" modulator

    You get:

    100% of the points available as you cross the line if you are solo (so a timeable gap between you and the next rider)
    60% for 2-5 riders in your group.
    40% for 6-10 riders in your group.
    20% 10+ riders in your group.

    I've just made this up so there will likely be problems - thoughts?

    So, picture the example.

    Rider 1 crosses the KOM line of the Tourmalet solo and gets 20 points

    Rider 2,3,4 cross the line in those respective positions, but they are in a group of 3, so they would get 15,12,10 points normally, but this time they get 9,7,6 respectively.

    Rider 5 across the finish line is actually leading the peloton of 30 riders over the top so he gets 2 points (1.6 points rounded up).

    You could maybe change the point available to avoid fractions.

    I don't see how this would help much. It still results in a high risk of an "accidental" win as a GC contender is quite likely to ride clear on the final climb.

    The biggest issue is double points on MTFs by which time the break has generally been caught and the points are taken by those racing for the stage so the most obvious solution is to favour mid stage climbs over the final climb unless I'm missing something.
    Too complicated . Who's solo ? 1 sec gap?
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctorsmididoctors Posts: 12,908

    The green jersey can be won by accident if you are the best at winning sprint stages.

    Without going for intermediates? No doubt it can but it seems unlikely it would be.
    Green jersey is pretty well tuned ...cav STILL had to watch the intermediate sprints despite all the sprinters being censored or out the race
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • Lanterne_RogueLanterne_Rogue Posts: 3,688
    Green Jersey seems to get tinkered with a lot more to keep it balanced. Or do I just not bother checking the rules for polka dots and it's constantly flexing?
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 63,444 Lives Here

    Pross said:

    How about this.

    KOM points distributed as they are now, without the double points at the MTF/last climb.

    BUT - you have a "how many people are with you at the KOM line" modulator

    You get:

    100% of the points available as you cross the line if you are solo (so a timeable gap between you and the next rider)
    60% for 2-5 riders in your group.
    40% for 6-10 riders in your group.
    20% 10+ riders in your group.

    I've just made this up so there will likely be problems - thoughts?

    So, picture the example.

    Rider 1 crosses the KOM line of the Tourmalet solo and gets 20 points

    Rider 2,3,4 cross the line in those respective positions, but they are in a group of 3, so they would get 15,12,10 points normally, but this time they get 9,7,6 respectively.

    Rider 5 across the finish line is actually leading the peloton of 30 riders over the top so he gets 2 points (1.6 points rounded up).

    You could maybe change the point available to avoid fractions.

    I don't see how this would help much. It still results in a high risk of an "accidental" win as a GC contender is quite likely to ride clear on the final climb.

    The biggest issue is double points on MTFs by which time the break has generally been caught and the points are taken by those racing for the stage so the most obvious solution is to favour mid stage climbs over the final climb unless I'm missing something.
    Too complicated . Who's solo ? 1 sec gap?
    Yeah just like at the finish line.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 26,376

    Green Jersey seems to get tinkered with a lot more to keep it balanced. Or do I just not bother checking the rules for polka dots and it's constantly flexing?


    The advantage they have with the green jersey is where they place the intermediate spirints. Sagan kept winning routinely so now they have moved most before the big climbs.

    Here's an idea, then, for the King of Mountains. On a final MTF, rather than have double points, have instead an intermediate 'sprint' somewhere on that final climb with bonus points there. Say 3-4km from the finish, or maybe at the end of the steepest part. Maybe do it for all final climbs, not just MTFs.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • neonriverneonriver Posts: 204
    It’s entirely possible that the sponsor of the kom jersey wants it this way as they can now advertise with pog in their jersey even if he never wore it on a stage
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 24,796
    Pross said:

    ddraver said:

    For those that think the competition is broken, why not declare who you think should have won this year, then work backwards to come with a method by which they would have won.

    This...

    Once 'They've' decided what it's supposed to reward, the rest of the question is easy...
    It's been stated numerous times - someone who was actually riding to try to win it not someone who picked up points as part of their GC campaign. If Pog was deliberately riding to win the KoM as well as yellow then great but it was just a byproduct of wnning the two main MTFs.
    That's not actually answering the question Pross. If it was then give it to the rider whose total Average Watts was the highest percentage of their FTP.

    What sort of cycling is it supposed to reward?

    (god damn!)
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • mididoctorsmididoctors Posts: 12,908
    RichN95. said:

    Green Jersey seems to get tinkered with a lot more to keep it balanced. Or do I just not bother checking the rules for polka dots and it's constantly flexing?


    The advantage they have with the green jersey is where they place the intermediate spirints. Sagan kept winning routinely so now they have moved most before the big climbs.

    Here's an idea, then, for the King of Mountains. On a final MTF, rather than have double points, have instead an intermediate 'sprint' somewhere on that final climb with bonus points there. Say 3-4km from the finish, or maybe at the end of the steepest part. Maybe do it for all final climbs, not just MTFs.
    Have you read the first post on this thread . I suggest you do 😜
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 8,132
    ddraver said:

    Pross said:

    ddraver said:

    For those that think the competition is broken, why not declare who you think should have won this year, then work backwards to come with a method by which they would have won.

    This...

    Once 'They've' decided what it's supposed to reward, the rest of the question is easy...
    It's been stated numerous times - someone who was actually riding to try to win it not someone who picked up points as part of their GC campaign. If Pog was deliberately riding to win the KoM as well as yellow then great but it was just a byproduct of wnning the two main MTFs.
    That's not actually answering the question Pross. If it was then give it to the rider whose total Average Watts was the highest percentage of their FTP.

    What sort of cycling is it supposed to reward?

    (god damn!)

    But isn't it more about what it's going to bring to the race rather than what kind of rider it is supposed to reward.

    Going back to the OPs initial suggestion maybe that has got merit because it creates a succession of sprints on any decent climb - I meant you never know how it will work out and there can always be unintended consequences but you can see the logic in it.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 26,376



    Have you read the first post on this thread . I suggest you do 😜

    You can't expect me to remember that far back
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Lanterne_RogueLanterne_Rogue Posts: 3,688
    RichN95. said:

    Green Jersey seems to get tinkered with a lot more to keep it balanced. Or do I just not bother checking the rules for polka dots and it's constantly flexing?


    The advantage they have with the green jersey is where they place the intermediate spirints. Sagan kept winning routinely so now they have moved most before the big climbs.

    Here's an idea, then, for the King of Mountains. On a final MTF, rather than have double points, have instead an intermediate 'sprint' somewhere on that final climb with bonus points there. Say 3-4km from the finish, or maybe at the end of the steepest part. Maybe do it for all final climbs, not just MTFs.
    There's probably some merit in that idea - it might spice the racing up a little if the break go extra hard to try and get there before the GC boys catch up, instead of grimly hanging on to be overtaken 2km from the end instead. It'd look less obviously fake on the climbs where there are level sections / short descents part way up.

  • ddraverddraver Posts: 24,796
    edited July 2021

    ddraver said:

    Pross said:

    ddraver said:

    For those that think the competition is broken, why not declare who you think should have won this year, then work backwards to come with a method by which they would have won.

    This...

    Once 'They've' decided what it's supposed to reward, the rest of the question is easy...
    It's been stated numerous times - someone who was actually riding to try to win it not someone who picked up points as part of their GC campaign. If Pog was deliberately riding to win the KoM as well as yellow then great but it was just a byproduct of wnning the two main MTFs.
    That's not actually answering the question Pross. If it was then give it to the rider whose total Average Watts was the highest percentage of their FTP.

    What sort of cycling is it supposed to reward?

    (god damn!)

    But isn't it more about what it's going to bring to the race rather than what kind of rider it is supposed to reward.

    Going back to the OPs initial suggestion maybe that has got merit because it creates a succession of sprints on any decent climb - I meant you never know how it will work out and there can always be unintended consequences but you can see the logic in it.
    I don't see the difference to be honest...

    To your second point, there will always be a way to win the competition that is less spectacular. That's true of all the classifications...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • mididoctorsmididoctors Posts: 12,908

    RichN95. said:

    Green Jersey seems to get tinkered with a lot more to keep it balanced. Or do I just not bother checking the rules for polka dots and it's constantly flexing?


    The advantage they have with the green jersey is where they place the intermediate spirints. Sagan kept winning routinely so now they have moved most before the big climbs.

    Here's an idea, then, for the King of Mountains. On a final MTF, rather than have double points, have instead an intermediate 'sprint' somewhere on that final climb with bonus points there. Say 3-4km from the finish, or maybe at the end of the steepest part. Maybe do it for all final climbs, not just MTFs.
    There's probably some merit in that idea - it might spice the racing up a little if the break go extra hard to try and get there before the GC boys catch up, instead of grimly hanging on to be overtaken 2km from the end instead. It'd look less obviously fake on the climbs where there are level sections / short descents part way up.

    I already outlined this in the thread original post .
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • bigmatbigmat Posts: 5,132
    Just needs a tweak. Remove double points for MTF. You then run the risk of a less prestigious winner, in which case tweak it back again. It's about getting the balance between having the strongest candidate winning and it not being a procession - they have been meddling with the green jersey classification for years to achieve that (made it so that Cav couldn't win even when taking 6 stages then changed it back again when Sagan was winning every year).
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 11,918
    I'm broadly in favour of finish climbs having a higher weighting, but x2 is over doing it. I'd still like to see climbers trying to get a placing after the GC has caught them, so let's extend the points range (currently only 8 places for an HC climb)

    Poels finished 18th on both HC finishes, if there were points to eg 16 places he might have tried to hang in longer.
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 63,444 Lives Here

    How about this.

    KOM points distributed as they are now, without the double points at the MTF/last climb.

    BUT - you have a "how many people are with you at the KOM line" modulator

    You get:

    100% of the points available as you cross the line if you are solo (so a timeable gap between you and the next rider)
    60% for 2-5 riders in your group.
    40% for 6-10 riders in your group.
    20% 10+ riders in your group.

    I've just made this up so there will likely be problems - thoughts?

    So, picture the example.

    Rider 1 crosses the KOM line of the Tourmalet solo and gets 20 points

    Rider 2,3,4 cross the line in those respective positions, but they are in a group of 3, so they would get 15,12,10 points normally, but this time they get 9,7,6 respectively.

    Rider 5 across the finish line is actually leading the peloton of 30 riders over the top so he gets 2 points (1.6 points rounded up).

    You could maybe change the point available to avoid fractions.

    I have spotted a fairly major flaw in this plan.

    Say you are coming to the line with a group of or 4.

    You are better off dropping back and going over the line solo. not ideal
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 24,796
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 10,549

    I'm broadly in favour of finish climbs having a higher weighting, but x2 is over doing it. I'd still like to see climbers trying to get a placing after the GC has caught them, so let's extend the points range (currently only 8 places for an HC climb)

    Poels finished 18th on both HC finishes, if there were points to eg 16 places he might have tried to hang in longer.

    I think there's a lot of merit in this. The green jersey points go out a lot further don't they - doesn't seem to make sense for the HC mountain top points to go only down to 8 (although it makes sense for shorter climbs.

    Those HC finishes are pretty much the most prestigious finishes in the race already, so anything which increases the competition for finishing position has to be a good thing surely
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 10,549
    Although it might encourage the polka dots to just sit in with the GC group as long as possible for a higher finishing position. But they pretty much do that anyway don't they.
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 21,460
    edited July 2021

    I'm broadly in favour of finish climbs having a higher weighting, but x2 is over doing it. I'd still like to see climbers trying to get a placing after the GC has caught them, so let's extend the points range (currently only 8 places for an HC climb)

    Poels finished 18th on both HC finishes, if there were points to eg 16 places he might have tried to hang in longer.

    Make HC summit finishes go down to 14th place with 30,25,22,20,18,16,14,12,10,8,6,4,2,1 points.

    Takes 20 points off Pogacar, putting him at 87 points, with Poels on 88.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 17,131

    I'm broadly in favour of finish climbs having a higher weighting, but x2 is over doing it. I'd still like to see climbers trying to get a placing after the GC has caught them, so let's extend the points range (currently only 8 places for an HC climb)

    Poels finished 18th on both HC finishes, if there were points to eg 16 places he might have tried to hang in longer.

    Make HC summit finishes go down to 14th place with 30,25,22,20,18,16,14,12,10,8,6,4,2,1 points.

    Takes 20 points off Pogacar, putting him at 87 points, with Poels on 88.
    Is that enough punishment for Pogacar though?
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 21,460

    I'm broadly in favour of finish climbs having a higher weighting, but x2 is over doing it. I'd still like to see climbers trying to get a placing after the GC has caught them, so let's extend the points range (currently only 8 places for an HC climb)

    Poels finished 18th on both HC finishes, if there were points to eg 16 places he might have tried to hang in longer.

    Make HC summit finishes go down to 14th place with 30,25,22,20,18,16,14,12,10,8,6,4,2,1 points.

    Takes 20 points off Pogacar, putting him at 87 points, with Poels on 88.
    Is that enough punishment for Pogacar though?
    He could have won it if he really wanted to by doing a bit better on that one stage where he didn't quite catch everyone on the last climb.

    It's not punishing him, it's not giving him quite as many special gc bonus points.
  • Dorset_BoyDorset_Boy Posts: 5,368
    Giving points to the top 15 or even 20 on an HC climb, and say to top 12 on Cat 1 etc seems a sensible move, and making the MTFs 1.5 x the points.
    Rick's idea is horrendously complicated and would require a lot more timing equipment and therefore is a non-starter. The rules and methodology have to be pretty simple.
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