Educashun ain't wot it used to be...

rick_chasey

Lol John if you’re working those hours on a teacher’s wage you’re the mug here

shirley_basso

I think the 105 is his 35hr engineering week + 70hr teaching week or something.

rick_chasey

shirley_basso said:

I think the 105 is his 35hr engineering week + 70hr teaching week or something.

Wait till he hears the hours working mothers do.

briantrumpet

John-I-hate-teachers in anti teacher rant shocker.

First.Aspect

Working time directive is still in force, I think. Do teachers sign a waiver?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_2003/88/EC#:~:text=It gives EU workers the,than 48 hours per week.

rjsterry

First.Aspect said:

Working time directive is still in force, I think. Do teachers sign a waiver?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_2003/88/EC#:~:text=It gives EU workers the,than 48 hours per week.

Pfft. Has there been a more ignored piece of legislation?

First.Aspect

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

Working time directive is still in force, I think. Do teachers sign a waiver?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_2003/88/EC#:~:text=It gives EU workers the,than 48 hours per week.

Pfft. Has there been a more ignored piece of legislation?

Other than the road traffic act, probably not.

TheBigBean

rick_chasey said:

shirley_basso said:

I think the 105 is his 35hr engineering week + 70hr teaching week or something.

Wait till he hears the hours working mothers do.

Within an hour per week to working fathers the last I saw.

Pross

I've never understood people who use the unpaid hours they work as a badge of honour in some way. Other than if it is an ocassional thing to hit a specific deadline it is generally either the sign of a bad company (manipulating the existing workforce for free labour on jobs they are making money on or simply going in cheap knowing they'll just get staff to work extra hours) or poor management by the employee. I get that some people enjoy their job and are happy working extra unpaid hours but if that isn't the case why stick at it? I've quit my last two jobs for this reason - bad management in both and a bullying culture alongside it in the one which I suspect is commonplace in those companies that expect staff to do significant unpaid work.

It's the same with people who never take their full annual leave entitlement. If you are working the equivalent of an extra day a week and giving up 5 days annual leave, call it 50 days a year in total, who would accept their salary being cut by the equivalent amount?

First.Aspect

Pross said:

I've never understood people who use the unpaid hours they work as a badge of honour in some way. Other than if it is an ocassional thing to hit a specific deadline it is generally either the sign of a bad company (manipulating the existing workforce for free labour on jobs they are making money on or simply going in cheap knowing they'll just get staff to work extra hours) or poor management by the employee. I get that some people enjoy their job and are happy working extra unpaid hours but if that isn't the case why stick at it? I've quit my last two jobs for this reason - bad management in both and a bullying culture alongside it in the one which I suspect is commonplace in those companies that expect staff to do significant unpaid work.

It's the same with people who never take their full annual leave entitlement. If you are working the equivalent of an extra day a week and giving up 5 days annual leave, call it 50 days a year in total, who would accept their salary being cut by the equivalent amount?

A lot of people are frogs in a pan of water being brought the boil, though. Particularly where there is a culture within a company.

I had a 2 month work crisis earlier this year. I've only just dug myself out. I reckon I was working nearly 80% as hard as a teacher over that period, it was brutal.

elbowloh

Pross said:

I've never understood people who use the unpaid hours they work as a badge of honour in some way. Other than if it is an ocassional thing to hit a specific deadline it is generally either the sign of a bad company (manipulating the existing workforce for free labour on jobs they are making money on or simply going in cheap knowing they'll just get staff to work extra hours) or poor management by the employee. I get that some people enjoy their job and are happy working extra unpaid hours but if that isn't the case why stick at it? I've quit my last two jobs for this reason - bad management in both and a bullying culture alongside it in the one which I suspect is commonplace in those companies that expect staff to do significant unpaid work.

It's the same with people who never take their full annual leave entitlement. If you are working the equivalent of an extra day a week and giving up 5 days annual leave, call it 50 days a year in total, who would accept their salary being cut by the equivalent amount?

This.

As someone who's job has very much to do with developing efficient processes, if i see everyone doing long hours every day above the contracted hours, it's a sign of something being wrong. Not enough staff, inefficient processes or, in my mind, a poor culture praising hours worked rather than the quality / productiveness of that work.

surrey_commuter

maybe I am going to inadvertently answer the question in the topic subject line but if that was written in my contract i would see it as a part time job as by my maths it is a 6 hour day 4 days a week.

Every teacher’s contract specifies 1295 hours per year over 195 days (directed time, under the control of the head teacher).

Pross

surrey_commuter said:

maybe I am going to inadvertently answer the question in the topic subject line but if that was written in my contract i would see it as a part time job as by my maths it is a 6 hour day 4 days a week.

Every teacher’s contract specifies 1295 hours per year over 195 days (directed time, under the control of the head teacher).

Just did a quick check of my contracted hours and taking into account my (very generous by private sector) annual leave plus bank holidays it would be 1672.5 hours per year so 29% higher by my reckoning.

johngti

surrey_commuter said:

maybe I am going to inadvertently answer the question in the topic subject line but if that was written in my contract i would see it as a part time job as by my maths it is a 6 hour day 4 days a week.

Every teacher’s contract specifies 1295 hours per year over 195 days (directed time, under the control of the head teacher).

Yeah. That’s directed time where we can get told what to do by the head teacher. We’re also expected to do whatever else is needed to efficiently discharge our duties, so marking/lesson planning/extracurricular stuff. The earlier in your career, the longer some of that takes.

I wasn’t claiming that this directed time was a lot, btw. And I know there’s plenty that work harder. Don’t know how it turned into me having a moan.

rjsterry

surrey_commuter said:

maybe I am going to inadvertently answer the question in the topic subject line but if that was written in my contract i would see it as a part time job as by my maths it is a 6 hour day 4 days a week.

Every teacher’s contract specifies 1295 hours per year over 195 days (directed time, under the control of the head teacher).

I think that's just the 'school day' hours, rather than the whole working day.

john80

rjsterry said:

john80 said:

johngti said:

Oh, and teaching 21 hours per week is the actual, in the class in front of kids teaching bit. There’s routine marking and preparation on top of that which adds another 15-20 hours plus meetings and other responsibilities. So a typical working week is more like 50-55 hours. Newer teachers are probably doing more like 60-65 hours. Every teacher’s contract specifies 1295 hours per year over 195 days (directed time, under the control of the head teacher). But every contract includes a clause about doing whatever else is needed for the efficient delivery of the role. Nobody works for 1295 hours per year.

Sorry, didn’t mean to rant.

Yet another vast over inflation in hours calculation right there. Let's assume you have Sunday off the you are working slightly under or over 10 per day. If you have a commute then you are working 12 hour days. Bullshitting on hours does not impress anyone.

I have yet to know a teacher personally that books these hours over the year and this is of a sample size of at least 20 teachers across primary and secondary education.

Follow them around with a stopwatch did you? 8 till 8, door to door is hardly that unusual in any profession.

I hate to burst your bubble but it is not the norm in a lot of professions to be working 12 hours days door to door outside of London. Christ none of the solicitors or accountants I know do this. But you crack on.

john80

Have the teachers on here rowed back on their 50-55 and 60-65 hour working weeks yet or are they still claiming they work that.

rjsterry

john80 said:

rjsterry said:

john80 said:

johngti said:

Oh, and teaching 21 hours per week is the actual, in the class in front of kids teaching bit. There’s routine marking and preparation on top of that which adds another 15-20 hours plus meetings and other responsibilities. So a typical working week is more like 50-55 hours. Newer teachers are probably doing more like 60-65 hours. Every teacher’s contract specifies 1295 hours per year over 195 days (directed time, under the control of the head teacher). But every contract includes a clause about doing whatever else is needed for the efficient delivery of the role. Nobody works for 1295 hours per year.

Sorry, didn’t mean to rant.

Yet another vast over inflation in hours calculation right there. Let's assume you have Sunday off the you are working slightly under or over 10 per day. If you have a commute then you are working 12 hour days. Bullshitting on hours does not impress anyone.

I have yet to know a teacher personally that books these hours over the year and this is of a sample size of at least 20 teachers across primary and secondary education.

Follow them around with a stopwatch did you? 8 till 8, door to door is hardly that unusual in any profession.

I hate to burst your bubble but it is not the norm in a lot of professions to be working 12 hours days door to door outside of London. Christ none of the solicitors or accountants I know do this. But you crack on.

Quite possibly. London is a big place, though. ~1/6 of the entire UK population. The commuter trains are still full (Covid notwithstanding) at 7pm.

pblakeney

Pross said:

surrey_commuter said:

maybe I am going to inadvertently answer the question in the topic subject line but if that was written in my contract i would see it as a part time job as by my maths it is a 6 hour day 4 days a week.

Every teacher’s contract specifies 1295 hours per year over 195 days (directed time, under the control of the head teacher).

Just did a quick check of my contracted hours and taking into account my (very generous by private sector) annual leave plus bank holidays it would be 1672.5 hours per year so 29% higher by my reckoning.

My standard was 2070 hours. 45 x 46 weeks but I was hourly paid, so no unpaid OT.
Tapering down now so only 1702, 37 x 46 weeks.
Interesting that I consider this as low hours since I spent years doing 55 hours as standard and 60+ was not uncommon.

elbowloh

rjsterry said:

john80 said:

rjsterry said:

john80 said:

johngti said:

Oh, and teaching 21 hours per week is the actual, in the class in front of kids teaching bit. There’s routine marking and preparation on top of that which adds another 15-20 hours plus meetings and other responsibilities. So a typical working week is more like 50-55 hours. Newer teachers are probably doing more like 60-65 hours. Every teacher’s contract specifies 1295 hours per year over 195 days (directed time, under the control of the head teacher). But every contract includes a clause about doing whatever else is needed for the efficient delivery of the role. Nobody works for 1295 hours per year.

Sorry, didn’t mean to rant.

Yet another vast over inflation in hours calculation right there. Let's assume you have Sunday off the you are working slightly under or over 10 per day. If you have a commute then you are working 12 hour days. Bullshitting on hours does not impress anyone.

I have yet to know a teacher personally that books these hours over the year and this is of a sample size of at least 20 teachers across primary and secondary education.

Follow them around with a stopwatch did you? 8 till 8, door to door is hardly that unusual in any profession.

I hate to burst your bubble but it is not the norm in a lot of professions to be working 12 hours days door to door outside of London. Christ none of the solicitors or accountants I know do this. But you crack on.

Quite possibly. London is a big place, though. ~1/6 of the entire UK population. The commuter trains are still full (Covid notwithstanding) at 7pm.

My normal day when I used to commute daily was 06.30 to 19.00 door to door, 3.5 hours of that traveling.

Pross

pblakeney said:

Pross said:

surrey_commuter said:

maybe I am going to inadvertently answer the question in the topic subject line but if that was written in my contract i would see it as a part time job as by my maths it is a 6 hour day 4 days a week.

Every teacher’s contract specifies 1295 hours per year over 195 days (directed time, under the control of the head teacher).

Just did a quick check of my contracted hours and taking into account my (very generous by private sector) annual leave plus bank holidays it would be 1672.5 hours per year so 29% higher by my reckoning.

My standard was 2070 hours. 45 x 46 weeks but I was hourly paid, so no unpaid OT.
Tapering down now so only 1702, 37 x 46 weeks.
Interesting that I consider this as low hours since I spent years doing 55 hours as standard and 60+ was not uncommon.

I can see the attraction if contracting on an hourly rate. Doing it to maximise profits for a PLC is a mug's game.

pblakeney

Pross said:

pblakeney said:

Pross said:

surrey_commuter said:

maybe I am going to inadvertently answer the question in the topic subject line but if that was written in my contract i would see it as a part time job as by my maths it is a 6 hour day 4 days a week.

Every teacher’s contract specifies 1295 hours per year over 195 days (directed time, under the control of the head teacher).

Just did a quick check of my contracted hours and taking into account my (very generous by private sector) annual leave plus bank holidays it would be 1672.5 hours per year so 29% higher by my reckoning.

My standard was 2070 hours. 45 x 46 weeks but I was hourly paid, so no unpaid OT.
Tapering down now so only 1702, 37 x 46 weeks.
Interesting that I consider this as low hours since I spent years doing 55 hours as standard and 60+ was not uncommon.

I can see the attraction if contracting on an hourly rate. Doing it to maximise profits for a PLC is a mug's game.

That has been my opinion since 1987. Working as "permanent" staff was* a mugs game if you were confident in your ability to keep getting work.

*Guvmint/IR35 has burst that bubble for zero gain.

First.Aspect

The quality of the hours matters as well. I charge by the hour and so if I'm on the clock for a bit of work there is a minimum level of productivity I can get away with. I'm washed out after a regular 40 hour week, and in a state of mania if I have a lot more than that on for a few weeks.

Based on the lab report and exam scrip marking I had to do as a TA at uni, that was considerably less intense. Teaching in the lab was a doddle, but those were older students. Whenever I had a high maintenance class it was a window into actual teaching. Defo not for me. But I know enough to know that not all teachers' subjects will be equal.

As a scientist and in R&D, I generally found a lot more pondering time was available. This meant a 9 or 10 hour day was much less draining than 8 hours of what I do now.

The number of hours thing is largely man-points anyway.

Since I've been in a profession that literally counts what you produce in £, my perspective has changed even further from measuring input (hours spent) to measuring actual output (what you actually produce, however long you are at your desk).

elbowloh

First.Aspect said:

The quality of the hours matters as well. I charge by the hour and so if I'm on the clock for a bit of work there is a minimum level of productivity I can get away with. I'm washed out after a regular 40 hour week, and in a state of mania if I have a lot more than that on for a few weeks.

Based on the lab report and exam scrip marking I had to do as a TA at uni, that was considerably less intense. Teaching in the lab was a doddle, but those were older students. Whenever I had a high maintenance class it was a window into actual teaching. Defo not for me. But I know enough to know that not all teachers' subjects will be equal.

As a scientist and in R&D, I generally found a lot more pondering time was available. This meant a 9 or 10 hour day was much less draining than 8 hours of what I do now.

The number of hours thing is largely man-points anyway.

Since I've been in a profession that literally counts what you produce in £, my perspective has changed even further from measuring input (hours spent) to measuring actual output (what you actually produce, however long you are at your desk).

I didn't know you worked at the mint.

rick_chasey

https://twitter.com/jdportes/status/1400751086667960326?s=21

johngti

First.Aspect said:

.
Based on the lab report and exam scrip marking I had to do as a TA at uni, that was considerably less intense. Teaching in the lab was a doddle, but those were older students. Whenever I had a high maintenance class it was a window into actual teaching. Defo not for me. But I know enough to know that not all teachers' subjects will be equal.

Marking is dead easy - just find some space and get into a rhythm and time flies. Preparing lessons takes a fair while but again, easy part of the job in the sense that it’s just you, your thoughts and maybe a computer or paper (I’m old school, I like writing things down). But one of the reasons I really like my current job is that I can motivate 31 students in the room to focus and work on their maths because it’s a grammar school and they arrive with a fair amount of intrinsic motivation in place. I’ve worked in schools at other times in my career where it was irrelevant how much marking/feedback/prep I did, every lesson was a massive battle. It gets tiring when you’re doing that for 23 hours per week (actual teaching load - not including the ancillary stuff).

Never had a punch thrown at me though, unlike (apparently) an increasing proportion of paramedics. Always someone who’s job is tougher.

surrey_commuter

Pross said:

pblakeney said:

Pross said:

surrey_commuter said:

maybe I am going to inadvertently answer the question in the topic subject line but if that was written in my contract i would see it as a part time job as by my maths it is a 6 hour day 4 days a week.

Every teacher’s contract specifies 1295 hours per year over 195 days (directed time, under the control of the head teacher).

Just did a quick check of my contracted hours and taking into account my (very generous by private sector) annual leave plus bank holidays it would be 1672.5 hours per year so 29% higher by my reckoning.

My standard was 2070 hours. 45 x 46 weeks but I was hourly paid, so no unpaid OT.
Tapering down now so only 1702, 37 x 46 weeks.
Interesting that I consider this as low hours since I spent years doing 55 hours as standard and 60+ was not uncommon.

I can see the attraction if contracting on an hourly rate. Doing it to maximise profits for a PLC is a mug's game.

It is not that black and white, it gets noticed if you act like a ‘70s car worker and do the bare minimum. I don’t work ina long hours culture so I am talking 09:15 rather than 09:30 and 17:45 rather than 17:30.

We can earn commission equal to more than half of basic so you are not just working to profit the man.

in my experience if you want to get on in life you have to go above and beyond the bare minimum.

pblakeney

surrey_commuter said:

in my experience if you want to get on in life you have to go above and beyond the bare minimum.

In the contracting game you don't do unpaid hours but if your productivity isn't up to scratch then you won't last long. I consider that to be more efficient.

surrey_commuter

pblakeney said:

surrey_commuter said:

in my experience if you want to get on in life you have to go above and beyond the bare minimum.

In the contracting game you don't do unpaid hours but if your productivity isn't up to scratch then you won't last long. I consider that to be more efficient.

Sorry, I thought it was obvious I was referring to corporates

pblakeney

surrey_commuter said:

pblakeney said:

surrey_commuter said:

in my experience if you want to get on in life you have to go above and beyond the bare minimum.

In the contracting game you don't do unpaid hours but if your productivity isn't up to scratch then you won't last long. I consider that to be more efficient.

Sorry, I thought it was obvious I was referring to corporates

Not a dig, just a comment on productivity.
I've worked with plenty corporates gaming the system while producing nothing.
Gaming as in hob nobbing with the right people, attending all the right meetings and courses, learning buzzword bingo etc, etc.... Hours mean nothing.