Educashun ain't wot it used to be...

rjsterry

First.Aspect said:

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

DeVlaeminck said:

Between 2011 and 2019 the percentage of first class degrees rose from 16% to 30% - huge credit to universities for such a huge improvement in teaching quality ?? I mean who are they kidding.

Mostly driven by the newer ones I think. Was always about 25% where I did mine, but some friends did courses where only one or two were offered.

The end result of that inflation is We are right back where we all started - employers look at the reputation of the university and the grade together as a whole.

Mind you we hired some people with firsts from Russell Group unis and my god. They don't graduate with a degree certificate, they given them a spoon instead, so you can more easily spoon feed them solutions to any problem they encounter.

I realise a lot of people don't have a portfolio to get them on to the interview list, but maybe employers need to be a bit more creative. "Send us a CV and one side of A4 on X".

A CV is just a first cut. Who would want to read 200 pages of inspirational bilge from each of 200 applicants?

There's a lot of limited thinking going on here. Exams, just as in life, test a mix of intelligence and application. They also filter for socioeconomic status and luck, but that's another story. So do all other assessment methods.

Fair point that a moving 5 year window is all anyone cares about. Frankly in job interviews GCSEs are pretty much irrelevant entirely.

If your first cut still leaves you with 200 to choose from, clearly it's not doing much cutting. I think you would know within a few lines whether it was worth persevering.

briantrumpet

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

DeVlaeminck said:

Between 2011 and 2019 the percentage of first class degrees rose from 16% to 30% - huge credit to universities for such a huge improvement in teaching quality ?? I mean who are they kidding.

Mostly driven by the newer ones I think. Was always about 25% where I did mine, but some friends did courses where only one or two were offered.

The end result of that inflation is We are right back where we all started - employers look at the reputation of the university and the grade together as a whole.

Mind you we hired some people with firsts from Russell Group unis and my god. They don't graduate with a degree certificate, they given them a spoon instead, so you can more easily spoon feed them solutions to any problem they encounter.

I realise a lot of people don't have a portfolio to get them on to the interview list, but maybe employers need to be a bit more creative. "Send us a CV and one side of A4 on X".

A CV is just a first cut. Who would want to read 200 pages of inspirational bilge from each of 200 applicants?

There's a lot of limited thinking going on here. Exams, just as in life, test a mix of intelligence and application. They also filter for socioeconomic status and luck, but that's another story. So do all other assessment methods.

Fair point that a moving 5 year window is all anyone cares about. Frankly in job interviews GCSEs are pretty much irrelevant entirely.

If your first cut still leaves you with 200 to choose from, clearly it's not doing much cutting. I think you would know within a few lines whether it was worth persevering.

That's easy. You just throw out any with the word 'passionate' in the first few lines, and pick the ones who admit they have doubts about anything.

pblakeney

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

DeVlaeminck said:

Between 2011 and 2019 the percentage of first class degrees rose from 16% to 30% - huge credit to universities for such a huge improvement in teaching quality ?? I mean who are they kidding.

Mostly driven by the newer ones I think. Was always about 25% where I did mine, but some friends did courses where only one or two were offered.

The end result of that inflation is We are right back where we all started - employers look at the reputation of the university and the grade together as a whole.

Mind you we hired some people with firsts from Russell Group unis and my god. They don't graduate with a degree certificate, they given them a spoon instead, so you can more easily spoon feed them solutions to any problem they encounter.

I realise a lot of people don't have a portfolio to get them on to the interview list, but maybe employers need to be a bit more creative. "Send us a CV and one side of A4 on X".

A CV is just a first cut. Who would want to read 200 pages of inspirational bilge from each of 200 applicants?

There's a lot of limited thinking going on here. Exams, just as in life, test a mix of intelligence and application. They also filter for socioeconomic status and luck, but that's another story. So do all other assessment methods.

Fair point that a moving 5 year window is all anyone cares about. Frankly in job interviews GCSEs are pretty much irrelevant entirely.

If your first cut still leaves you with 200 to choose from, clearly it's not doing much cutting. I think you would know within a few lines whether it was worth persevering.

I was once told by a recruiter that any C.V. of 4 pages or more went straight in the bin.
1 page preferred, 2 pages to be practical, 3 pages if necessary.

elbowloh

oxoman said:

As FA suggests, Frankly in job interviews GCSEs are pretty much irrelevant entirely. Once an individual leaves education and goes into work training / apprenticeship etc, the only thing that matters is how they progress from that point onwards. Anything from school is pretty much irrelevant from that point forward.

Yes, but some people won't give you the interview if you don't have the minimum number of GCSEs or A levels on your CV.

morstar

pblakeney said:

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

DeVlaeminck said:

Between 2011 and 2019 the percentage of first class degrees rose from 16% to 30% - huge credit to universities for such a huge improvement in teaching quality ?? I mean who are they kidding.

Mostly driven by the newer ones I think. Was always about 25% where I did mine, but some friends did courses where only one or two were offered.

The end result of that inflation is We are right back where we all started - employers look at the reputation of the university and the grade together as a whole.

Mind you we hired some people with firsts from Russell Group unis and my god. They don't graduate with a degree certificate, they given them a spoon instead, so you can more easily spoon feed them solutions to any problem they encounter.

I realise a lot of people don't have a portfolio to get them on to the interview list, but maybe employers need to be a bit more creative. "Send us a CV and one side of A4 on X".

A CV is just a first cut. Who would want to read 200 pages of inspirational bilge from each of 200 applicants?

There's a lot of limited thinking going on here. Exams, just as in life, test a mix of intelligence and application. They also filter for socioeconomic status and luck, but that's another story. So do all other assessment methods.

Fair point that a moving 5 year window is all anyone cares about. Frankly in job interviews GCSEs are pretty much irrelevant entirely.

If your first cut still leaves you with 200 to choose from, clearly it's not doing much cutting. I think you would know within a few lines whether it was worth persevering.

I was once told by a recruiter that any C.V. of 4 pages or more went straight in the bin.
1 page preferred, 2 pages to be practical, 3 pages if necessary.

Can be a lot down to personal preference of the hirer.
Had mine down to one page for a long while and regularly heard it was light on detail so back at a more standard 2.

Read a 12 page rambling epic once.
Had discarded the applicant within about 3 lines but was fascinated to see where the remainder went. It was 12 pages of very bad.

pblakeney

morstar said:

Read a 12 page rambling epic once.
Had discarded the applicant within about 3 lines but was fascinated to see where the remainder went. It was 12 pages of very bad.

🤣🤣🤣

john80

A uni lecturer once told me a degree merely shows you can self motivate yourself over a period of multiple years to reach a goal. He also told us that the was to give us the fundamentals of a number of basic theory's and show us how to think critically as this is a skill that will allow you to solve any engineering problem you encounter in future employment.

pinno

[The usual suspects going around in circles].

My mother qualified as a teacher in 1962.
In later years, she would compare A level papers with those she kept from early in her career to more recent one's.
She noted that the A level papers have got much easier.

Lets face it, we're behind many in the international tables.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-50563833

briantrumpet

The A-level maths paper I took in 1981 has got much harder since I took it. I've got absolutely no idea what it's on about at all.

rick_chasey

https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1396845311901962250?s=21

Dorset_Boy

Should the 'Froms' not actually be 'Tos', because otherwise it isn't making sense?

pblakeney

Dorset_Boy said:

Should the 'Froms' not actually be 'Tos', because otherwise it isn't making sense?

Educashun isn't what it used to be. 🤣
Should be a "from" and a "to" to give context.

pinkbikini

pblakeney said:

Dorset_Boy said:

Should the 'Froms' not actually be 'Tos', because otherwise it isn't making sense?

Educashun isn't what it used to be. 🤣
Should be a "from" and a "to" to give context.

Any potential new targets haven’t been set, therefore article quotes the changes ‘from’ current values. Back when I did my educashun they put value on independent research, along with learning facts, so you could form a coherent argument!

Good old Rishi, sticking it to the dirty Trots to fund continual adult education so ballet dancers can retrain as cyber-security analysts.

pblakeney

pinkbikini said:

pblakeney said:

Dorset_Boy said:

Should the 'Froms' not actually be 'Tos', because otherwise it isn't making sense?

Educashun isn't what it used to be. 🤣
Should be a "from" and a "to" to give context.

Any potential new targets haven’t been set, ...

Ah. So yet another clickbait-non-story.
(The OP is a screenshot/photo, not a link)

TheBigBean

rick_chasey said:

https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1396845311901962250?s=21

Who would have thought that they would have so many unpaid loans?

rjsterry

john80 said:

A uni lecturer once told me a degree merely shows you can self motivate yourself over a period of multiple years to reach a goal. He also told us that the was to give us the fundamentals of a number of basic theory's and show us how to think critically as this is a skill that will allow you to solve any engineering problem you encounter in future employment.

Agree that is the key skill, along with an ability to self-teach as things are always changing. That said, I've been a bit disappointed with the level of basic technical knowledge of construction that new graduates have - the stuff that people should just know without having to look it up.

rick_chasey

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1396845311901962250?s=21

Who would have thought that they would have so many unpaid loans?

So when I keep saying people don't realise how little under 35s earn (in aggregate)....


It is a policy that seems targeted very specifically at the least Tory voting cohort in the country - young, city living, university educated, who have to earn that kind of money just to keep your head above water because of the cost of rent etc.

shirley_basso

rjsterry said:

john80 said:

A uni lecturer once told me a degree merely shows you can self motivate yourself over a period of multiple years to reach a goal. He also told us that the was to give us the fundamentals of a number of basic theory's and show us how to think critically as this is a skill that will allow you to solve any engineering problem you encounter in future employment.

Agree that is the key skill, along with an ability to self-teach as things are always changing. That said, I've been a bit disappointed with the level of basic technical knowledge of construction that new graduates have - the stuff that people should just know without having to look it up.

University seems to have very, very little practical / vocational application.

pinkbikini

pblakeney said:

pinkbikini said:

pblakeney said:

Dorset_Boy said:

Should the 'Froms' not actually be 'Tos', because otherwise it isn't making sense?

Educashun isn't what it used to be. 🤣
Should be a "from" and a "to" to give context.

Any potential new targets haven’t been set, ...

Ah. So yet another clickbait-non-story.
(The OP is a screenshot/photo, not a link)

It’s a prediction on what’s likely to happen, based on Treasury desire to limit exposure to unpaid loans (forecast to rise due to introduction of continuous adult learning courses).

If you do some research you’ll find it’s not a ‘clickbait non-story’ at all.

rjsterry

shirley_basso said:

rjsterry said:

john80 said:

A uni lecturer once told me a degree merely shows you can self motivate yourself over a period of multiple years to reach a goal. He also told us that the was to give us the fundamentals of a number of basic theory's and show us how to think critically as this is a skill that will allow you to solve any engineering problem you encounter in future employment.

Agree that is the key skill, along with an ability to self-teach as things are always changing. That said, I've been a bit disappointed with the level of basic technical knowledge of construction that new graduates have - the stuff that people should just know without having to look it up.

University seems to have very, very little practical / vocational application.

In my case it's very specifically a vocational course and pretty much the only route into the profession.

First.Aspect

shirley_basso said:

rjsterry said:

john80 said:

A uni lecturer once told me a degree merely shows you can self motivate yourself over a period of multiple years to reach a goal. He also told us that the was to give us the fundamentals of a number of basic theory's and show us how to think critically as this is a skill that will allow you to solve any engineering problem you encounter in future employment.

Agree that is the key skill, along with an ability to self-teach as things are always changing. That said, I've been a bit disappointed with the level of basic technical knowledge of construction that new graduates have - the stuff that people should just know without having to look it up.

University seems to have very, very little practical / vocational application.

Depends whether you are brave enough to take a degree with practical or vocational application. If you take a fluffy degree, end up £30k down, and it isn't relevant to any actual employment, who is to blame?

Could still be worthwhile to demonstrate to employers that you have patience. And could be worth it if you actually like what you are studying.

But students do go in with their eyes open, don't they?

shirley_basso

rjsterry said:

shirley_basso said:

rjsterry said:

john80 said:

A uni lecturer once told me a degree merely shows you can self motivate yourself over a period of multiple years to reach a goal. He also told us that the was to give us the fundamentals of a number of basic theory's and show us how to think critically as this is a skill that will allow you to solve any engineering problem you encounter in future employment.

Agree that is the key skill, along with an ability to self-teach as things are always changing. That said, I've been a bit disappointed with the level of basic technical knowledge of construction that new graduates have - the stuff that people should just know without having to look it up.

University seems to have very, very little practical / vocational application.

In my case it's very specifically a vocational course and pretty much the only route into the profession.

Hmm - that is odd. I guess where you do a strongly vocational course, you should do a year of work experience as part of it?

First.Aspect

shirley_basso said:

rjsterry said:

shirley_basso said:

rjsterry said:

john80 said:

A uni lecturer once told me a degree merely shows you can self motivate yourself over a period of multiple years to reach a goal. He also told us that the was to give us the fundamentals of a number of basic theory's and show us how to think critically as this is a skill that will allow you to solve any engineering problem you encounter in future employment.

Agree that is the key skill, along with an ability to self-teach as things are always changing. That said, I've been a bit disappointed with the level of basic technical knowledge of construction that new graduates have - the stuff that people should just know without having to look it up.

Universisty seems to have very, very little practical / vocational application.

In my case it's very specifically a vocational course and pretty much the only route into the profession.

Hmm - that is odd. I guess where you do a strongly vocational course, you should do a year of work experience as part of it?

Are you talking about the year of industrial experience in most science degrees? Or the year of scientific research in others, where you get experience of research in science.

shirley_basso

First.Aspect said:

shirley_basso said:

rjsterry said:

shirley_basso said:

rjsterry said:

john80 said:

A uni lecturer once told me a degree merely shows you can self motivate yourself over a period of multiple years to reach a goal. He also told us that the was to give us the fundamentals of a number of basic theory's and show us how to think critically as this is a skill that will allow you to solve any engineering problem you encounter in future employment.

Agree that is the key skill, along with an ability to self-teach as things are always changing. That said, I've been a bit disappointed with the level of basic technical knowledge of construction that new graduates have - the stuff that people should just know without having to look it up.

Universisty seems to have very, very little practical / vocational application.

In my case it's very specifically a vocational course and pretty much the only route into the profession.

Hmm - that is odd. I guess where you do a strongly vocational course, you should do a year of work experience as part of it?

Are you talking about the year of industrial experience in most science degrees? Or the year of scientific research in others, where you get experience of research in science.

Specific to RJS perhaps if people are being turned out of a vocational degree with no vocational skills they need a bit more practise as part of their degree?

morstar

First.Aspect said:

shirley_basso said:

rjsterry said:

john80 said:

A uni lecturer once told me a degree merely shows you can self motivate yourself over a period of multiple years to reach a goal. He also told us that the was to give us the fundamentals of a number of basic theory's and show us how to think critically as this is a skill that will allow you to solve any engineering problem you encounter in future employment.

Agree that is the key skill, along with an ability to self-teach as things are always changing. That said, I've been a bit disappointed with the level of basic technical knowledge of construction that new graduates have - the stuff that people should just know without having to look it up.

University seems to have very, very little practical / vocational application.

Depends whether you are brave enough to take a degree with practical or vocational application. If you take a fluffy degree, end up £30k down, and it isn't relevant to any actual employment, who is to blame?

Could still be worthwhile to demonstrate to employers that you have patience. And could be worth it if you actually like what you are studying.

But students do go in with their eyes open, don't they?

Yeah, but conversely, students are strongly encouraged to go to uni.
Even in the late 80’s when I was opting to take a year out the pressure was relentless to apply to uni.
It’s only more so these days and you have to be strong willed to resist.
For me, this myopia about having to go to uni and it being the best life opportunity for all is part of the problem.
Some of the best days of my life for sure but I think a lot of people should avoid the debt and do something different to gaining a useless (non specific) degree.

briantrumpet

morstar said:

First.Aspect said:

shirley_basso said:

rjsterry said:

john80 said:

A uni lecturer once told me a degree merely shows you can self motivate yourself over a period of multiple years to reach a goal. He also told us that the was to give us the fundamentals of a number of basic theory's and show us how to think critically as this is a skill that will allow you to solve any engineering problem you encounter in future employment.

Agree that is the key skill, along with an ability to self-teach as things are always changing. That said, I've been a bit disappointed with the level of basic technical knowledge of construction that new graduates have - the stuff that people should just know without having to look it up.

University seems to have very, very little practical / vocational application.

Depends whether you are brave enough to take a degree with practical or vocational application. If you take a fluffy degree, end up £30k down, and it isn't relevant to any actual employment, who is to blame?

Could still be worthwhile to demonstrate to employers that you have patience. And could be worth it if you actually like what you are studying.

But students do go in with their eyes open, don't they?

Yeah, but conversely, students are strongly encouraged to go to uni.
Even in the late 80’s when I was opting to take a year out the pressure was relentless to apply to uni.
It’s only more so these days and you have to be strong willed to resist.
For me, this myopia about having to go to uni and it being the best life opportunity for all is part of the problem.
Some of the best days of my life for sure but I think a lot of people should avoid the debt and do something different to gaining a useless (non specific) degree.

It was a stroke of genius: take another 40% of school leavers off the unemployment figures and finance the expansion of universities by getting the students to take out loans.

pblakeney

pinkbikini said:

pblakeney said:

pinkbikini said:

pblakeney said:

Dorset_Boy said:

Should the 'Froms' not actually be 'Tos', because otherwise it isn't making sense?

Educashun isn't what it used to be. 🤣
Should be a "from" and a "to" to give context.

Any potential new targets haven’t been set, ...

Ah. So yet another clickbait-non-story.
(The OP is a screenshot/photo, not a link)

It’s a prediction on what’s likely to happen, based on Treasury desire to limit exposure to unpaid loans (forecast to rise due to introduction of continuous adult learning courses).

If you do some research you’ll find it’s not a ‘clickbait non-story’ at all.

Was it badly worded, yes or no?
Frankly my dear.....

morstar

briantrumpet said:

morstar said:

First.Aspect said:

shirley_basso said:

rjsterry said:

john80 said:

A uni lecturer once told me a degree merely shows you can self motivate yourself over a period of multiple years to reach a goal. He also told us that the was to give us the fundamentals of a number of basic theory's and show us how to think critically as this is a skill that will allow you to solve any engineering problem you encounter in future employment.

Agree that is the key skill, along with an ability to self-teach as things are always changing. That said, I've been a bit disappointed with the level of basic technical knowledge of construction that new graduates have - the stuff that people should just know without having to look it up.

University seems to have very, very little practical / vocational application.

Depends whether you are brave enough to take a degree with practical or vocational application. If you take a fluffy degree, end up £30k down, and it isn't relevant to any actual employment, who is to blame?

Could still be worthwhile to demonstrate to employers that you have patience. And could be worth it if you actually like what you are studying.

But students do go in with their eyes open, don't they?

Yeah, but conversely, students are strongly encouraged to go to uni.
Even in the late 80’s when I was opting to take a year out the pressure was relentless to apply to uni.
It’s only more so these days and you have to be strong willed to resist.
For me, this myopia about having to go to uni and it being the best life opportunity for all is part of the problem.
Some of the best days of my life for sure but I think a lot of people should avoid the debt and do something different to gaining a useless (non specific) degree.

It was a stroke of genius: take another 40% of school leavers off the unemployment figures and finance the expansion of universities by getting the students to take out loans.

Haven’t really thought of it in quite such stark terms but yes, an interesting take.

pblakeney

briantrumpet said:

morstar said:

First.Aspect said:

shirley_basso said:

rjsterry said:

john80 said:

A uni lecturer once told me a degree merely shows you can self motivate yourself over a period of multiple years to reach a goal. He also told us that the was to give us the fundamentals of a number of basic theory's and show us how to think critically as this is a skill that will allow you to solve any engineering problem you encounter in future employment.

Agree that is the key skill, along with an ability to self-teach as things are always changing. That said, I've been a bit disappointed with the level of basic technical knowledge of construction that new graduates have - the stuff that people should just know without having to look it up.

University seems to have very, very little practical / vocational application.

Depends whether you are brave enough to take a degree with practical or vocational application. If you take a fluffy degree, end up £30k down, and it isn't relevant to any actual employment, who is to blame?

Could still be worthwhile to demonstrate to employers that you have patience. And could be worth it if you actually like what you are studying.

But students do go in with their eyes open, don't they?

Yeah, but conversely, students are strongly encouraged to go to uni.
Even in the late 80’s when I was opting to take a year out the pressure was relentless to apply to uni.
It’s only more so these days and you have to be strong willed to resist.
For me, this myopia about having to go to uni and it being the best life opportunity for all is part of the problem.
Some of the best days of my life for sure but I think a lot of people should avoid the debt and do something different to gaining a useless (non specific) degree.

It was a stroke of genius: take another 40% of school leavers off the unemployment figures and finance the expansion of universities by getting the students to take out loans.

I believe the bold part was discussed at the time.
Possibly the financial part too, but not in as much detail.

rjsterry

shirley_basso said:

rjsterry said:

shirley_basso said:

rjsterry said:

john80 said:

A uni lecturer once told me a degree merely shows you can self motivate yourself over a period of multiple years to reach a goal. He also told us that the was to give us the fundamentals of a number of basic theory's and show us how to think critically as this is a skill that will allow you to solve any engineering problem you encounter in future employment.

Agree that is the key skill, along with an ability to self-teach as things are always changing. That said, I've been a bit disappointed with the level of basic technical knowledge of construction that new graduates have - the stuff that people should just know without having to look it up.

University seems to have very, very little practical / vocational application.

In my case it's very specifically a vocational course and pretty much the only route into the profession.

Hmm - that is odd. I guess where you do a strongly vocational course, you should do a year of work experience as part of it?

Yes it's the graduates applying for that year before they do the second degree that I'm talking about. They're fine generally, and have far better visualisation skills than I started with but seem to be missing quite a bit of basic stuff like where a damp proof course should go within a wall.