Educashun ain't wot it used to be...
Comments
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Sorry what comp numbers am I giving?surrey_commuter said:
I am sure Ric was quoting a figure of £60-70k for senior accountancy positions, so allowing for pension benefits that would be worth approx £50k for a teacher.First.Aspect said:
If you'd gone into accountancy, you'd have needed to train as an accountant and earn f-all for several more years.johngti said:
None taken. Im a maths graduate with a good honours degree from a good university. I have a masters in innovation and leadership. I lead a maths department, have 11 staff that I’m responsible for. Huge level of responsibility and accountability. My pay is a lot better than average, that’s obvious. But if I’d gone into accountancy/insurance/energy/any number of other industries where mathematicians are needed, I would be earning more for an equivalent working week and at least 4 weeks holidays per year plus bank holidays etc.First.Aspect said:
No offence, but what industry equivalent are you comparing yourself to? And what do you imagine the T&Cs are like in that industry?johngti said:(Cue the “but you do get long holidays and a gold-plated pension” comments)
We don’t get paid for holidays, our salary is spread over 12 months so we don’t have zero income in July/August. Pay is really not good - I have 30 years of experience, post-grad qualifications and lead a large department in a core subject and earn well below the equivalent in industry. But I love teaching so will trade that off for job satisfaction (although even that is being put under pressure).
The pension is good, yes. There’s a perk for you.
Summer holidays are good, I probably do manage to get a proper 4-week break. I work in every other holiday. Teaching 21 hours a week plus the leadership role means that strategic stuff has to wait for a time when I can think about it properly. That plus marking exams, which every school helpfully put just before holidays, usually takes up most of the other holidays.
And yes, I know other people work hard and put in long hours but on the other side of that, I don’t spend any time criticising them or claiming that I know their job better than they do. Seems ok to do that to teachers though, doesn’t it?
But like I said, I’m happy enough with my lot in life I just resent (for want of a better word) people who don’t know the job complaining about it. I don’t criticise anyone else’s career choice.
Insurance - do you mean actuarial work? If so, the same.
And they are both in the private sector, so in addition to all the years earning nothing whilst qualifying in your spare time (while teachers do have a pretty high graduate salary starting point) you then have to hold down the job. Both are industries that actually fire people who don't perform.
You are also viewing things from the outside. Headline salaries can be quite high in a lot of professions. But then you hear of teachers earning six figures. Is that representative? Is it any more representative than the "you could earn X" as an accountant? Or is the median a lot more modest in both cases?
A better comparison would be what those professions earn in the public sector.
I am struggling to come up with a number for the % salary cut I would take in exchange for August off on top of my other holiday entitlement. 8% would be the equivalent of unpaid leave so maybe as low as 5%.
Or go the full monty and what % off salary to take a job that gave you all the school holidays off (so not 13 weeks when you want). I am struggling to see this as being worth more than 10% but in another few years with less overheads that would look like a lovely wind down to retirement.
Might as well check they're right.0 -
And 1/57 pension for every year worked which is a level of income unavailable in the private sector given the cap and interest rates.surrey_commuter said:
cheers - so as we are all in a metro, liberal elite bubble if we look at outer London a teacher would be on £30-40k and a HoD £45-65k?johngti said:M1-M6 is standard, usually start on M1 and so long as you meet appraisal targets you move up a point every year.
U1-U3 require lots of additional evidence to get to. Plus you need to have been on M6 for two years before you can apply for U1 and then it’s collecting evidence over subsequent two-year appraisal cycles to move up the upper spine.
Worst case is that it can take 12 years to get to U3 and then you have to maintain that performance to remain on it (in a growing number of schools you can be moved back down the pay spine if your performance drops).
In areas where recruitment is difficult, staff can be started at higher points on the main scale. Other relevant experience can be taken into account too, usually on a 3:1 basis. So if you were a trainer in whatever industry you came from for 6 years you’d gain two years on the pay scale.
If you want to teach a shortage subject like maths or physics, there are generous bursaries available these days. Nothing for other subjects like English from September this year though.
TLR payments are used for management/leadership roles.0 -
https://www.prospects.ac.uk/jobs-and-work-experience/job-sectors/teacher-training-and-education/how-much-do-teachers-get-paidsurrey_commuter said:
without going into personal details is it possible to post up pay scales for teachersjohngti said:
I did earn f-all for the first 5-6 years after I graduated, somewhere around 40% of what my starting salary would have been in industry and pitiful pay rises. Is it your contention that teachers don’t get training? One year post-graduate then one year on probation. The starting salary for inner London is good on paper but not for inner London.First.Aspect said:
If you'd gone into accountancy, you'd have needed to train as an accountant and earn f-all for several more years.johngti said:
None taken. Im a maths graduate with a good honours degree from a good university. I have a masters in innovation and leadership. I lead a maths department, have 11 staff that I’m responsible for. Huge level of responsibility and accountability. My pay is a lot better than average, that’s obvious. But if I’d gone into accountancy/insurance/energy/any number of other industries where mathematicians are needed, I would be earning more for an equivalent working week and at least 4 weeks holidays per year plus bank holidays etc.First.Aspect said:
No offence, but what industry equivalent are you comparing yourself to? And what do you imagine the T&Cs are like in that industry?johngti said:(Cue the “but you do get long holidays and a gold-plated pension” comments)
We don’t get paid for holidays, our salary is spread over 12 months so we don’t have zero income in July/August. Pay is really not good - I have 30 years of experience, post-grad qualifications and lead a large department in a core subject and earn well below the equivalent in industry. But I love teaching so will trade that off for job satisfaction (although even that is being put under pressure).
The pension is good, yes. There’s a perk for you.
Summer holidays are good, I probably do manage to get a proper 4-week break. I work in every other holiday. Teaching 21 hours a week plus the leadership role means that strategic stuff has to wait for a time when I can think about it properly. That plus marking exams, which every school helpfully put just before holidays, usually takes up most of the other holidays.
And yes, I know other people work hard and put in long hours but on the other side of that, I don’t spend any time criticising them or claiming that I know their job better than they do. Seems ok to do that to teachers though, doesn’t it?
But like I said, I’m happy enough with my lot in life I just resent (for want of a better word) people who don’t know the job complaining about it. I don’t criticise anyone else’s career choice.
Insurance - do you mean actuarial work? If so, the same.
And they are both in the private sector, so in addition to all the years earning nothing whilst qualifying in your spare time (while teachers do have a pretty high graduate salary starting point) you then have to hold down the job. Both are industries that actually fire people who don't perform.
You are also viewing things from the outside. Headline salaries can be quite high in a lot of professions. But then you hear of teachers earning six figures. Is that representative? Is it any more representative than the "you could earn X" as an accountant? Or is the median a lot more modest in both cases?
A better comparison would be what those professions earn in the public sector.
Also, what makes you think that teachers don’t get sacked if they underperform? The accountability systems in place are there for a reason. Do you believe that I’m muddling through my career, barely managing to keep on top of it all but happy because I’m on a cushy number knowing that I’m in it for life? Or that any teacher is?
Without exception, my peers who went into industry had training salaries higher than my starting salary, moved up in salary faster than me, bought a house before me, and were in no way busier or more stressed than me, nor did they work longer hours. Oh, and they were rewarded for doing a good job via extra pay rises and/or bonuses. I was lucky to get the odd “thanks sir”.
Three figure salaries apply to head teachers in the biggest schools. School business managers, who will generally come from the business world, get paid more than heads of department like me. Lots use it as a second career so are happy to take a pay cut. I’m yet to meet a mature trainer who says that they’re earning more. But my point is that people feel empowered to criticise teachers and teaching. I don’t generally do similarly for non-teaching professions. I love my job and get a lot of satisfaction from working with young people. Just bladdy stop having a go at us about it.
These days the starting salary is about the national average salary. I can assure you that is really good compared to a lot of professions. Lab chemist, for example. Postdoc. Lecturer. Social worker. Nurse. Trainee solicitors. It is even a bit higher than junior doctors. Want me to go on?
Most professions involve training, as in taking professional exams over several years. You didn't need a postgrad degree to get into teaching, but you do need a teaching qualification. That takes a year and there are lots of incentives to try. Over in the blink of an eye compared with some professions. Worth a punt - which is possibly why so many people do, then leave.
Most professions require some form of CPD. That's life.
So no one is having a go about your job, how well you do it or how valuable it is. But nor do I think you have a particularly raw deal, so when teachers complain, and this is something the profession is really good at, don't be surprised when people say that's normal, be quiet. And that's my point.
Regarding the "sacking" thing - best I can find is a Times article which I think is based on a FOI request. Suggests around 4 sackings a week across the entire country. There are over 500000 teachers in the UK. This means that if you took 100 random teachers, one would be fired for incompetence or misconduct every 25 years. Pretty secure job, I'd say.0 -
@surrey_commuter
“ I am sure Ric was quoting a figure of £60-70k for senior accountancy positions, so allowing for pension benefits that would be worth approx £50k for a teacher.”
My employer pays 13% of my salary into my pension, I pay an additional 10.2% from my salary. Employer contribution for me is significantly less than £10000.0 -
It does sound like quite a hard year which probably doesn't encourage applicants from other industries.First.Aspect said:
Most professions involve training, as in taking professional exams over several years. You didn't need a postgrad degree to get into teaching, but you do need a teaching qualification. That takes a year and there are lots of incentives to try. Over in the blink of an eye compared with some professions. Worth a punt - which is possibly why so many people do, then leave.
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Not quite. 1/60 on the average salary scheme and 1/80 for the final salary scheme that some still benefit from. So, yes, the pension is good. No complaints here for that.TheBigBean said:
And 1/57 pension for every year worked which is a level of income unavailable in the private sector given the cap and interest rates.surrey_commuter said:
cheers - so as we are all in a metro, liberal elite bubble if we look at outer London a teacher would be on £30-40k and a HoD £45-65k?johngti said:M1-M6 is standard, usually start on M1 and so long as you meet appraisal targets you move up a point every year.
U1-U3 require lots of additional evidence to get to. Plus you need to have been on M6 for two years before you can apply for U1 and then it’s collecting evidence over subsequent two-year appraisal cycles to move up the upper spine.
Worst case is that it can take 12 years to get to U3 and then you have to maintain that performance to remain on it (in a growing number of schools you can be moved back down the pay spine if your performance drops).
In areas where recruitment is difficult, staff can be started at higher points on the main scale. Other relevant experience can be taken into account too, usually on a 3:1 basis. So if you were a trainer in whatever industry you came from for 6 years you’d gain two years on the pay scale.
If you want to teach a shortage subject like maths or physics, there are generous bursaries available these days. Nothing for other subjects like English from September this year though.
TLR payments are used for management/leadership roles.0 -
Your pension is about 4 times the legal minimum requirement for employer contribution 3% I think). Most employers in the private sector pay the legal minimum requirement.johngti said:@surrey_commuter
“ I am sure Ric was quoting a figure of £60-70k for senior accountancy positions, so allowing for pension benefits that would be worth approx £50k for a teacher.”
My employer pays 13% of my salary into my pension, I pay an additional 10.2% from my salary. Employer contribution for me is significantly less than £10000.
So your package is about 10% higher in comparison than your headline salary suggests it is, not taking into account that the actual income when you are retired will be disproportionately high even in comparison to contributions.
So guestimating that you earn in the £60k range (you are coy on how much below 76k you earn), you know you are doing alright don't you? And that by and large people in the land of milk and honey are probably doing not much better than you even based on your headline salary?
Does it every get discussed within your profession that you might actually be being treated okay?0 -
I love my job. I love working with young people. I love passing on the joy of my subject. I’m comfortably off. When I retire my pension will be good enough to not starve or worry about heating the house. What I’ve no time for is the lazy trope that teachers do nothing and get paid for long holidays. If it’s that cushy a number, why are there shortages? And where do people get off criticising the likes of me for my career choices?First.Aspect said:
https://www.prospects.ac.uk/jobs-and-work-experience/job-sectors/teacher-training-and-education/how-much-do-teachers-get-paidsurrey_commuter said:
without going into personal details is it possible to post up pay scales for teachersjohngti said:
I did earn f-all for the first 5-6 years after I graduated, somewhere around 40% of what my starting salary would have been in industry and pitiful pay rises. Is it your contention that teachers don’t get training? One year post-graduate then one year on probation. The starting salary for inner London is good on paper but not for inner London.First.Aspect said:
If you'd gone into accountancy, you'd have needed to train as an accountant and earn f-all for several more years.johngti said:
None taken. Im a maths graduate with a good honours degree from a good university. I have a masters in innovation and leadership. I lead a maths department, have 11 staff that I’m responsible for. Huge level of responsibility and accountability. My pay is a lot better than average, that’s obvious. But if I’d gone into accountancy/insurance/energy/any number of other industries where mathematicians are needed, I would be earning more for an equivalent working week and at least 4 weeks holidays per year plus bank holidays etc.First.Aspect said:
No offence, but what industry equivalent are you comparing yourself to? And what do you imagine the T&Cs are like in that industry?johngti said:(Cue the “but you do get long holidays and a gold-plated pension” comments)
We don’t get paid for holidays, our salary is spread over 12 months so we don’t have zero income in July/August. Pay is really not good - I have 30 years of experience, post-grad qualifications and lead a large department in a core subject and earn well below the equivalent in industry. But I love teaching so will trade that off for job satisfaction (although even that is being put under pressure).
The pension is good, yes. There’s a perk for you.
Summer holidays are good, I probably do manage to get a proper 4-week break. I work in every other holiday. Teaching 21 hours a week plus the leadership role means that strategic stuff has to wait for a time when I can think about it properly. That plus marking exams, which every school helpfully put just before holidays, usually takes up most of the other holidays.
And yes, I know other people work hard and put in long hours but on the other side of that, I don’t spend any time criticising them or claiming that I know their job better than they do. Seems ok to do that to teachers though, doesn’t it?
But like I said, I’m happy enough with my lot in life I just resent (for want of a better word) people who don’t know the job complaining about it. I don’t criticise anyone else’s career choice.
Insurance - do you mean actuarial work? If so, the same.
And they are both in the private sector, so in addition to all the years earning nothing whilst qualifying in your spare time (while teachers do have a pretty high graduate salary starting point) you then have to hold down the job. Both are industries that actually fire people who don't perform.
You are also viewing things from the outside. Headline salaries can be quite high in a lot of professions. But then you hear of teachers earning six figures. Is that representative? Is it any more representative than the "you could earn X" as an accountant? Or is the median a lot more modest in both cases?
A better comparison would be what those professions earn in the public sector.
Also, what makes you think that teachers don’t get sacked if they underperform? The accountability systems in place are there for a reason. Do you believe that I’m muddling through my career, barely managing to keep on top of it all but happy because I’m on a cushy number knowing that I’m in it for life? Or that any teacher is?
Without exception, my peers who went into industry had training salaries higher than my starting salary, moved up in salary faster than me, bought a house before me, and were in no way busier or more stressed than me, nor did they work longer hours. Oh, and they were rewarded for doing a good job via extra pay rises and/or bonuses. I was lucky to get the odd “thanks sir”.
Three figure salaries apply to head teachers in the biggest schools. School business managers, who will generally come from the business world, get paid more than heads of department like me. Lots use it as a second career so are happy to take a pay cut. I’m yet to meet a mature trainer who says that they’re earning more. But my point is that people feel empowered to criticise teachers and teaching. I don’t generally do similarly for non-teaching professions. I love my job and get a lot of satisfaction from working with young people. Just bladdy stop having a go at us about it.
These days the starting salary is about the national average salary. I can assure you that is really good compared to a lot of professions. Lab chemist, for example. Postdoc. Lecturer. Social worker. Nurse. Trainee solicitors. It is even a bit higher than junior doctors. Want me to go on?
Most professions involve training, as in taking professional exams over several years. You didn't need a postgrad degree to get into teaching, but you do need a teaching qualification. That takes a year and there are lots of incentives to try. Over in the blink of an eye compared with some professions. Worth a punt - which is possibly why so many people do, then leave.
Most professions require some form of CPD. That's life.
So no one is having a go about your job, how well you do it or how valuable it is. But nor do I think you have a particularly raw deal, so when teachers complain, and this is something the profession is really good at, don't be surprised when people say that's normal, be quiet. And that's my point.
Regarding the "sacking" thing - best I can find is a Times article which I think is based on a FOI request. Suggests around 4 sackings a week across the entire country. There are over 500000 teachers in the UK. This means that if you took 100 random teachers, one would be fired for incompetence or misconduct every 25 years. Pretty secure job, I'd say.
Oh, and while teachers can get sacked, it’s much more likely that underperforming staff are managed out via the capability procedures in place everywhere. Much easier from the employer’s point of view and something that happens an awful lot.0 -
Hard compared to what?TheBigBean said:
It does sound like quite a hard year which probably doesn't encourage applicants from other industries.First.Aspect said:
Most professions involve training, as in taking professional exams over several years. You didn't need a postgrad degree to get into teaching, but you do need a teaching qualification. That takes a year and there are lots of incentives to try. Over in the blink of an eye compared with some professions. Worth a punt - which is possibly why so many people do, then leave.0 -
No - less than £60k, more than £50k. Not being coy at all. You know I’ve got 30+ years in the job, you know I lead a large department, I gave a link to the pay scales, and I’ve said on numerous posts that I know I’m doing OK and that I realise my pension is going to be decent (although not the maximum as I haven’t paid into it throughout - getting divorced was surprisingly expensive). Nobody had asked me what I earn.First.Aspect said:
Your pension is about 4 times the legal minimum requirement for employer contribution 3% I think). Most employers in the private sector pay the legal minimum requirement.johngti said:@surrey_commuter
“ I am sure Ric was quoting a figure of £60-70k for senior accountancy positions, so allowing for pension benefits that would be worth approx £50k for a teacher.”
My employer pays 13% of my salary into my pension, I pay an additional 10.2% from my salary. Employer contribution for me is significantly less than £10000.
So your package is about 10% higher in comparison than your headline salary suggests it is, not taking into account that the actual income when you are retired will be disproportionately high even in comparison to contributions.
So guestimating that you earn in the £60k range (you are coy on how much below 76k you earn), you know you are doing alright don't you? And that by and large people in the land of milk and honey are probably doing not much better than you even based on your headline salary?
Does it every get discussed within your profession that you might actually be being treated okay?
All I want is that some respect is shown. Teaching is undervalued in our society and that has to change.
What do you do/earn? Since we’re being open and honest and all.0 -
assume you earn £60k (to keep the sums easy) then you have accrued £1k of annual pension income. There are essentially three different ways of valuing that;johngti said:
Not quite. 1/60 on the average salary scheme and 1/80 for the final salary scheme that some still benefit from. So, yes, the pension is good. No complaints here for that.TheBigBean said:
And 1/57 pension for every year worked which is a level of income unavailable in the private sector given the cap and interest rates.surrey_commuter said:
cheers - so as we are all in a metro, liberal elite bubble if we look at outer London a teacher would be on £30-40k and a HoD £45-65k?johngti said:M1-M6 is standard, usually start on M1 and so long as you meet appraisal targets you move up a point every year.
U1-U3 require lots of additional evidence to get to. Plus you need to have been on M6 for two years before you can apply for U1 and then it’s collecting evidence over subsequent two-year appraisal cycles to move up the upper spine.
Worst case is that it can take 12 years to get to U3 and then you have to maintain that performance to remain on it (in a growing number of schools you can be moved back down the pay spine if your performance drops).
In areas where recruitment is difficult, staff can be started at higher points on the main scale. Other relevant experience can be taken into account too, usually on a 3:1 basis. So if you were a trainer in whatever industry you came from for 6 years you’d gain two years on the pay scale.
If you want to teach a shortage subject like maths or physics, there are generous bursaries available these days. Nothing for other subjects like English from September this year though.
TLR payments are used for management/leadership roles.
cash it out at x30 = £30k
annuity equivalent = £25k
Drawdown SIPP = £25K
There are all sorts of variables and intangibles on both sides but your public sector pension is worth £25-30k per year on your remuneration.
So allowing a few grand for the extra hols a teachers £60k is worth approx £90k in the private sector.0 -
I’m not really knowledgeable about how pensions work but I’m pretty sure that the money isn’t being paid into any kind of a fund as such that I can draw down. But either way, the pension can undoubtedly be excellent. If I’d been able to pay in throughout my career I’d have been able to go at 60 on the 80th final salary scheme on a very tidy pension amount.surrey_commuter said:
assume you earn £60k (to keep the sums easy) then you have accrued £1k of annual pension income. There are essentially three different ways of valuing that;johngti said:
Not quite. 1/60 on the average salary scheme and 1/80 for the final salary scheme that some still benefit from. So, yes, the pension is good. No complaints here for that.TheBigBean said:
And 1/57 pension for every year worked which is a level of income unavailable in the private sector given the cap and interest rates.surrey_commuter said:
cheers - so as we are all in a metro, liberal elite bubble if we look at outer London a teacher would be on £30-40k and a HoD £45-65k?johngti said:M1-M6 is standard, usually start on M1 and so long as you meet appraisal targets you move up a point every year.
U1-U3 require lots of additional evidence to get to. Plus you need to have been on M6 for two years before you can apply for U1 and then it’s collecting evidence over subsequent two-year appraisal cycles to move up the upper spine.
Worst case is that it can take 12 years to get to U3 and then you have to maintain that performance to remain on it (in a growing number of schools you can be moved back down the pay spine if your performance drops).
In areas where recruitment is difficult, staff can be started at higher points on the main scale. Other relevant experience can be taken into account too, usually on a 3:1 basis. So if you were a trainer in whatever industry you came from for 6 years you’d gain two years on the pay scale.
If you want to teach a shortage subject like maths or physics, there are generous bursaries available these days. Nothing for other subjects like English from September this year though.
TLR payments are used for management/leadership roles.
cash it out at x30 = £30k
annuity equivalent = £25k
Drawdown SIPP = £25K
There are all sorts of variables and intangibles on both sides but your public sector pension is worth £25-30k per year on your remuneration.
So allowing a few grand for the extra hols a teachers £60k is worth approx £90k in the private sector.
But, again, my point is that teaching, and therefore teachers, are not respected in the UK, along with public servants in other professions, and that needs to change. We need people to see it as an option and one reason why maths/science graduates get an attractive bursary to go into it is that there are more highly-paying offers on the table on graduation. And if someone decides to go and work in the public sector, good on them. Cut out the carping. I suspect many teachers get defensive because there is a tendency to go on the attack to a degree - government led in many cases.0 -
And I chipped in with a comment about the catch up fund. How’s this turned into a discussion about my earnings? One of those “wish I’d stayed out of it” moments...0
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Making it clear that you aren't actually paid badly might help. 1/60 average salary is a considerable amount.0
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I'm in the "Gordon Brown" 60% tax band, but it was a long journey.johngti said:
No - less than £60k, more than £50k. Not being coy at all. You know I’ve got 30+ years in the job, you know I lead a large department, I gave a link to the pay scales, and I’ve said on numerous posts that I know I’m doing OK and that I realise my pension is going to be decent (although not the maximum as I haven’t paid into it throughout - getting divorced was surprisingly expensive). Nobody had asked me what I earn.First.Aspect said:
Your pension is about 4 times the legal minimum requirement for employer contribution 3% I think). Most employers in the private sector pay the legal minimum requirement.johngti said:@surrey_commuter
“ I am sure Ric was quoting a figure of £60-70k for senior accountancy positions, so allowing for pension benefits that would be worth approx £50k for a teacher.”
My employer pays 13% of my salary into my pension, I pay an additional 10.2% from my salary. Employer contribution for me is significantly less than £10000.
So your package is about 10% higher in comparison than your headline salary suggests it is, not taking into account that the actual income when you are retired will be disproportionately high even in comparison to contributions.
So guestimating that you earn in the £60k range (you are coy on how much below 76k you earn), you know you are doing alright don't you? And that by and large people in the land of milk and honey are probably doing not much better than you even based on your headline salary?
Does it every get discussed within your profession that you might actually be being treated okay?
All I want is that some respect is shown. Teaching is undervalued in our society and that has to change.
What do you do/earn? Since we’re being open and honest and all.
I was 29 when I left uni, with a stipend of about the equivalent of what would now be about £8000 a year while I was a PhD / part time teaching assistant. Even when I did get into this job it took a further 5 - 6 years and 14 exams to get the two qualifications I needed to do it, studying at evenings and weekends for large parts of the year.
Trainee salaries are at best about £30k, often around £25k - this for people with top degrees and usually also PhDs. And they don't change by more than £5-£10k until you are fully qualified.
I would guess I was earning less than you up to probably about my early 40s. I'm a later starter, but at most you can shave 10 years off my career, but usually more like 6-7.
I do accept that the glass ceiling is a hell of a lot further over my head than yours. Hypothetically I could earn 5 times as much in this profession, and "easily" twice as much, depending on one's tolerance of suffering. But even within teaching, if you sell your soul and go to the private sector I imagine that there are some eye opening salaries.
FWIW I don't think teaching is undervalued in society, but I don't necessarily think it is under paid either. Nor is the route to qualification necessarily "harder", in comparison to other professions. It isn't binary though - in that if it isn't "harder" this doesn't mean it is easy.
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johngti said:
But, again, my point is that teaching, and therefore teachers, are not respected in the UK, along with public servants in other professions, and that needs to change.
Keep dreaming. It's the same with farmers - everyone is happy to have a pop at them, but if you had £2m, would you invest it in a farm and become a farmer? Why is it that so few young people want to become farmers, even if they get to inherit the farm, if it's so cushy?0 -
I haven’t claimed I’m paid badly though! I did say that I could have earned more in the private sector, which is more than likely true.kingstongraham said:Making it clear that you aren't actually paid badly might help. 1/60 average salary is a considerable amount.
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Those who have just taken a computer home and carried on much the same bar a few more Zoom meetings.First.Aspect said:
Hard compared to what?TheBigBean said:
It does sound like quite a hard year which probably doesn't encourage applicants from other industries.First.Aspect said:
Most professions involve training, as in taking professional exams over several years. You didn't need a postgrad degree to get into teaching, but you do need a teaching qualification. That takes a year and there are lots of incentives to try. Over in the blink of an eye compared with some professions. Worth a punt - which is possibly why so many people do, then leave.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Which professions are universally admired and respected?0
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No, a PGCE is hard compared to what?rjsterry said:
Those who have just taken a computer home and carried on much the same bar a few more Zoom meetings.First.Aspect said:
Hard compared to what?TheBigBean said:
It does sound like quite a hard year which probably doesn't encourage applicants from other industries.First.Aspect said:
Most professions involve training, as in taking professional exams over several years. You didn't need a postgrad degree to get into teaching, but you do need a teaching qualification. That takes a year and there are lots of incentives to try. Over in the blink of an eye compared with some professions. Worth a punt - which is possibly why so many people do, then leave.0 -
No, but there is that perception. Where it comes from, I'm not sure.johngti said:
I haven’t claimed I’m paid badly though! I did say that I could have earned more in the private sector, which is more than likely true.kingstongraham said:Making it clear that you aren't actually paid badly might help. 1/60 average salary is a considerable amount.
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Don’t put words into my mouth, please. Farming is blooming hard work. Lots of my family work in that sector and I know it’s far from a cushy number.briantrumpet said:johngti said:But, again, my point is that teaching, and therefore teachers, are not respected in the UK, along with public servants in other professions, and that needs to change.
Keep dreaming. It's the same with farmers - everyone is happy to have a pop at them, but if you had £2m, would you invest it in a farm and become a farmer? Why is it that so few young people want to become farmers, even if they get to inherit the farm, if it's so cushy?0 -
recruitment consultants?TheBigBean said:Which professions are universally admired and respected?
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and yet there are more buyers of farmland than there are sellers hence the prices continuing to risebriantrumpet said:johngti said:But, again, my point is that teaching, and therefore teachers, are not respected in the UK, along with public servants in other professions, and that needs to change.
Keep dreaming. It's the same with farmers - everyone is happy to have a pop at them, but if you had £2m, would you invest it in a farm and become a farmer? Why is it that so few young people want to become farmers, even if they get to inherit the farm, if it's so cushy?0 -
Tax deductible for IHT I think0
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I’ve only been at this level of pay for a very small proportion of my career. It’s taken lots of hard work to get to where I am, too. Comparing what we both earned in our early careers would be pointless as I started so long ago, my pay was awful for quite a long time. New teachers have a better deal. The pension is excellent but it’s wrong to claim that teachers get 13 weeks off every year, that we start at 9am and finish by 3pm every day and that we can’t be sacked, implying that we don’t care. That trope is what gets annoying. Teachers work as hard as anyone and harder than some but it’s easy to claim otherwise.First.Aspect said:
I'm in the "Gordon Brown" 60% tax band, but it was a long journey.johngti said:
No - less than £60k, more than £50k. Not being coy at all. You know I’ve got 30+ years in the job, you know I lead a large department, I gave a link to the pay scales, and I’ve said on numerous posts that I know I’m doing OK and that I realise my pension is going to be decent (although not the maximum as I haven’t paid into it throughout - getting divorced was surprisingly expensive). Nobody had asked me what I earn.First.Aspect said:
Your pension is about 4 times the legal minimum requirement for employer contribution 3% I think). Most employers in the private sector pay the legal minimum requirement.johngti said:@surrey_commuter
“ I am sure Ric was quoting a figure of £60-70k for senior accountancy positions, so allowing for pension benefits that would be worth approx £50k for a teacher.”
My employer pays 13% of my salary into my pension, I pay an additional 10.2% from my salary. Employer contribution for me is significantly less than £10000.
So your package is about 10% higher in comparison than your headline salary suggests it is, not taking into account that the actual income when you are retired will be disproportionately high even in comparison to contributions.
So guestimating that you earn in the £60k range (you are coy on how much below 76k you earn), you know you are doing alright don't you? And that by and large people in the land of milk and honey are probably doing not much better than you even based on your headline salary?
Does it every get discussed within your profession that you might actually be being treated okay?
All I want is that some respect is shown. Teaching is undervalued in our society and that has to change.
What do you do/earn? Since we’re being open and honest and all.
I was 29 when I left uni, with a stipend of about the equivalent of what would now be about £8000 a year while I was a PhD / part time teaching assistant. Even when I did get into this job it took a further 5 - 6 years and 14 exams to get the two qualifications I needed to do it, studying at evenings and weekends for large parts of the year.
Trainee salaries are at best about £30k, often around £25k - this for people with top degrees and usually also PhDs. And they don't change by more than £5-£10k until you are fully qualified.
I would guess I was earning less than you up to probably about my early 40s. I'm a later starter, but at most you can shave 10 years off my career, but usually more like 6-7.
I do accept that the glass ceiling is a hell of a lot further over my head than yours. Hypothetically I could earn 5 times as much in this profession, and "easily" twice as much, depending on one's tolerance of suffering. But even within teaching, if you sell your soul and go to the private sector I imagine that there are some eye opening salaries.
FWIW I don't think teaching is undervalued in society, but I don't necessarily think it is under paid either. Nor is the route to qualification necessarily "harder", in comparison to other professions. It isn't binary though - in that if it isn't "harder" this doesn't mean it is easy.
I’m bowing out of this. The government needs to put significant investment into improving the lot of our young people post-pandemic but not academically, it’s the social capital that’s gone.0 -
Maybe doctors and nurses come close?TheBigBean said:Which professions are universally admired and respected?
At least people generally understand what a teacher does. Say you're an engineer and people will think you fix washing machines.
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savage there, SCsurrey_commuter said:
recruitment consultants?TheBigBean said:Which professions are universally admired and respected?
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All my friends who are engineers are very particular about their use of the word technician.Jezyboy said:
Maybe doctors and nurses come close?TheBigBean said:Which professions are universally admired and respected?
At least people generally understand what a teacher does. Say you're an engineer and people will think you fix washing machines.0 -
I'll see your recruitment consultants and raise you estate agents.surrey_commuter said:
recruitment consultants?TheBigBean said:Which professions are universally admired and respected?
To be fair I was very pleased with the one who placed me in my current job.0
