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  • ddraverddraver Posts: 22,158



    It's illegal to own just one guinea pig in Switzerland. It's considered animal abuse because they're social beings and get lonely.

    B)

    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 12,668

    elbowloh said:

    john80 said:

    If I was the top 6 these are the events that would make me think twice.

    - Why would the remaining 14 teams in the premier league want the six to remain when they will now have another 300 million to spend on players further tilting the divide. Is it not better for them to get voted out and then the remaining 14 teams plus 6 new get the current Premier league money. I don't think the TV money will go down that much as there is still a demand to watch this stuff with the remaining 14 and for most of the teams it will be an increase in money.
    - The FA, UEFA FIFA could stop the super league teams players qualifying for national sides. Maybe players are not bothered but a fair few will be and some national sides particularly abroad could be decimated.
    - UEFA could well bar all the top teams from the Champions league.

    If all of the above happened these super league teams would have say 10-20 games a season and I think the 300 million revenue to the clubs could be questioned. I don't think they have fully thought this through.

    I think you've misunderstood the ESL - it's to replace the champions league, not the domestic league.
    It removes the top 4 "trophy" though.
    Its weird though, it removes a lot of the incentive for the Big 6 to compete in the league though.

    Say, one that big 6 runs away with the league, what incentive is there for the other 5 to keep going in the EPL and not just save their players for the ESL games?
    Yeah. You'll likely see two squads - domestic and international.
    A breach of premier league rules.
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 15,974

    john80 said:

    If I was the top 6 these are the events that would make me think twice.

    - Why would the remaining 14 teams in the premier league want the six to remain when they will now have another 300 million to spend on players further tilting the divide. Is it not better for them to get voted out and then the remaining 14 teams plus 6 new get the current Premier league money. I don't think the TV money will go down that much as there is still a demand to watch this stuff with the remaining 14 and for most of the teams it will be an increase in money.
    - The FA, UEFA FIFA could stop the super league teams players qualifying for national sides. Maybe players are not bothered but a fair few will be and some national sides particularly abroad could be decimated.
    - UEFA could well bar all the top teams from the Champions league.

    If all of the above happened these super league teams would have say 10-20 games a season and I think the 300 million revenue to the clubs could be questioned. I don't think they have fully thought this through.

    I think you've misunderstood the ESL - it's to replace the champions league, not the domestic league.
    If they go ahead with it, why would the PL want them in their league?

    If they do it, kick them out, let them have their exhibition league, and carry on as usual. If they're confident in their product, let the market decide.

    A European Super League has been the threat used by the big clubs (plus Spurs) to get more money for as long as I can remember. Life will go on without them.
  • elbowlohelbowloh Posts: 5,816
    edited 20 April

    elbowloh said:



    Look at the German clubs, run properly, to a budget and NOT signed up to this nonsense.

    The problem is with cowboy owners chasing rainbows. Oh look, those German clubs are 51% fan owned....

    I don't know if the Bundesliga is a model to aspire to... I remember a few years back Bayern Munich won the League in early April, with over 10 matches left to play.
    On the surface, it seems better run, but the rot might still be there... high costs, not much domestic interest and crucially fewer Asian fans to squeeze.

    You could say the same of the Dutch league, not as much money, but equally not very much interest... they might well disappear altogether in ten years out of lack of interest.

    The bottom line is that there is a lot of football on TV and most of it is very average stuff... the Superleague seems to be a way to lift the average into a more globally appealing product
    Dortmund - highest average attendances in Europe. Ticket costs about 20 euros, for that you also get a beer and parking or public transport to the ground. What's not to like?

    "at the end of the day" football as a business without the "sport" element will soon lose it's appeal, even in the Asian markets.

    I ask you this, why has the NFL, NBA that follow this kind of model not made a big impact in Asian markets?

    A lot of the asian fans do actually "get" the history element of football and it's part of the appeal to them. If you speak to some of them, they'll have a better knowledge of the history than a lot of domestic fans.
    Felt F1 2014
    Felt Z6 2012
    Red Arthur Caygill steel frame ??
    Tall....
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 54,984 Lives Here

    elbowloh said:

    john80 said:

    If I was the top 6 these are the events that would make me think twice.

    - Why would the remaining 14 teams in the premier league want the six to remain when they will now have another 300 million to spend on players further tilting the divide. Is it not better for them to get voted out and then the remaining 14 teams plus 6 new get the current Premier league money. I don't think the TV money will go down that much as there is still a demand to watch this stuff with the remaining 14 and for most of the teams it will be an increase in money.
    - The FA, UEFA FIFA could stop the super league teams players qualifying for national sides. Maybe players are not bothered but a fair few will be and some national sides particularly abroad could be decimated.
    - UEFA could well bar all the top teams from the Champions league.

    If all of the above happened these super league teams would have say 10-20 games a season and I think the 300 million revenue to the clubs could be questioned. I don't think they have fully thought this through.

    I think you've misunderstood the ESL - it's to replace the champions league, not the domestic league.
    It removes the top 4 "trophy" though.
    Its weird though, it removes a lot of the incentive for the Big 6 to compete in the league though.

    Say, one that big 6 runs away with the league, what incentive is there for the other 5 to keep going in the EPL and not just save their players for the ESL games?
    Yeah. You'll likely see two squads - domestic and international.
    A breach of premier league rules.
    Have always wondered about this - how is this enforced?
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,158

    john80 said:

    If I was the top 6 these are the events that would make me think twice.

    - Why would the remaining 14 teams in the premier league want the six to remain when they will now have another 300 million to spend on players further tilting the divide. Is it not better for them to get voted out and then the remaining 14 teams plus 6 new get the current Premier league money. I don't think the TV money will go down that much as there is still a demand to watch this stuff with the remaining 14 and for most of the teams it will be an increase in money.
    - The FA, UEFA FIFA could stop the super league teams players qualifying for national sides. Maybe players are not bothered but a fair few will be and some national sides particularly abroad could be decimated.
    - UEFA could well bar all the top teams from the Champions league.

    If all of the above happened these super league teams would have say 10-20 games a season and I think the 300 million revenue to the clubs could be questioned. I don't think they have fully thought this through.

    I think you've misunderstood the ESL - it's to replace the champions league, not the domestic league.
    If they go ahead with it, why would the PL want them in their league?

    If they do it, kick them out, let them have their exhibition league, and carry on as usual. If they're confident in their product, let the market decide.

    A European Super League has been the threat used by the big clubs (plus Spurs) to get more money for as long as I can remember. Life will go on without them.
    Why would they not want them?
    Surely without the big 6 there'd be a lot less money around for all? They lift a domestic league to some international audience
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 12,668

    john80 said:

    If I was the top 6 these are the events that would make me think twice.

    - Why would the remaining 14 teams in the premier league want the six to remain when they will now have another 300 million to spend on players further tilting the divide. Is it not better for them to get voted out and then the remaining 14 teams plus 6 new get the current Premier league money. I don't think the TV money will go down that much as there is still a demand to watch this stuff with the remaining 14 and for most of the teams it will be an increase in money.
    - The FA, UEFA FIFA could stop the super league teams players qualifying for national sides. Maybe players are not bothered but a fair few will be and some national sides particularly abroad could be decimated.
    - UEFA could well bar all the top teams from the Champions league.

    If all of the above happened these super league teams would have say 10-20 games a season and I think the 300 million revenue to the clubs could be questioned. I don't think they have fully thought this through.

    I think you've misunderstood the ESL - it's to replace the champions league, not the domestic league.
    If they go ahead with it, why would the PL want them in their league?

    If they do it, kick them out, let them have their exhibition league, and carry on as usual. If they're confident in their product, let the market decide.

    A European Super League has been the threat used by the big clubs (plus Spurs) to get more money for as long as I can remember. Life will go on without them.
    The question is whether the premier league can. If you read the Mail link above (a challenge I grant you) it talks about pre-emptive legal action being taken already.

    This is where it is helpful to have the government on side.
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 22,158

    john80 said:

    If I was the top 6 these are the events that would make me think twice.

    - Why would the remaining 14 teams in the premier league want the six to remain when they will now have another 300 million to spend on players further tilting the divide. Is it not better for them to get voted out and then the remaining 14 teams plus 6 new get the current Premier league money. I don't think the TV money will go down that much as there is still a demand to watch this stuff with the remaining 14 and for most of the teams it will be an increase in money.
    - The FA, UEFA FIFA could stop the super league teams players qualifying for national sides. Maybe players are not bothered but a fair few will be and some national sides particularly abroad could be decimated.
    - UEFA could well bar all the top teams from the Champions league.

    If all of the above happened these super league teams would have say 10-20 games a season and I think the 300 million revenue to the clubs could be questioned. I don't think they have fully thought this through.

    I think you've misunderstood the ESL - it's to replace the champions league, not the domestic league.
    If they go ahead with it, why would the PL want them in their league?

    If they do it, kick them out, let them have their exhibition league, and carry on as usual. If they're confident in their product, let the market decide.

    A European Super League has been the threat used by the big clubs (plus Spurs) to get more money for as long as I can remember. Life will go on without them.
    Spurs being considered one of the biggest clubs in Europe is one of the biggest blocks to this for me....
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • john80john80 Posts: 2,115

    john80 said:

    If I was the top 6 these are the events that would make me think twice.

    - Why would the remaining 14 teams in the premier league want the six to remain when they will now have another 300 million to spend on players further tilting the divide. Is it not better for them to get voted out and then the remaining 14 teams plus 6 new get the current Premier league money. I don't think the TV money will go down that much as there is still a demand to watch this stuff with the remaining 14 and for most of the teams it will be an increase in money.
    - The FA, UEFA FIFA could stop the super league teams players qualifying for national sides. Maybe players are not bothered but a fair few will be and some national sides particularly abroad could be decimated.
    - UEFA could well bar all the top teams from the Champions league.

    If all of the above happened these super league teams would have say 10-20 games a season and I think the 300 million revenue to the clubs could be questioned. I don't think they have fully thought this through.

    I think you've misunderstood the ESL - it's to replace the champions league, not the domestic league.
    It has a big effect on the domestic league though doesn't it. Why would a non top 6 team want to compete with a team that is guaranteed a revenue stream that can't be lost regardless of performance. I would not. I don't think they have FIFA or UEFA on side who own the Champions league do they not and this would essentially aim to reduce their event to a second tier event. Why would any international sports body be happy with that.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,158
    That's what we need, local elections won or lost depending on a party's stand on football...

    the last straw, really
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 6,850

    Superleague is a necessity, as Florentino Perez explains quite eloquently on the BBC website.
    Clubs need certainty of revenue from a number of high profile matches, otherwise they'll just go bust. When they go bust, the all game goes bust.

    The rest is just nonsense, from a bunch of romantics who think football should be the same game as it was in 1986 when they were teenagers

    When did Real Madrid or Barcelona last fail to qualify for the Champions League? They already have a high degree of guaranteed income. If they want to match expenditure to fluctuations based on how successful they are base wages on bonuses for winning stuff.

    These clubs are not going to go bust unless they are spectacularly badly run. Anyway if Barcelona or Man Utd do go bust the game does not go bust - someone else becomes the new "biggest club" and the world continues.

    It's not romantic nonsense it's trying to preserve some vestige of interest for all the clubs missing out. If the super league want to do their thing fine, I'd be glad tbh, it's the idea they can stay in the Premier League and have their own Super League that I object to.
    Qualifying for CL is not enough to break even.

    Last time Juventus run a small profit was when they made the CL final and lost to Real Madrid.
    Basically, big clubs probably break even if they reach the Semis... only 4 clubs can reach the semis, clearly it's not sustainable
    Most Premier League clubs are in profit in a normal year (nonCovid). I accept that the Premier League clubs have more income on average than the Italian but in all major leagues income levels have increased massively - if more income is the solution why hasn't the problem been solved?
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  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,158
    ddraver said:



    Spurs being considered one of the biggest clubs in Europe is one of the biggest blocks to this for me....

    They're based in London... direct flight from China... they come over and enjoy the hospitality, watch the match, buy some shxt, spend thousands... it's all part of the idea

  • OnegearOnegear Posts: 73
    john80 said:

    If I was the top 6 these are the events that would make me think twice.

    - Why would the remaining 14 teams in the premier league want the six to remain when they will now have another 300 million to spend on players further tilting the divide. Is it not better for them to get voted out and then the remaining 14 teams plus 6 new get the current Premier league money. I don't think the TV money will go down that much as there is still a demand to watch this stuff with the remaining 14 and for most of the teams it will be an increase in money.
    - The FA, UEFA FIFA could stop the super league teams players qualifying for national sides. Maybe players are not bothered but a fair few will be and some national sides particularly abroad could be decimated.
    - UEFA could well bar all the top teams from the Champions league.

    If all of the above happened these super league teams would have say 10-20 games a season and I think the 300 million revenue to the clubs could be questioned. I don't think they have fully thought this through.

    If the top 6 are kicked out sponsors will not pay the same amount and tv revenue will shift with them. Thinking thr pool stays the same witout the top 6 is foolishness. The other 14 teams dont have anywhere near the international appeal and the domestic market isnt exactly flush.

  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 15,974

    john80 said:

    If I was the top 6 these are the events that would make me think twice.

    - Why would the remaining 14 teams in the premier league want the six to remain when they will now have another 300 million to spend on players further tilting the divide. Is it not better for them to get voted out and then the remaining 14 teams plus 6 new get the current Premier league money. I don't think the TV money will go down that much as there is still a demand to watch this stuff with the remaining 14 and for most of the teams it will be an increase in money.
    - The FA, UEFA FIFA could stop the super league teams players qualifying for national sides. Maybe players are not bothered but a fair few will be and some national sides particularly abroad could be decimated.
    - UEFA could well bar all the top teams from the Champions league.

    If all of the above happened these super league teams would have say 10-20 games a season and I think the 300 million revenue to the clubs could be questioned. I don't think they have fully thought this through.

    I think you've misunderstood the ESL - it's to replace the champions league, not the domestic league.
    If they go ahead with it, why would the PL want them in their league?

    If they do it, kick them out, let them have their exhibition league, and carry on as usual. If they're confident in their product, let the market decide.

    A European Super League has been the threat used by the big clubs (plus Spurs) to get more money for as long as I can remember. Life will go on without them.
    Why would they not want them?
    Surely without the big 6 there'd be a lot less money around for all? They lift a domestic league to some international audience
    Because they've chosen to go their own way. Wish them ill and tell them to do one.

    There might be more money (until Spurs reserves manage to get themselves relegated), but unless the decision is to do away with all European competition, it makes the whole thing a farce if you can have the 7th -10th placed English teams qualifying for the Champions League.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,158

    Superleague is a necessity, as Florentino Perez explains quite eloquently on the BBC website.
    Clubs need certainty of revenue from a number of high profile matches, otherwise they'll just go bust. When they go bust, the all game goes bust.

    The rest is just nonsense, from a bunch of romantics who think football should be the same game as it was in 1986 when they were teenagers

    When did Real Madrid or Barcelona last fail to qualify for the Champions League? They already have a high degree of guaranteed income. If they want to match expenditure to fluctuations based on how successful they are base wages on bonuses for winning stuff.

    These clubs are not going to go bust unless they are spectacularly badly run. Anyway if Barcelona or Man Utd do go bust the game does not go bust - someone else becomes the new "biggest club" and the world continues.

    It's not romantic nonsense it's trying to preserve some vestige of interest for all the clubs missing out. If the super league want to do their thing fine, I'd be glad tbh, it's the idea they can stay in the Premier League and have their own Super League that I object to.
    Qualifying for CL is not enough to break even.

    Last time Juventus run a small profit was when they made the CL final and lost to Real Madrid.
    Basically, big clubs probably break even if they reach the Semis... only 4 clubs can reach the semis, clearly it's not sustainable
    Most Premier League clubs are in profit in a normal year (nonCovid). I accept that the Premier League clubs have more income on average than the Italian but in all major leagues income levels have increased massively - if more income is the solution why hasn't the problem been solved?
    In a closed door league of 15 or whatever, it will be much easier to control spending and making sure everybody is happy and making money. Currently, it's a mess... with money being thrown in from all sorts of places, dodgy money, laundered money, massive inflation... I can see the appeal of the project
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 15,299


    Because they've chosen to go their own way. Wish them ill and tell them to do one.

    Fexit? 😉
    Quite frankly, discussions like these are the best things about football. Post match in the pub, Monday morning in the office etc. The actual sport is secondary.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • Next logical step in the ESL is to relocate teams to the Far East etc. Leave the soccerball to the arm-chair fans and football to the people who actually attend games.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 12,668
    Onegear said:

    john80 said:

    If I was the top 6 these are the events that would make me think twice.

    - Why would the remaining 14 teams in the premier league want the six to remain when they will now have another 300 million to spend on players further tilting the divide. Is it not better for them to get voted out and then the remaining 14 teams plus 6 new get the current Premier league money. I don't think the TV money will go down that much as there is still a demand to watch this stuff with the remaining 14 and for most of the teams it will be an increase in money.
    - The FA, UEFA FIFA could stop the super league teams players qualifying for national sides. Maybe players are not bothered but a fair few will be and some national sides particularly abroad could be decimated.
    - UEFA could well bar all the top teams from the Champions league.

    If all of the above happened these super league teams would have say 10-20 games a season and I think the 300 million revenue to the clubs could be questioned. I don't think they have fully thought this through.

    If the top 6 are kicked out sponsors will not pay the same amount and tv revenue will shift with them. Thinking thr pool stays the same witout the top 6 is foolishness. The other 14 teams dont have anywhere near the international appeal and the domestic market isnt exactly flush.

    The really ballsy thing to do would be to auction off six places for some new teams. There would probably be some fans in Manchester and North London after a club.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,158
    If you want to see an example of how questionable money has influenced football, you have to look at the Ligue 1.
    Before 2012, PSG was a team with a very average palmares, then came money and they are now the only French team people know about. In the 1990s it was Marseille, with Tapie's money... then came Lyon... before either of them, the teams to beat were Nantes and Bordeaux... ever heard of them?
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 15,974

    Onegear said:

    john80 said:

    If I was the top 6 these are the events that would make me think twice.

    - Why would the remaining 14 teams in the premier league want the six to remain when they will now have another 300 million to spend on players further tilting the divide. Is it not better for them to get voted out and then the remaining 14 teams plus 6 new get the current Premier league money. I don't think the TV money will go down that much as there is still a demand to watch this stuff with the remaining 14 and for most of the teams it will be an increase in money.
    - The FA, UEFA FIFA could stop the super league teams players qualifying for national sides. Maybe players are not bothered but a fair few will be and some national sides particularly abroad could be decimated.
    - UEFA could well bar all the top teams from the Champions league.

    If all of the above happened these super league teams would have say 10-20 games a season and I think the 300 million revenue to the clubs could be questioned. I don't think they have fully thought this through.

    If the top 6 are kicked out sponsors will not pay the same amount and tv revenue will shift with them. Thinking thr pool stays the same witout the top 6 is foolishness. The other 14 teams dont have anywhere near the international appeal and the domestic market isnt exactly flush.

    The really ballsy thing to do would be to auction off six places for some new teams. There would probably be some fans in Manchester and North London after a club.
    And guarantee them a place in the PL for 5 years lol
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 15,974
    pblakeney said:


    Because they've chosen to go their own way. Wish them ill and tell them to do one.

    Fexit? 😉
    Quite frankly, discussions like these are the best things about football. Post match in the pub, Monday morning in the office etc. The actual sport is secondary.
    Well, I think some of those who voted for it did so in order to get a better deal out of UEFA rather than any great commitment to the idea.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,158

    Next logical step in the ESL is to relocate teams to the Far East etc. Leave the soccerball to the arm-chair fans and football to the people who actually attend games.

    It will probably happen...
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,158
    edited 20 April
    An interesting side story is that A. Agnelli was Ceferin's best pal, and he got the chair of the ECA, while secretly plotting against it... that's probably why the Slovenian got so furious and reacted like the local dealer, when a bigger gangsta comes into town.
    I find it all very entertaining
  • orraloonorraloon Posts: 8,286
    Money, money, money
    Always sunny
    In the rich man's world
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 15,299

    Next logical step in the ESL is to relocate teams to the Far East etc. Leave the soccerball to the arm-chair fans and football to the people who actually attend games.

    It will probably happen...
    A progression of the US model of team franchises that can move from city to city.
    Or, country to country in this case. History schmistory.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 54,984 Lives Here
    orraloon said:

    Money, money, money
    Always sunny
    In the rich man's world

    Well yes.

    That's the question I posed upthread about the social utility of professional sports and whether they best serve society run as another business or not.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,158
    In an ideal world, football would be like athletics or rowing... you never see it on TV, until there is a major event, being that the Olympics or the World cup. It still exists in the background, but you need to go and find it, by going to the game/races.

    Unfortunately, TV brought it to the masses and with that came money, which is never enough.

    The best outcome would be if football disappeared, only to come back every 4 years... so this might be a step in the right direction...
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 22,158
    edited 20 April
    If anyone wants to bring it back toward cycling, Jonathan Vaughters is (of course) totally in favour of it.

    Because cycling and football are totally the same obviously... 😐

    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,158
    ddraver said:

    If anyone wants to bring it back toward cycling, Johnathon Vaughters is (or course) totally in favour of it.

    Because cycling and football are totally the same obviously... 😐

    Well, isn't the PRO tour the same thing? A number of teams who get guaranteed entry to the big races... the others need to qualify
  • JezyboyJezyboy Posts: 696

    In an ideal world, football would be like athletics or rowing... you never see it on TV, until there is a major event, being that the Olympics or the World cup. It still exists in the background, but you need to go and find it, by going to the game/races.

    Unfortunately, TV brought it to the masses and with that came money, which is never enough.

    The best outcome would be if football disappeared, only to come back every 4 years... so this might be a step in the right direction...

    Why? Because you don't like it?
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