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  • Dorset_BoyDorset_Boy Posts: 3,834
    Ugo - can you name any football clubs that have actually gone bust and ceased to exist as a result?
    Plenty in this country have failed to pay their tax liabilities but still have been able to carry on.
    Sure, many (if not most) operate well beyond their means on a permanent basis, butr seem to be allowed to continue to do so.
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 6,824

    Superleague is a necessity, as Florentino Perez explains quite eloquently on the BBC website.
    Clubs need certainty of revenue from a number of high profile matches, otherwise they'll just go bust. When they go bust, the all game goes bust.

    The rest is just nonsense, from a bunch of romantics who think football should be the same game as it was in 1986 when they were teenagers

    When did Real Madrid or Barcelona last fail to qualify for the Champions League? They already have a high degree of guaranteed income. If they want to match expenditure to fluctuations based on how successful they are base wages on bonuses for winning stuff.

    These clubs are not going to go bust unless they are spectacularly badly run. Anyway if Barcelona or Man Utd do go bust the game does not go bust - someone else becomes the new "biggest club" and the world continues.

    It's not romantic nonsense it's trying to preserve some vestige of interest for all the clubs missing out. If the super league want to do their thing fine, I'd be glad tbh, it's the idea they can stay in the Premier League and have their own Super League that I object to.
    AFC Mercia women - sign for us
  • elbowlohelbowloh Posts: 5,757

    Ultimately, Perez is right... youngsters don't care for football anymore in Europe... my nephew, who is 13, doesn't give a monkey about football. But football is big in Asia among young people... and they love the Superleague idea... so, who cares about UK fans?

    Actually, from what i've seen, there are a lot of fans in the asian markets (i've heard form people in HK, Thailand and Malaysia) that are not in favour of the ESL.
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  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 15,277
    ddraver said:

    The flip side of that PB is that those are (were) about the only football I watched...when they were free to air.

    Not really interested in the mid table mediocrity.

    Plan C, my option, stop watching all together.
    My life is fuller as a result.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 15,922

    Superleague is a necessity, as Florentino Perez explains quite eloquently on the BBC website.
    Clubs need certainty of revenue from a number of high profile matches, otherwise they'll just go bust. When they go bust, the all game goes bust.

    The rest is just nonsense, from a bunch of romantics who think football should be the same game as it was in 1986 when they were teenagers

    They could consider spending less?
    You could say the same of Lehman brothers... all they had to do to avoid going bust was to stop paying their executives...

    Football is a business like another, they buy and sell assets at the market price... they can't suddenly stop paying players... there are contractual obligations. There are also expectations. The same fans moaning now, were probably moaning last year when the team didn't buy that famous striker...
    Ignoring the Lehman brothers thing, if the wages are not sustainable for the biggest clubs in the world, why are those the wages?
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,146

    Ugo - can you name any football clubs that have actually gone bust and ceased to exist as a result?
    Plenty in this country have failed to pay their tax liabilities but still have been able to carry on.
    Sure, many (if not most) operate well beyond their means on a permanent basis, butr seem to be allowed to continue to do so.

    In Italy, Fiorentina went bust a few years back. It was then re-founded with a new name and had to start back from the lower leagues as a new club.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,146

    Superleague is a necessity, as Florentino Perez explains quite eloquently on the BBC website.
    Clubs need certainty of revenue from a number of high profile matches, otherwise they'll just go bust. When they go bust, the all game goes bust.

    The rest is just nonsense, from a bunch of romantics who think football should be the same game as it was in 1986 when they were teenagers

    When did Real Madrid or Barcelona last fail to qualify for the Champions League? They already have a high degree of guaranteed income. If they want to match expenditure to fluctuations based on how successful they are base wages on bonuses for winning stuff.

    These clubs are not going to go bust unless they are spectacularly badly run. Anyway if Barcelona or Man Utd do go bust the game does not go bust - someone else becomes the new "biggest club" and the world continues.

    It's not romantic nonsense it's trying to preserve some vestige of interest for all the clubs missing out. If the super league want to do their thing fine, I'd be glad tbh, it's the idea they can stay in the Premier League and have their own Super League that I object to.
    Qualifying for CL is not enough to break even.

    Last time Juventus run a small profit was when they made the CL final and lost to Real Madrid.
    Basically, big clubs probably break even if they reach the Semis... only 4 clubs can reach the semis, clearly it's not sustainable
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 15,922
    edited 20 April

    Ugo - can you name any football clubs that have actually gone bust and ceased to exist as a result?
    Plenty in this country have failed to pay their tax liabilities but still have been able to carry on.
    Sure, many (if not most) operate well beyond their means on a permanent basis, butr seem to be allowed to continue to do so.

    In Italy, Fiorentina went bust a few years back. It was then re-founded with a new name and had to start back from the lower leagues as a new club.
    Aldershot FC (my team) went bust and started 6 divisions lower as a completely different club called Aldershot Town FC. Was a fun time being a small fish in a very small pond.

    When that new club went into administration, I gave up and don't follow them any more.

    And there's Rangers, of course.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,146
    elbowloh said:

    Superleague is a necessity, as Florentino Perez explains quite eloquently on the BBC website.
    Clubs need certainty of revenue from a number of high profile matches, otherwise they'll just go bust. When they go bust, the all game goes bust.

    The rest is just nonsense, from a bunch of romantics who think football should be the same game as it was in 1986 when they were teenagers

    Those big clubs that are close to going bust - it's because they've been betting on big transfers and big wages, spending way beyond their means in the hope of success.
    Nobody is saying otherwise... that's the business model... you can spend less and survive mid table, or you can spend and aim to win... neither model is currently profitable and that needs to change
  • elbowlohelbowloh Posts: 5,757

    elbowloh said:

    Superleague is a necessity, as Florentino Perez explains quite eloquently on the BBC website.
    Clubs need certainty of revenue from a number of high profile matches, otherwise they'll just go bust. When they go bust, the all game goes bust.

    The rest is just nonsense, from a bunch of romantics who think football should be the same game as it was in 1986 when they were teenagers

    Those big clubs that are close to going bust - it's because they've been betting on big transfers and big wages, spending way beyond their means in the hope of success.
    Nobody is saying otherwise... that's the business model... you can spend less and survive mid table, or you can spend and aim to win... neither model is currently profitable and that needs to change
    I don't agree. LFC have won the PL and CL without going bust (they were close under Hicks and Gillette).

    Leicester won the PL without spending mega-millions. It can happen and when it does, it's brilliant. This kind of thing will become even more rare with the ESL.
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  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 15,922
    elbowloh said:

    elbowloh said:

    Superleague is a necessity, as Florentino Perez explains quite eloquently on the BBC website.
    Clubs need certainty of revenue from a number of high profile matches, otherwise they'll just go bust. When they go bust, the all game goes bust.

    The rest is just nonsense, from a bunch of romantics who think football should be the same game as it was in 1986 when they were teenagers

    Those big clubs that are close to going bust - it's because they've been betting on big transfers and big wages, spending way beyond their means in the hope of success.
    Nobody is saying otherwise... that's the business model... you can spend less and survive mid table, or you can spend and aim to win... neither model is currently profitable and that needs to change
    I don't agree. LFC have won the PL and CL without going bust (they were close under Hicks and Gillette).

    Leicester won the PL without spending mega-millions. It can happen and when it does, it's brilliant. This kind of thing will become even more rare with the ESL.
    I disagree - if those 6 clubs treat the Premier League like the League Cup and play their kids because it's not important to them, then anyone could win it.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 54,907 Lives Here
    elbowloh said:

    elbowloh said:

    Superleague is a necessity, as Florentino Perez explains quite eloquently on the BBC website.
    Clubs need certainty of revenue from a number of high profile matches, otherwise they'll just go bust. When they go bust, the all game goes bust.

    The rest is just nonsense, from a bunch of romantics who think football should be the same game as it was in 1986 when they were teenagers

    Those big clubs that are close to going bust - it's because they've been betting on big transfers and big wages, spending way beyond their means in the hope of success.
    Nobody is saying otherwise... that's the business model... you can spend less and survive mid table, or you can spend and aim to win... neither model is currently profitable and that needs to change
    I don't agree. LFC have won the PL and CL without going bust (they were close under Hicks and Gillette).

    Leicester won the PL without spending mega-millions. It can happen and when it does, it's brilliant. This kind of thing will become even more rare with the ESL.
    Aren't they also owned by a sugardaddy? (albeit, one who died in a helicopter crash)?

  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,146

    elbowloh said:

    elbowloh said:

    Superleague is a necessity, as Florentino Perez explains quite eloquently on the BBC website.
    Clubs need certainty of revenue from a number of high profile matches, otherwise they'll just go bust. When they go bust, the all game goes bust.

    The rest is just nonsense, from a bunch of romantics who think football should be the same game as it was in 1986 when they were teenagers

    Those big clubs that are close to going bust - it's because they've been betting on big transfers and big wages, spending way beyond their means in the hope of success.
    Nobody is saying otherwise... that's the business model... you can spend less and survive mid table, or you can spend and aim to win... neither model is currently profitable and that needs to change
    I don't agree. LFC have won the PL and CL without going bust (they were close under Hicks and Gillette).

    Leicester won the PL without spending mega-millions. It can happen and when it does, it's brilliant. This kind of thing will become even more rare with the ESL.
    Aren't they also owned by a sugardaddy? (albeit, one who died in a helicopter crash)?

    A Thai billionaire, not exactly the best example of team run locally at a budget. They're no Green Bay Packers, to be clear
  • elbowlohelbowloh Posts: 5,757

    elbowloh said:

    elbowloh said:

    Superleague is a necessity, as Florentino Perez explains quite eloquently on the BBC website.
    Clubs need certainty of revenue from a number of high profile matches, otherwise they'll just go bust. When they go bust, the all game goes bust.

    The rest is just nonsense, from a bunch of romantics who think football should be the same game as it was in 1986 when they were teenagers

    Those big clubs that are close to going bust - it's because they've been betting on big transfers and big wages, spending way beyond their means in the hope of success.
    Nobody is saying otherwise... that's the business model... you can spend less and survive mid table, or you can spend and aim to win... neither model is currently profitable and that needs to change
    I don't agree. LFC have won the PL and CL without going bust (they were close under Hicks and Gillette).

    Leicester won the PL without spending mega-millions. It can happen and when it does, it's brilliant. This kind of thing will become even more rare with the ESL.
    Aren't they also owned by a sugardaddy? (albeit, one who died in a helicopter crash)?

    Kind of. They're owned by the people that own the King Power duty free chain of shops, but they do not have the level of funding that those in the big 6 receive.
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    Tall....
  • elbowlohelbowloh Posts: 5,757

    elbowloh said:

    elbowloh said:

    Superleague is a necessity, as Florentino Perez explains quite eloquently on the BBC website.
    Clubs need certainty of revenue from a number of high profile matches, otherwise they'll just go bust. When they go bust, the all game goes bust.

    The rest is just nonsense, from a bunch of romantics who think football should be the same game as it was in 1986 when they were teenagers

    Those big clubs that are close to going bust - it's because they've been betting on big transfers and big wages, spending way beyond their means in the hope of success.
    Nobody is saying otherwise... that's the business model... you can spend less and survive mid table, or you can spend and aim to win... neither model is currently profitable and that needs to change
    I don't agree. LFC have won the PL and CL without going bust (they were close under Hicks and Gillette).

    Leicester won the PL without spending mega-millions. It can happen and when it does, it's brilliant. This kind of thing will become even more rare with the ESL.
    Aren't they also owned by a sugardaddy? (albeit, one who died in a helicopter crash)?

    A Thai billionaire, not exactly the best example of team run locally at a budget. They're no Green Bay Packers, to be clear
    Who said anything about being local to be valid?

    Leicester do still run to a budget. their expenditure is mid-table, but they won the PL in 2016 and currently sitting in 3rd place in the league.








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    Tall....
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,146
    elbowloh said:

    elbowloh said:

    elbowloh said:

    Superleague is a necessity, as Florentino Perez explains quite eloquently on the BBC website.
    Clubs need certainty of revenue from a number of high profile matches, otherwise they'll just go bust. When they go bust, the all game goes bust.

    The rest is just nonsense, from a bunch of romantics who think football should be the same game as it was in 1986 when they were teenagers

    Those big clubs that are close to going bust - it's because they've been betting on big transfers and big wages, spending way beyond their means in the hope of success.
    Nobody is saying otherwise... that's the business model... you can spend less and survive mid table, or you can spend and aim to win... neither model is currently profitable and that needs to change
    I don't agree. LFC have won the PL and CL without going bust (they were close under Hicks and Gillette).

    Leicester won the PL without spending mega-millions. It can happen and when it does, it's brilliant. This kind of thing will become even more rare with the ESL.
    Aren't they also owned by a sugardaddy? (albeit, one who died in a helicopter crash)?

    A Thai billionaire, not exactly the best example of team run locally at a budget. They're no Green Bay Packers, to be clear
    Who said anything about being local to be valid?

    Leicester do still run to a budget. their expenditure is mid-table, but they won the PL in 2016 and currently sitting in 3rd place in the league.








    One example of virtue doesn't make European football sustainable.
    We are where we are with football and the bottom line is that the CL is not profitable enough... chiefly because nobody wants to see you play Malmoe or Slavia Prague
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 22,111
    elbowloh said:

    elbowloh said:

    Superleague is a necessity, as Florentino Perez explains quite eloquently on the BBC website.
    Clubs need certainty of revenue from a number of high profile matches, otherwise they'll just go bust. When they go bust, the all game goes bust.

    The rest is just nonsense, from a bunch of romantics who think football should be the same game as it was in 1986 when they were teenagers

    Those big clubs that are close to going bust - it's because they've been betting on big transfers and big wages, spending way beyond their means in the hope of success.
    Nobody is saying otherwise... that's the business model... you can spend less and survive mid table, or you can spend and aim to win... neither model is currently profitable and that needs to change
    I don't agree. LFC have won the PL and CL without going bust (they were close under Hicks and Gillette).

    Leicester won the PL without spending mega-millions. It can happen and when it does, it's brilliant. This kind of thing will become even more rare with the ESL.
    This is, of course, exactly what those teams want to stop.

    Same with upstart yokels Exeter Chiefs now beating "real" rugby teams.
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • OnegearOnegear Posts: 71
    edited 20 April
    Leicesters win was nothing short of a miracle which is why they havent repeated it. That said their competitiveness vs gross/net spend is very impressive against the top 6.

    Other examples: Rangers went near bust and had to reorganize in scottish 3rd division. Leeds nearly collapsed and it took them 14 years to get back to the Premier league. There arent many clubs from the prem that have imploded but going into administration or being sold for £1 is no cakewalk either. For the fans it might be better to cease existing. Wigan, Bolton wanderers come to mind.

  • john80john80 Posts: 2,108
    If I was the top 6 these are the events that would make me think twice.

    - Why would the remaining 14 teams in the premier league want the six to remain when they will now have another 300 million to spend on players further tilting the divide. Is it not better for them to get voted out and then the remaining 14 teams plus 6 new get the current Premier league money. I don't think the TV money will go down that much as there is still a demand to watch this stuff with the remaining 14 and for most of the teams it will be an increase in money.
    - The FA, UEFA FIFA could stop the super league teams players qualifying for national sides. Maybe players are not bothered but a fair few will be and some national sides particularly abroad could be decimated.
    - UEFA could well bar all the top teams from the Champions league.

    If all of the above happened these super league teams would have say 10-20 games a season and I think the 300 million revenue to the clubs could be questioned. I don't think they have fully thought this through.
  • elbowlohelbowloh Posts: 5,757

    elbowloh said:

    elbowloh said:

    elbowloh said:

    Superleague is a necessity, as Florentino Perez explains quite eloquently on the BBC website.
    Clubs need certainty of revenue from a number of high profile matches, otherwise they'll just go bust. When they go bust, the all game goes bust.

    The rest is just nonsense, from a bunch of romantics who think football should be the same game as it was in 1986 when they were teenagers

    Those big clubs that are close to going bust - it's because they've been betting on big transfers and big wages, spending way beyond their means in the hope of success.
    Nobody is saying otherwise... that's the business model... you can spend less and survive mid table, or you can spend and aim to win... neither model is currently profitable and that needs to change
    I don't agree. LFC have won the PL and CL without going bust (they were close under Hicks and Gillette).

    Leicester won the PL without spending mega-millions. It can happen and when it does, it's brilliant. This kind of thing will become even more rare with the ESL.
    Aren't they also owned by a sugardaddy? (albeit, one who died in a helicopter crash)?

    A Thai billionaire, not exactly the best example of team run locally at a budget. They're no Green Bay Packers, to be clear
    Who said anything about being local to be valid?

    Leicester do still run to a budget. their expenditure is mid-table, but they won the PL in 2016 and currently sitting in 3rd place in the league.








    One example of virtue doesn't make European football sustainable.
    We are where we are with football and the bottom line is that the CL is not profitable enough... chiefly because nobody wants to see you play Malmoe or Slavia Prague
    Yes, yes they do.

    The CL is very profitable for those teams that are in it. Clubs should clearly not budget to be in it every year, but rather as a bonus.

    The TV money just from playing in the PL is huge. Those clubs with big new stadia, get lots of additional money from gate receipts/match day revenue (pre-COVID).

    Look at the German clubs, run properly, to a budget and NOT signed up to this nonsense.

    The problem is with cowboy owners chasing rainbows. Oh look, those German clubs are 51% fan owned....
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  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 12,618
    elbowloh said:



    Look at the German clubs, run properly, to a budget and NOT signed up to this nonsense.

    Some state funding goes on though.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 54,907 Lives Here
    john80 said:

    If I was the top 6 these are the events that would make me think twice.

    - Why would the remaining 14 teams in the premier league want the six to remain when they will now have another 300 million to spend on players further tilting the divide. Is it not better for them to get voted out and then the remaining 14 teams plus 6 new get the current Premier league money. I don't think the TV money will go down that much as there is still a demand to watch this stuff with the remaining 14 and for most of the teams it will be an increase in money.
    - The FA, UEFA FIFA could stop the super league teams players qualifying for national sides. Maybe players are not bothered but a fair few will be and some national sides particularly abroad could be decimated.
    - UEFA could well bar all the top teams from the Champions league.

    If all of the above happened these super league teams would have say 10-20 games a season and I think the 300 million revenue to the clubs could be questioned. I don't think they have fully thought this through.

    I think you've misunderstood the ESL - it's to replace the champions league, not the domestic league.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 12,618

    john80 said:

    If I was the top 6 these are the events that would make me think twice.

    - Why would the remaining 14 teams in the premier league want the six to remain when they will now have another 300 million to spend on players further tilting the divide. Is it not better for them to get voted out and then the remaining 14 teams plus 6 new get the current Premier league money. I don't think the TV money will go down that much as there is still a demand to watch this stuff with the remaining 14 and for most of the teams it will be an increase in money.
    - The FA, UEFA FIFA could stop the super league teams players qualifying for national sides. Maybe players are not bothered but a fair few will be and some national sides particularly abroad could be decimated.
    - UEFA could well bar all the top teams from the Champions league.

    If all of the above happened these super league teams would have say 10-20 games a season and I think the 300 million revenue to the clubs could be questioned. I don't think they have fully thought this through.

    I think you've misunderstood the ESL - it's to replace the champions league, not the domestic league.
    It removes the top 4 "trophy" though.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 54,907 Lives Here
    I guess so. Is that a great loss?
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 12,618

    I guess so. Is that a great loss?

    Yes.
  • elbowlohelbowloh Posts: 5,757

    john80 said:

    If I was the top 6 these are the events that would make me think twice.

    - Why would the remaining 14 teams in the premier league want the six to remain when they will now have another 300 million to spend on players further tilting the divide. Is it not better for them to get voted out and then the remaining 14 teams plus 6 new get the current Premier league money. I don't think the TV money will go down that much as there is still a demand to watch this stuff with the remaining 14 and for most of the teams it will be an increase in money.
    - The FA, UEFA FIFA could stop the super league teams players qualifying for national sides. Maybe players are not bothered but a fair few will be and some national sides particularly abroad could be decimated.
    - UEFA could well bar all the top teams from the Champions league.

    If all of the above happened these super league teams would have say 10-20 games a season and I think the 300 million revenue to the clubs could be questioned. I don't think they have fully thought this through.

    I think you've misunderstood the ESL - it's to replace the champions league, not the domestic league.
    It removes the top 4 "trophy" though.
    Its weird though, it removes a lot of the incentive for the Big 6 to compete in the league though.

    Say, one that big 6 runs away with the league, what incentive is there for the other 5 to keep going in the EPL and not just save their players for the ESL games?
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  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 54,907 Lives Here
    elbowloh said:

    john80 said:

    If I was the top 6 these are the events that would make me think twice.

    - Why would the remaining 14 teams in the premier league want the six to remain when they will now have another 300 million to spend on players further tilting the divide. Is it not better for them to get voted out and then the remaining 14 teams plus 6 new get the current Premier league money. I don't think the TV money will go down that much as there is still a demand to watch this stuff with the remaining 14 and for most of the teams it will be an increase in money.
    - The FA, UEFA FIFA could stop the super league teams players qualifying for national sides. Maybe players are not bothered but a fair few will be and some national sides particularly abroad could be decimated.
    - UEFA could well bar all the top teams from the Champions league.

    If all of the above happened these super league teams would have say 10-20 games a season and I think the 300 million revenue to the clubs could be questioned. I don't think they have fully thought this through.

    I think you've misunderstood the ESL - it's to replace the champions league, not the domestic league.
    It removes the top 4 "trophy" though.
    Its weird though, it removes a lot of the incentive for the Big 6 to compete in the league though.

    Say, one that big 6 runs away with the league, what incentive is there for the other 5 to keep going in the EPL and not just save their players for the ESL games?
    Yeah. You'll likely see two squads - domestic and international.
  • focuszing723focuszing723 Posts: 2,009
    Ten random facts:

    Avocados are a fruit, not a vegetable. They're technically considered a single-seeded berry, believe it or not.

    The Eiffel Tower can be 15 cm taller during the summer, due to thermal expansion meaning the iron heats up, the particles gain kinetic energy and take up more space.

    Trypophobia is the fear of closely-packed holes. Or more specifically, "an aversion to the sight of irregular patterns or clusters of small holes or bumps." No crumpets for them, then.

    Australia is wider than the moon. The moon sits at 3400km in diameter, while Australia’s diameter from east to west is almost 4000km.

    'Mellifluous' is a sound that is pleasingly smooth and musical to hear.

    The Spice Girls were originally a band called Touch. "When we first started [with the name Touch], we were pretty bland," Mel C told The Guardian in 2018. "We felt like we had to fit into a mould."

    Human teeth are the only part of the body which cannot heal themselves. Teeth are coated in enamel which is not a living tissue.

    It's illegal to own just one guinea pig in Switzerland. It's considered animal abuse because they're social beings and get lonely.

    The Ancient Romans used to drop a piece of toast into their wine for good health - hence why we 'raise a toast'.

    The heart of a shrimp is located in its head. They also have an open circulatory system, which means they have no arteries and their organs float directly in blood.
  • elbowlohelbowloh Posts: 5,757
    Wrong thread?
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  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,146
    elbowloh said:



    Look at the German clubs, run properly, to a budget and NOT signed up to this nonsense.

    The problem is with cowboy owners chasing rainbows. Oh look, those German clubs are 51% fan owned....

    I don't know if the Bundesliga is a model to aspire to... I remember a few years back Bayern Munich won the League in early April, with over 10 matches left to play.
    On the surface, it seems better run, but the rot might still be there... high costs, not much domestic interest and crucially fewer Asian fans to squeeze.

    You could say the same of the Dutch league, not as much money, but equally not very much interest... they might well disappear altogether in ten years out of lack of interest.

    The bottom line is that there is a lot of football on TV and most of it is very average stuff... the Superleague seems to be a way to lift the average into a more globally appealing product
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