The end of rim brake is upon us

redvision

There's an interesting perspective on why the industry have pushed disc brakes in this video
https://youtu.be/ow9MCaAgQTw

Personally I hate the things and decided against buying the new sl7 tarmac after a test ride last year partly down to the discs.

I'm still hoping there will be an industry flip flop at some point in the future, as there has been with bottom brackets. Hopefully the negative comments of Froomey and other pros who share his views will help

neeb

Interesting PoV. But are integrated cables really so important that they are worth the industry switching to discs for..? Not entirely convinced.

First.Aspect

Sorry if I'm being stupid, but how is cable integration remotely related to disc brakes?

neeb

First.Aspect said:

Sorry if I'm being stupid, but how is cable integration remotely related to disc brakes?

It's maybe true that if you want fully integrated cables it's much easier to get this working properly with hydraulics.

Although that's an argument for hydraulics (if integration is that important), not discs per se.

First.Aspect

neeb said:

First.Aspect said:

Sorry if I'm being stupid, but how is cable integration remotely related to disc brakes?

It's maybe true that if you want fully integrated cables it's much easier to get this working properly with hydraulics.

Although that's an argument for hydraulics (if integration is that important), not discs per se.

Oh. That distinction is everything that is wrong about the industry.

MattFalle

I actually think that internal cabling is the worst thing ever.

Makes everything massively tricky for mininal gains.

womack

Just my tuppence worth.

My bikes, rim brakes, manual gears, old fashioned bars and stem.

Who came up with "cockpit" for a bike for god's sake.

It's a bike not a Harrier Jump Jet.

Years ago I could have used another comparison for cockpit.

MattFalle

Cockpit
Pain cave
Steed
Stable
Clubs

what a crockofshit

david37

its because Cycling has become a lifestyle choice for those with epic amounts of spare cash and no history.

And fair enough, it gives the vendors something to sell and the marketing guff is swallowed hook line and sinker. but theyre here to stay. the tech and shiny things are a key part of cycling, they always have been. I guess what grate the most is the obsolesence it produces.

Some things are great like cartridge bottom brackets. that was a definite step forward but i dare say the old timers would have regretted the lack of skill riders needed to maintain their bikes.

Personally I think there's a level of purity in rim brakes thats lost with hydraulics. Sure a novice can get away without any finesse but its the hard earned finesse that makes a difference. style through physical achievement is hard earned. Style through the credit card and rapha shop is just c unt. y

pangolin

david37 said:

its because Cycling has become a lifestyle choice for those with epic amounts of spare cash and no history.

And fair enough, it gives the vendors something to sell and the marketing guff is swallowed hook line and sinker. but theyre here to stay. the tech and shiny things are a key part of cycling, they always have been. I guess what grate the most is the obsolesence it produces.

Some things are great like cartridge bottom brackets. that was a definite step forward but i dare say the old timers would have regretted the lack of skill riders needed to maintain their bikes.

Personally I think there's a level of purity in rim brakes thats lost with hydraulics. Sure a novice can get away without any finesse but its the hard earned finesse that makes a difference. style through physical achievement is hard earned. Style through the credit card and rapha shop is just c unt. y

What a load of gate keeping nonsense

orraloon

Who actually gives a F? Guess there must be some gammon petrolheads wailing about the loss of leaded petrol and drum brakes on cars.

My last 3 bikes are all disk. I like them. So there.

neeb

orraloon said:

Who actually gives a F? Guess there must be some gammon petrolheads wailing about the loss of leaded petrol and drum brakes on cars.

My last 3 bikes are all disk. I like them. So there.

Difference is that an awful lot of people give a F, as is blatantly obvious from the fact it's still a massively controversial and debated topic (undoubtedly THE most debated topic in cycling tech), many years after the introduction of discs to road bikes.

That's because, unlike leaded petrol, there are lots of very good reasons for giving a F (see above).

orraloon

😊 Hey, I'm chilled

First.Aspect

MattFalle said:

Cockpit
Pain cave
Steed
Stable
Clubs

what a crockofshit

"Gruppo"

elbowloh

womack said:

Just my tuppence worth.

My bikes, rim brakes, manual gears, old fashioned bars and stem.

Who came up with "cockpit" for a bike for god's sake.

It's a bike not a Harrier Jump Jet.

Years ago I could have used another comparison for cockpit.

Harrier jump jets are old tech dude!

mully79

Once those pesky rim brakes are gone bigger wheels will follow !

elbowloh

Buy a bike you like and ride it. Doesn't matter if its disc or rim, so long as you like it.

I personally prefer rim brakes for my main bike(s), so do hope they keep making them, but am hoping to buy a disc winter bike at some point.

rwoofer

david37 said:

rwoofer said:

Just heard back from a dealer that the rim braked CAAD13 is no longer coming to the UK despite still being listed on the Cannondale website.

I have 3 disc braked bikes(MTB, gravel and road) I much prefer rim-brakes for road bikes, but the options to purchase are shrinking rapidly. All the brands that still say they stock eg. Giant, Ribble etc have far too agressive geometry on the largest sizes, so I'm almost in the position of not being able to purchase a rim braked bike any more.

Can't believe it has come to this so quickly. I can only hope some momentum builds behind the views expressed by Froomey that manufacturers might rethink the choice they give us.

Ive got a black size 56 caad 13 rim brake frame. bought it built it up and its too big so It isnt used. Im 5'11 and have always ridden a 56 before so if youre taller than me and want it, Ill sell it to you for a decent price. I havent cut the steerer down much at all.

Thx. Unfortunately I'm 6'6" and a 60cm is only just big enough for me. 62cm is probably the best fit, but they didn't get imported to the UK.

grobe02

The problem with disc brakes is quite simply that they are too subject to contamination. My comment on the Squealing Disc Brakes thread outlines how one beautiful spring day I headed out on my then brand new 2017 Specialized Venge. But later on dark inky clouds rolled in, and suddenly I was caught in a hailstorm. The icy pellets were bouncing off the pavement, and soon oil on the pavement had thoroughly contaminated my brakes. First came the ominous squealing, then almost total loss of braking power--not good. To be honest, I am one of those bike buyers/riders who have more money than sense, and have (perhaps justly) earned the contempt of many Bikeradar commentators. I bought into that whole marketing hype of "aero is everything". So now my beautiful Venge sits unused in the basement, as I am now fed up after taking the thing into my local bike shop many times for brake cleaning. As I commented in my other post, I am not anti-technology. My next bike project, an ultra-light, will probably have e-tap. And my everyday bike has TANNUS airless tires--I'll never have a flat again. But makers of high-end road bikes that are disc only be warned. I am never buying a disc-braked bike again--or at least not until the technology is totally redesigned.

rwoofer

I have both rim and disc brake bikes. For MTB they are by far and away the best. Many of the reasons they are so good for MTB also applies to gravel bikes, but the road bike approach to discs starts to erode the benefits - pads clearance too tight, making them too susceptible to noise, cylinders not always retracting evenly... all the issues that Froomey highlights. I've also found that they get contaminated too easily as well. Rim brake can work on gravel as I have a long drop rim braked gravel bike (before gravel was invented) and that worked quite well with 35mm tyres, but does suffer in the wet and dirt.

By the time you get to road bikes the only real noticeable advantage is braking in the wet, which is when all the downsides start to grate too much. The weight issue only makes it worse, when you have to spend thousands more to get a disc braked bike down to rim brake weights. I don't mind whatever view others have, but the bit that I'm reacting to is the removal of choice. In the case of Cannondale they still make them, so the must see a market, but the rest of the industry is forcing us into discs.

First.Aspect

One thing occurs. At the moment we are still in the phase of new and shiny with road discs. People who don't have them are making fomo purchases. At some point most people will have tried them and realised what a pita they are in practice. With a bit of luck the manufacturers who keep the options open will see the bottom end of rim brake demand in their product lines and it will be enough to make them worthwhile more widely.

mully79

Im pretty sure oil on the road contaminating pads is just a shimano cover up story for brake fluid spraying from leaking pistons.

orraloon

I have a 2021 model gravel disked. Past several months been through all sorts of crud, mud, shite et al. Squeal - yes. Loss of effectiveness - no. Never been a problem at all. Perhaps is down to the quality of the brake components rather than the concept.

Btw this mudplugger is a Boardman. With Shimano GRX. So brand ain't the issue.

First.Aspect

orraloon said:

I have a 2021 model gravel disked. Past several months been through all sorts of crud, mud, shite et al. Squeal - yes. Loss of effectiveness - no. Never been a problem at all. Perhaps is down to the quality of the brake components rather than the concept.

Btw this mudplugger is a Boardman. With Shimano GRX. So brand ain't the issue.

Give it time. They are better for some uses. But manifestly worse for others.

Ride quality seems to be an issue. I have a cervelo R3 and a lynskey cross disc, and I used to have a steel salsa disc. All have lacked the ride of my last three old rim braked bikes. 22, 15 and 5 years old respectively. All of the disc bikes are too harsh at the front. I think there is something about the stiffness needed at the front fork legs that can't be fixed with carbon lay up. The bit where a fork needs to flex has a caliper strapped to it, basically.

neeb

Maybe we'll see a big push for hydraulic rim brakes in a few years time. It would be new (well, new-mainstream), it could be marketed as the best of both worlds (or at least the best compromise). It could be relatively light and with the integrated cables aesthetic. Existing hydraulic groupsets might work as they are without needing to be modified (they'd just need new calipers). Existing wheels would be compatible but new ones could be marketed as better optimised. I might buy into that.

pblakeney

When mischief making I do enjoy pointing out that my rims are simply bigger diameter discs. 😉

MidlandsGrimpeur2

It does seem there is a definite element of the bike industry needing something that appears 'new' to sell to consumers in respect to discs on road bikes.

When I got into cycling there was no real difference in design or tech between bike brands, a lot of cyclists aspired to own something with perceived 'heritage' like a colnago. I think newer brands like cervelo, BMC etc. that came along were quite astute in realising they could not compete on heritage so they focussed on tech and trying to advance bike design and performance. This seemed to lead a series of arms races amongst bike manufacturers, first they were trying to make the lightest frame, then the stiffest and now the focus is on aero and integration.

It looks as though the current trend towards integrated bikes as explained in the video posted above has pushed the use of discs to become an integral element of most new road bike design. This also has the added bonus of lots of high end, very expensive road bikes knocking about which pushes up the price points as you go further down the range for each manufacturer. I might be cynical but it also has the handy knock on effect of no more of those 'pesky' £1000-1500 rim brake bikes that people actually want to buy because now you can charge them an extra grand for the disc version!

DeVlaeminck

First.Aspect said:

orraloon said:

I have a 2021 model gravel disked. Past several months been through all sorts of crud, mud, shite et al. Squeal - yes. Loss of effectiveness - no. Never been a problem at all. Perhaps is down to the quality of the brake components rather than the concept.

Btw this mudplugger is a Boardman. With Shimano GRX. So brand ain't the issue.

Give it time. They are better for some uses. But manifestly worse for others.

Ride quality seems to be an issue. I have a cervelo R3 and a lynskey cross disc, and I used to have a steel salsa disc. All have lacked the ride of my last three old rim braked bikes. 22, 15 and 5 years old respectively. All of the disc bikes are too harsh at the front. I think there is something about the stiffness needed at the front fork legs that can't be fixed with carbon lay up. The bit where a fork needs to flex has a caliper strapped to it, basically.

Very true - I've got a disc gravel bike - steel fork - thought I'd be getting some of the springiness I remember from my old 531c road bike but this thing rides like a tank. Ok it's 1 example and a gravel bike isn't a lightweight road bike but it was disappointing.

flasher

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

It looks as though the current trend towards integrated bikes as explained in the video posted above has pushed the use of discs to become an integral element of most new road bike design. This also has the added bonus of lots of high end, very expensive road bikes knocking about which pushes up the price points as you go further down the range for each manufacturer. I might be cynical but it also has the handy knock on effect of no more of those 'pesky' £1000-1500 rim brake bikes that people actually want to buy because now you can charge them an extra grand for the disc version!

Not forgetting also making home spannering a lot more complicated, so a win win for the bike industry.

MattFalle

neeb said:

Maybe we'll see a big push for hydraulic rim brakes in a few years time. It would be new (well, new-mainstream), it could be marketed as the best of both worlds (or at least the best compromise). It could be relatively light and with the integrated cables aesthetic. Existing hydraulic groupsets might work as they are without needing to be modified (they'd just need new calipers). Existing wheels would be compatible but new ones could be marketed as better optimised. I might buy into that.

intergrated/internal cables areshit.

there is no argument against it.