Giro 2020 - Stage 20: Alba – Sestriere 190kms *Spoilers*

RichN95.

tailwindhome said:

I've a feeling there's an obvious (and recent) answer but I'm missing it.

Has anyone ever one a GT having not worn the leaders jersey until the final podium?

Jan Janssen in the 1968 Tour de France is the one I can think of.

Edit: Also Angel Casero and Aitor Gonzalez in the 2001 and 2002 Vueltas

TheBigBean

tailwindhome said:

I've a feeling there's an obvious (and recent) answer but I'm missing it.

Has anyone ever one a GT having not worn the leaders jersey until the final podium?

On the basis that it would require a final day TT and that there aren't many of those, I'm going to say no. Lemond, Dumoulin and Hesjedal had all worn it before.

blazing_saddles

DeadCalm said:

RichN95. said:

DeadCalm said:

Fantastic stage.

With regard to the should Hindley have dropped back arguments, assuming TGH beats Hindley in the TT (as I hope he does) I'd suggest, in hindsight, that suggests they didn't make the best decision. Probably though, whatever decision they made, it wouldn't have altered the final result. Certainly, anyone claiming that one or the other tactic was obviously superior to the other is wrong. Sunweb were between a rock and a hard place.

Let's see what Kelderman does in the TT. My guess is he has a bad one. Although admittedly there's not much at stake for him he's not going to move from third.

It's an unknowable. If Hindley had dropped back on Thursday, would Kelderman have lost as much time today? Possibly not. It was a super tough decision for Sunweb. At the time I thought they made the right call. Now I'm not so sure. If Hindley wins pink, it's indisputable. Any other result is debatable.

Also an unknowable is how much faster Dennis and TGH could have gone also doing this two team Trofeo Baracchi.
The bottom line is that Kelderman is 1'-32" down and TGH would have had 5 second extra bonifications.

So, in order for Wilco to still be in pink, he and Hindley would have had to gone roughly 1 and a half minutes faster than Kelderman solo. To be in touch for tomorrow's TT, maybe 1'-10".
That allows for any time saved today, which is debatable.

Not factored in, in any of this, is Kelderman's pretty extensive history of cracking under pressure.

Matti66

Where’s his mother from? Forgotten who did it but there was a stand up comedy sketch about Scottishness only going down the male line.

Edit if he loses tomorrow , which could happen will he be a Brit or Scottish ? Hope he can pull it off , but every one seems to think its a formality which unnerves me as the mocker gods don’t like presumptions.

jimmyjams

pblakeney said:

mididoctors said:

All that distance with no time gap ..should have just had the two of them do a tt and save everyone else the trouble

It's about the complete journey, not just the destination.

Thumbs up to the reply, although not particularly about the stage/mididoctors comment.

gweeds

Jeez. After successfully avoiding all of today’s results due to shooting an actual wedding today.

Fucking hell. What odds would you have got on this with 1 stage remaining.

neonriver

RichN95. said:

No_Ta_Doctor said:

Yes. His dad is Scottish, and Fotheringham always say's he's Scottish - ever heard Tao himself talk about it, so I'd guess Fotheringham knows best

It seems that Scotland selected him in the team for the 2014 Commonwealth Games, but he never raced. I'm not sure that's a sound basis for calling him a Scot. Who does he support at international football?

His own words

Scotland selected him for the last two Commonwealth Games, but he failed to find time in his race schedule to appear in either – “I would have loved Glasgow” – so he is now targeting Birmingham in 2022. After his recent success, will it still be in Scotland’s colours?

“Yeah, yeah, definitely,” he replies with unforced enthusiasm. “I tried to get some kit off [Scottish cyclist] Mark Stewart but he flicked me off! I will have to turn up to get some!

“My dad is Scottish, he was born there. His parents were a Celtic mix of Scottish and Irish. I grew up in Hackney.

“In the modern day world no one is one thing, I quite like that about the world. I am proud to be a mongrel, I think it’s a good thing.

“I love going there [Scotland], whether it’s to see my gran in Edinburgh or I’ve been there with the Tour of Britain a few times or just to be on holiday.

“I definitely feel strong roots to both my Irish and Scottish ancestry.”

From an interview with the Scotsman

larkim

Kelderman can still ride for 2nd can't he if the flat TT really doesn't suit Hindley?

phreak

Also interesting to note that Ben Swift is in 18th place at the moment. I know it's not the deepest GC field in the world, but that still seems pretty high. His previous best was 83rd in the Tour a few years ago.

mididoctors

blazing_saddles said:

DeadCalm said:

RichN95. said:

DeadCalm said:

Fantastic stage.

With regard to the should Hindley have dropped back arguments, assuming TGH beats Hindley in the TT (as I hope he does) I'd suggest, in hindsight, that suggests they didn't make the best decision. Probably though, whatever decision they made, it wouldn't have altered the final result. Certainly, anyone claiming that one or the other tactic was obviously superior to the other is wrong. Sunweb were between a rock and a hard place.

Let's see what Kelderman does in the TT. My guess is he has a bad one. Although admittedly there's not much at stake for him he's not going to move from third.

It's an unknowable. If Hindley had dropped back on Thursday, would Kelderman have lost as much time today? Possibly not. It was a super tough decision for Sunweb. At the time I thought they made the right call. Now I'm not so sure. If Hindley wins pink, it's indisputable. Any other result is debatable.

Also an unknowable is how much faster Dennis and TGH could have gone also doing this two team Trofeo Baracchi.
The bottom line is that Kelderman is 1'-32" down and TGH would have had 5 second extra bonifications.

So, in order for Wilco to still be in pink, he and Hindley would have had to gone roughly 1 and a half minutes faster than Kelderman solo. To be in touch for tomorrow's TT, maybe 1'-10".
That allows for any time saved today, which is debatable.

Not factored in, in any of this, is Kelderman's pretty extensive history of cracking under pressure.

+1
This is the crux of it dropping back would have allowed Tao and Rohan to not hold back anything incase hindley came over the top

ocdupalais

mididoctors said:

blazing_saddles said:

DeadCalm said:

RichN95. said:

DeadCalm said:

Fantastic stage.

With regard to the should Hindley have dropped back arguments, assuming TGH beats Hindley in the TT (as I hope he does) I'd suggest, in hindsight, that suggests they didn't make the best decision. Probably though, whatever decision they made, it wouldn't have altered the final result. Certainly, anyone claiming that one or the other tactic was obviously superior to the other is wrong. Sunweb were between a rock and a hard place.

Let's see what Kelderman does in the TT. My guess is he has a bad one. Although admittedly there's not much at stake for him he's not going to move from third.

It's an unknowable. If Hindley had dropped back on Thursday, would Kelderman have lost as much time today? Possibly not. It was a super tough decision for Sunweb. At the time I thought they made the right call. Now I'm not so sure. If Hindley wins pink, it's indisputable. Any other result is debatable.

Also an unknowable is how much faster Dennis and TGH could have gone also doing this two team Trofeo Baracchi.
The bottom line is that Kelderman is 1'-32" down and TGH would have had 5 second extra bonifications.

So, in order for Wilco to still be in pink, he and Hindley would have had to gone roughly 1 and a half minutes faster than Kelderman solo. To be in touch for tomorrow's TT, maybe 1'-10".
That allows for any time saved today, which is debatable.

Not factored in, in any of this, is Kelderman's pretty extensive history of cracking under pressure.

+1
This is the crux of it dropping back would have allowed Tao and Rohan to not hold back anything incase hindley came over the top

+ 1 million [insert pic of Dr Evil]
...and not only that, in defence of the Sunweb tactic, if your lead rider has cracked halfway up the 2nd to last climb , the Stelvio (St 18) - you have no real physiologically accurate assessment of where they’re at in terms of defending their (at this point, hypothetical) lead on the final climb - or maybe Sunweb had very clear idea of where Kelderman was, physiologically? - As it turns out, Kelderman may we’ll have benefitted from being towed by Hindley (had he dropped back) on the terrain between the base of Stelvio and the final climb: but that might have compromised Hindley on the final climb - so he wouldn’t have won the stage. And Kelderman is very unlikely to have been able to claw back time on the guys who’ve already dropped him. So SunWeb would have lost the stage win and may well have lost the maglia rosa.
In terms of making decisions on the road in the moment, criticising anything that’s happened after the Stelvio is unfair, I think. In many cases, you’re dealing with athletes and DS’s who are at the very furthest extent of their faculties.
Tomorrow, Hindley might have a shocker in the TT and everyone will be saying they should’ve backed Kelderman: but today showed everyone that Hindley is stronger. As the mantra goes... the road will decide.

DeVlaeminck

I think we are just going over the same ground. Yes it's a case of how much time would Kelderman have saved had Hindley assisted him on both stages Vs how much Tao might have been holding back for fear of Hindley jumping him - neither is knowable.

The thing that is being lost is that we are looking for the best outcome of two - and the one Sunweb chose may not (probably won't) deliver the win.

It's not a case of me arguing Kelderman was nailed on to win if Sunweb backed him just he had more chance than Hindley who has alwAys looked at a big disadvantage due to the TT.

bobmcstuff

tailwindhome said:

Geoghegan

That's an Irish name, no?

Yes, it's an Irish name. McGuigan MacGeoghegan etc. - same name.

ddraver

May as well throw my two groats in...

Kelderman, as yet, is unproven as a GC winner (you may say he's proven the opposite). Even if they re the nominal leader, if they get dropped on the second to last climb - whereas another team mate - who has a better than average chance of winning a jersey, even if it's not the big one - they don't get help.

Sorry Wilco, but before you have 7 other men all in for you, you have to show that you can get through this situation and win.

If it was the last few Kms of the final climb, then maybe you risk sending some help back, but the history just isn't with people in Wilco's situation. He deserves credit for a strong ride to limit what looked like being catastrophic losses but, sorry dude, you blew it.

blazing_saddles

DeVlaeminck said:

I think we are just going over the same ground. Yes it's a case of how much time would Kelderman have saved had Hindley assisted him on both stages Vs how much Tao might have been holding back for fear of Hindley jumping him - neither is knowable.

The thing that is being lost is that we are looking for the best outcome of two - and the one Sunweb chose may not (probably won't) deliver the win.

It's not a case of me arguing Kelderman was nailed on to win if Sunweb backed him just he had more chance than Hindley who has alwAys looked at a big disadvantage due to the TT.

As opposed to the one they didn't chose, that definitely wouldn't have delivered the win?
Your position hasn't really change, it's just become more conciliatory.
Look at the way Almeida left Wilco for dead today.
If Kelderman turns out a poor TT tomorrow, I doubt things will move beyond stage 18, then either.

bobmcstuff

I agree with ddraver...

RichN95.

bobmcstuff said:

tailwindhome said:

Geoghegan

That's an Irish name, no?

Yes, it's an Irish name. McGuigan MacGeoghegan etc. - same name.

I remember Simon Geoghegan playing rugby for Ireland. He was a terrific player. Also English born with an Irish grandad

DeVlaeminck

blazing_saddles said:

DeVlaeminck said:

I think we are just going over the same ground. Yes it's a case of how much time would Kelderman have saved had Hindley assisted him on both stages Vs how much Tao might have been holding back for fear of Hindley jumping him - neither is knowable.

The thing that is being lost is that we are looking for the best outcome of two - and the one Sunweb chose may not (probably won't) deliver the win.

It's not a case of me arguing Kelderman was nailed on to win if Sunweb backed him just he had more chance than Hindley who has alwAys looked at a big disadvantage due to the TT.

As opposed to the one they didn't chose, that definitely wouldn't have delivered the win?
Your position hasn't really change, it's just become more conciliatory.
Look at the way Almeida left Wilco for dead today.
If Kelderman turns out a poor TT tomorrow, I doubt things will move beyond stage 18, then either.

No my position hasn't changed - why would it - I just accept some things aren't knowable whereas you are pretending they are.

It's a discussion on tactics in a bike race - if you have a need to prove yourself right I don't mind giving you a biscuit.

pblakeney

Just to throw something else in the mix.
Young pretender v non-winner who signed a contract with a rival mid-season.
Who'd you support?

rafletcher

johnboy183 said:

Potentially TGH will be the first English GT winner.

That’ll be TGH “The London-born Scot” as the Guardian had it yesterday ;-)

Matti66

They know their audience , good business really.

johnboy183

rafletcher said:

johnboy183 said:

Potentially TGH will be the first English GT winner.

That’ll be TGH “The London-born Scot” as the Guardian had it yesterday ;-)

And a bloody southerner/Londoner should he lose 😉😉

tailwindhome

...

bobmcstuff

https://twitter.com/Eurosport_UK/status/1320038380416208896?s=19

Nice interview with Dennis about Stage 20.