TDF 2020 - Stage 17 Grenoble - Méribel Col de la Loze 170 km *Spoilers*

Dorset_Boy

I think you are wrong about Meribel and Courchevel, both of which are full of chalets and not hugely dis-similar from the likes of Verbier. The character of the resorts did change with the russian influence, and possibly not for the better! The 3V lift system is the absolute best in the world, and nowhere in Europe touches it in that regard.
That said, I wouldn't stay in the VT valley, and VT & Les Menuires do represent the worst of french ski resort design (though there is a german architect partly responsible!).

jimmyjams

bobmcstuff said:

jimmyjams said:

Further to the brief discussion in an earlier thread about the climber's jersey, what is the point of it, when at the moment the current situation is:

KOM standings
1 Pogacar 66 pts
2 Roglic 63 pts
3 Lopez 51 pts

GC placings
1 Roglic 74:56:04
2 Pogacar 0:00:57
3 Lopez 0:01:26

If KOM is meant to be a different competition, as much as the green jersey is, surely it needs radically overhauling so that one of the riders who successfully competes for many of the climbs does eventually win it?

I don't necessarily mind the yellow jersey also being the KOM because it means they have won on the biggest climbs of the Tour, so hopefully the GC race has been interesting...

The polka dots earlier in the race is usually just someone from the smaller teams who clips off over the first few categorised hills and picks up some easy points. If someone like that won it would be a bit silly.

Barguil won it in 2017 - that was a proper win by a proper climber, which I enjoyed and made the jersey a different competition to the yellow jersey. Doesn't that meet your suggestion?

The thing is when that happens people start grumbling that the rider should be going for GC...

I think they need to have big KOM points on breakaway friendly stages. When it is combined with time bonuses at the end of key GC stages it inevitably leads to GC riders winning the KOM jersey.

I know the actual KOM winner is often not on the podium, as your Barguil example, but with the current system, riders who finish high up in the GC, automatically finish high up in the KOM, although KOM is rarely their goal.
I think if the competition were somehow altered, people wouldn't say, as you suggest, the leader should be going for GC too.
I'd support your idea of giving more KOM points on stages judged to be breakaway-friendly, in a way it would be like the coefficients applied to stages wrt green jersey points.
It sort of roughly corresponds to my idea that the lower cat climbs should bring more points than presently.
I thought RC's suggestion that climbs earlier in the day could be weighted more also has merit.

rick_chasey

jimmyjams said:

I thought RC's suggestion that climbs earlier in the day could be weighted more also has merit.

I would be weary of my suggestions as my preoccupation is to make riders more tired before the arrive at the finale - and if you can't make it longer, I'll come up with gimmicks to make the first hour or two more difficult.

It would have an impact on the green jersey as you would likely get racing off the bat in big mountain stages more often.

gsk82

jimmyjams said:

bobmcstuff said:

jimmyjams said:

Further to the brief discussion in an earlier thread about the climber's jersey, what is the point of it, when at the moment the current situation is:

KOM standings
1 Pogacar 66 pts
2 Roglic 63 pts
3 Lopez 51 pts

GC placings
1 Roglic 74:56:04
2 Pogacar 0:00:57
3 Lopez 0:01:26

If KOM is meant to be a different competition, as much as the green jersey is, surely it needs radically overhauling so that one of the riders who successfully competes for many of the climbs does eventually win it?

I don't necessarily mind the yellow jersey also being the KOM because it means they have won on the biggest climbs of the Tour, so hopefully the GC race has been interesting...

The polka dots earlier in the race is usually just someone from the smaller teams who clips off over the first few categorised hills and picks up some easy points. If someone like that won it would be a bit silly.

Barguil won it in 2017 - that was a proper win by a proper climber, which I enjoyed and made the jersey a different competition to the yellow jersey. Doesn't that meet your suggestion?

The thing is when that happens people start grumbling that the rider should be going for GC...

I think they need to have big KOM points on breakaway friendly stages. When it is combined with time bonuses at the end of key GC stages it inevitably leads to GC riders winning the KOM jersey.

I know the actual KOM winner is often not on the podium, as your Barguil example, but with the current system, riders who finish high up in the GC, automatically finish high up in the KOM, although KOM is rarely their goal.
I think if the competition were somehow altered, people wouldn't say, as you suggest, the leader should be going for GC too.
I'd support your idea of giving more KOM points on stages judged to be breakaway-friendly, in a way it would be like the coefficients applied to stages wrt green jersey points.
It sort of roughly corresponds to my idea that the lower cat climbs should bring more points than presently.
I thought RC's suggestion that climbs earlier in the day could be weighted more also has merit.

The double points for yh free gun finish at col de loze has had too big an affect. This year's route didn't lend itself to the double points set up due to lack of big mountain finishes.

jimmyjams

rick_chasey said:

jimmyjams said:

I thought RC's suggestion that climbs earlier in the day could be weighted more also has merit.

I would be weary of my suggestions as my preoccupation is to make riders more tired before the arrive at the finale - and if you can't make it longer, I'll come up with gimmicks to make the first hour or two more difficult.

It would have an impact on the green jersey as you would likely get racing off the bat in big mountain stages more often.

I have no problem with what might result with your 'gimmicks'.

TheBigBean

Dorset_Boy said:

I think you are wrong about Meribel and Courchevel, both of which are full of chalets and not hugely dis-similar from the likes of Verbier. The character of the resorts did change with the russian influence, and possibly not for the better! The 3V lift system is the absolute best in the world, and nowhere in Europe touches it in that regard.
That said, I wouldn't stay in the VT valley, and VT & Les Menuires do represent the worst of french ski resort design (though there is a german architect partly responsible!).

I think the quality of skiing is often inversely proportional to the lift quality.

bobmcstuff

I had a good and memorable ski trip to VT when I was about 23... Didn't mind it at all really. Obviously there are nicer places to look at but that wasn't really what we were there for.

ddraver

TheBigBean said:

Dorset_Boy said:

I think you are wrong about Meribel and Courchevel, both of which are full of chalets and not hugely dis-similar from the likes of Verbier. The character of the resorts did change with the russian influence, and possibly not for the better! The 3V lift system is the absolute best in the world, and nowhere in Europe touches it in that regard.
That said, I wouldn't stay in the VT valley, and VT & Les Menuires do represent the worst of french ski resort design (though there is a german architect partly responsible!).

I think the quality of skiing is often inversely proportional to the lift quality.

Defend!

(In a nice way)

pblakeney

ddraver said:

TheBigBean said:

Dorset_Boy said:

I think you are wrong about Meribel and Courchevel, both of which are full of chalets and not hugely dis-similar from the likes of Verbier. The character of the resorts did change with the russian influence, and possibly not for the better! The 3V lift system is the absolute best in the world, and nowhere in Europe touches it in that regard.
That said, I wouldn't stay in the VT valley, and VT & Les Menuires do represent the worst of french ski resort design (though there is a german architect partly responsible!).

I think the quality of skiing is often inversely proportional to the lift quality.

Defend!

(In a nice way)

Better lifts = more people.
More people = Ruin nice places.

Dorset_Boy

TheBigBean said:

Dorset_Boy said:

I think you are wrong about Meribel and Courchevel, both of which are full of chalets and not hugely dis-similar from the likes of Verbier. The character of the resorts did change with the russian influence, and possibly not for the better! The 3V lift system is the absolute best in the world, and nowhere in Europe touches it in that regard.
That said, I wouldn't stay in the VT valley, and VT & Les Menuires do represent the worst of french ski resort design (though there is a german architect partly responsible!).

I think the quality of skiing is often inversely proportional to the lift quality.

I guess it depends in what you mean by 'quality of skiing'.
If you are a La Grave lover, anywhere pisted will be considered crap, but for 99% of skiers, La Grave would be an horrific experience.

Slow old lifts = longer queuing times = less time on the slopes = poor quality IMHO.

Bean, can you name some resorts with crap lift systems and great quality of skiing, that you won't have skied out in 48 hours there?

ddraver

Verbier,
St. Anton (and the rest of the Arlberg)

Frankly... any gnarly resort that isn't in France...

I'm intrigued by BBs argument tho. It's causing me somewhat of an internal struggle

Edit - except Chamonix obviously, but that's almost it's own special case...

(almost)

salsiccia1

Skiing is for ponces with too much money










(runs away and hides)

Dorset_Boy

ddraver said:

Verbier,
St. Anton (and the rest of the Arlberg)

Frankly... any gnarly resort that isn't in France...

I'm intrigued by BBs argument tho. It's causing me somewhat of an internal struggle

Edit - except Chamonix obviously, but that's almost it's own special case...

(almost)

Can't comment on St Anton as haven't been there.
Verbier, yes if the lifts haven't improved, then plentiful good skiing with crap lifts.
Chamonix, crap lift system and crap skiing unless you want serious off piste, so that fails the criteria!

TheBigBean

pblakeney said:

Better lifts = more people.
More people = Ruin nice places.

This is definitely true. Much better to ski somewhere quiet.

Dorset_Boy said:

I guess it depends in what you mean by 'quality of skiing'.
If you are a La Grave lover, anywhere pisted will be considered censored , but for 99% of skiers, La Grave would be an horrific experience.

Slow old lifts = longer queuing times = less time on the slopes = poor quality IMHO.

Bean, can you name some resorts with censored lift systems and great quality of skiing, that you won't have skied out in 48 hours there?

I've already admitted to being a snob about snow quality. Good skiing in my view means steep 'n' deep, but decent snow helps most situations.

I never ski a full day as I'm not fit enough, so time is less of an issue. I also rarely queue as I avoid busy times.

Most of north America has inferior lifts and superior skiing to Europe. Somewhere like Red Mountain is sublime, mountains and mountains of snow and no people. Unless things have changed, they used to have absolutely terrible lifts. It's not alone - I have never been, but the stories of digging out the chair lifts at Mt Baker make me want to go.

Even big name places like Lake Louise have relatively bad lifts, and there are few places in the world as good as the back side of Lake Louise.

I don't really have a concept of skiing out an area. It really doesn't need to be big to keep me entertained.

Chamonix is obviously excellent. Paying to access the Grand Montets lift less so (do you still do that), but a good example of a bad lift resulting in good skiing. Do that twice with a bit snow, and well, I'm done for the day.

Oh, and yes, not a fan of piste bashers and La Grave sounds like fun, but it's in France, so really requires a guide.

davidof

TheBigBean said:

Chamonix is obviously excellent. Paying to access the Grand Montets lift less so (do you still do that),

you don't, it's broke, you have to walk up on your Vera's

TheBigBean

davidof said:

TheBigBean said:

Chamonix is obviously excellent. Paying to access the Grand Montets lift less so (do you still do that),

you don't, it's broke, you have to walk up on your Vera's

I don't mind a bit of a hike, but isn't it something like 1400m of vertical?

ddraver

I don't know the whole story but Chamonix has had a disaster in the last few years. I think the Mayor and the owner of the loft company have been arrested for corruption now...

That said there's a new lift out of La Paz now...

(I was there in summer so didn't use them much)

Bean, sounds like you're up to La Grave. You NEED to go there, it is one of the best places I've ever been. Even in crap snow! Just...make it happen

TheBigBean

ddraver said:

Bean, sounds like you're up to La Grave. You NEED to go there, it is one of the best places I've ever been. Even in censored snow! Just...make it happen

Yes, I would like to go, but I would prefer to not have a guide. If I could split the costs it might be ok, but I'm billy no mates when it comes to skiing and seriously lacking in fitness. I tried twice to ski "The Dive" at Sunshine and failed both times due to my lack of a buddy! (the rules)

Plus, is it like everywhere else in France/Europe where they don't bother avalanche blasting off piste?

TheBigBean

Anyway, you get my points on lifts now?

ddraver

Well...hence why you need a guide.


That, and some of the couloirs end in a cliff...

shinyhelmut

TheBigBean said:

ddraver said:

Plus, is it like everywhere else in France/Europe where they don't bother avalanche blasting off piste?

If they're avalanche blasting then it's not really off piste.

bobmcstuff

salsiccia1 said:

Skiing is for ponces with too much money










(runs away and hides)

So.... How much did your bike cost

salsiccia1

bobmcstuff said:

salsiccia1 said:

Skiing is for ponces with too much money










(runs away and hides)

So.... How much did your bike cost

Bike one: £250 second-hand, 18 years ago
Bike two: built over 6 months off eBay about 15 years ago, value now probably about £1K

I'm a cycling fan, not a cyclist

TheBigBean

shinyhelmut said:

If they're avalanche blasting then it's not really off piste.

That's a bit naive

bobmcstuff

TheBigBean said:

pblakeney said:

Better lifts = more people.
More people = Ruin nice places.

This is definitely true. Much better to ski somewhere quiet.

Dorset_Boy said:

I guess it depends in what you mean by 'quality of skiing'.
If you are a La Grave lover, anywhere pisted will be considered censored , but for 99% of skiers, La Grave would be an horrific experience.

Slow old lifts = longer queuing times = less time on the slopes = poor quality IMHO.

Bean, can you name some resorts with censored lift systems and great quality of skiing, that you won't have skied out in 48 hours there?

I've already admitted to being a snob about snow quality. Good skiing in my view means steep 'n' deep, but decent snow helps most situations.

I never ski a full day as I'm not fit enough, so time is less of an issue. I also rarely queue as I avoid busy times.

Most of north America has inferior lifts and superior skiing to Europe. Somewhere like Red Mountain is sublime, mountains and mountains of snow and no people. Unless things have changed, they used to have absolutely terrible lifts. It's not alone - I have never been, but the stories of digging out the chair lifts at Mt Baker make me want to go.

Even big name places like Lake Louise have relatively bad lifts, and there are few places in the world as good as the back side of Lake Louise.

I don't really have a concept of skiing out an area. It really doesn't need to be big to keep me entertained.

Chamonix is obviously excellent. Paying to access the Grand Montets lift less so (do you still do that), but a good example of a bad lift resulting in good skiing. Do that twice with a bit snow, and well, I'm done for the day.

Oh, and yes, not a fan of piste bashers and La Grave sounds like fun, but it's in France, so really requires a guide.

I basically agree with this... Particularly that it doesn't take much to keep me entertained on snow, just small queues!

I did a 2 week trip to the Canadian Rockies in 2015 and it was really the best skiing I've done. Weirdly one of my most memorable days skiing was at Glenshee on a random Wednesday in February - quiet, great snow, bluebird, no wind and all the lifts open. All of those things are fairly unusual, but getting them all at the same time in Scotland is basically unheard of. Managed Alpine levels of vertical that day.

I'm not too arsed about having deep snow all the time though, although obviously I like it - this January I went to Bardonecchia, piste conditions were pretty good (very firm and fast, but not much ice) and I had a great time. Quiet, sunny, cheap(ish) lunches on the mountain. Rent some narrow skis and lean in

Snow of any kind is better than the office...

TheBigBean

...

davidof

TheBigBean said:

davidof said:

TheBigBean said:

Chamonix is obviously excellent. Paying to access the Grand Montets lift less so (do you still do that),

you don't, it's broke, you have to walk up on your Vera's

I don't mind a bit of a hike, but isn't it something like 1400m of vertical?

Just the top lift is out. I think that more like 600 isn't is?

bompington

bobmcstuff said:

Weirdly one of my most memorable days skiing was at Glenshee on a random Wednesday in February - quiet, great snow, bluebird, no wind and all the lifts open. All of those things are fairly unusual, but getting them all at the same time in Scotland is basically unheard of...

Snow of any kind is better than the office...

Indeed, the best kind of snow is snow you can get on. Any kind of snow is better when it's just an hour's drive up the road - those were rare conditions maybe McS, but not as rare as you'd think...

bobmcstuff

Unfortunately the "quiet" bit is rare unless you don't have to work during the week - at the time I was working my notice period, so I looked at the weather forecast and told my boss I wasn't coming in tomorrow!

If they had those conditions at the weekend the place would have been packed out, it gets very busy there at the weekends even in mediocre conditions.

ddraver

So what does the BRPR ski team think of Tignes for a season?

(3 valleys option is no more)