TDF 2020 - Stage 17 Grenoble - Méribel Col de la Loze 170 km *Spoilers*

blazing_saddles

jimmyjams said:

DeadCalm said:

blazing_saddles said:

DeadCalm said:

blazing_saddles said:

DeadCalm said:

blazing_saddles said:

RichN95. said:

Today's Combativity Award was given too....

....Julian Alaphilippe. LOL.

I guess the President needed a French 'winner'

Lets be honest, it's the only thing the French stand a chance of winning, because it's the only category where "match fixing" is possible.

I reckon it's the reason Thomas de Gendt can't really be arsed to get in the break any more, after they gave Barguil the overall award in 2017.

Curious who you think should have got it instead? Carapaz was the strongest rider in the break but strength doesn't equal combativity.

Personally, I'd have given it to Cosnefroy but have no argument with the eventual decision.

If you think Cosnefroy should have got it, then our opinions are poles apart.

You clearly have no concept of the definition of 'combativity'.

Edit: And I note you haven't accepted my invitation to suggest a more deserving winner.

No need to get touchy. Here is what it says:

the jury also awards a combativity award to the most aggressive rider at the end of each stage, with this rider allowed to wear a red bib the following race day.

I just don't view Cosnefroy's efforts as being aggressive

Carapaz on the other hand was on the attack from the flag, made the first break that almost got away, then again made the select group that did.
He chased down Alaphilippe when he opted for the suicidal attack after just 2kms of the final climb, then attacked, went solo, hung on, was almost caught, got away again, only to be reeled in within the last 3kms.

More deserving of the award in my book.

I wonder how others feel?

Not remotely touchy. The bit in bold suggests Alaphilippe was being super aggressive, no? He was the rider who made the most attacks from the break. Sure, Carapaz was the strongest and lasted the longest but that has nothing to do with combativity. Given that the jury have a historical reluctance to award the combativity award to the same rider on consecutive days, I think that the award to Alaphilippe is entirely defensible and certainly not worthy of your histrionic (but entirely predictable) attack.

Also, I wouldn't say Alaphilippe did a suicidal attack early on the final climb (Blazing's opinion), he did a test of his opponents – he does it all the time to try and judge them.

Why would you want to test your opponents when you have another hour to race (20kms in this case) solo and you are already at your limit?
Normally a rider would try and bluff. Through and off as quickly as not to be too obvious.
These digs are becoming Alaphilippe's tell and Carapaz has read him correctly on both occasions, by attacking and dropping him soon after.

ddraver

Frieboss is asking on Twitter if the Col de Loze is a Hit or Miss.

What do the BRPR Massiv (massif? lol) think?

I thought it was good. Certainly not something for every year but neither as stupid as The Angliru or Zoncolan.

Dorset_Boy

jimmyjams said:

Further to the brief discussion in an earlier thread about the climber's jersey, what is the point of it, when at the moment the current situation is:

KOM standings
1 Pogacar 66 pts
2 Roglic 63 pts
3 Lopez 51 pts

GC placings
1 Roglic 74:56:04
2 Pogacar 0:00:57
3 Lopez 0:01:26

If KOM is meant to be a different competition, as much as the green jersey is, surely it needs radically overhauling so that one of the riders who successfully competes for many of the climbs does eventually win it?

I think that is more a reflection this year of the lack of HC climbs earlier in the race, but there have been a lot of Cat 2 & 3s.

Dorset_Boy

ddraver said:

Frieboss is asking on Twitter if the Col de Loze is a Hit or Miss.

What do the BRPR Massiv (massif? lol) think?

I thought it was good. Certainly not something for every year but neither as stupid as The Angliru or Zoncolan.

Although it might be good for the pros, it was built for the amateur cyclings and I think it is just too difficult for ordinary cyclists. I believe it is a little easier from the Courchevel side, but still a tough climb from that side.

The local cyclists last year were saying it is too tough to become popular which is a real shame. Hopefully the planned route over from Meribel to Les Menuires will be a more achievable objective for ordinary riders.

above_the_cows

ddraver said:

Frieboss is asking on Twitter if the Col de Loze is a Hit or Miss.

What do the BRPR Massiv (massif? lol) think?

I thought it was good. Certainly not something for every year but neither as stupid as The Angliru or Zoncolan.

I liked it, better on the telly than in real life. I like a climb that looks steep even on the screen, but not like those silly walls they have in the Vuelta.

bobmcstuff

jimmyjams said:

Further to the brief discussion in an earlier thread about the climber's jersey, what is the point of it, when at the moment the current situation is:

KOM standings
1 Pogacar 66 pts
2 Roglic 63 pts
3 Lopez 51 pts

GC placings
1 Roglic 74:56:04
2 Pogacar 0:00:57
3 Lopez 0:01:26

If KOM is meant to be a different competition, as much as the green jersey is, surely it needs radically overhauling so that one of the riders who successfully competes for many of the climbs does eventually win it?

I don't necessarily mind the yellow jersey also being the KOM because it means they have won on the biggest climbs of the Tour, so hopefully the GC race has been interesting...

The polka dots earlier in the race is usually just someone from the smaller teams who clips off over the first few categorised hills and picks up some easy points. If someone like that won it would be a bit silly.

Barguil won it in 2017 - that was a proper win by a proper climber, which I enjoyed and made the jersey a different competition to the yellow jersey. Doesn't that meet your suggestion?

The thing is when that happens people start grumbling that the rider should be going for GC...

I think they need to have big KOM points on breakaway friendly stages. When it is combined with time bonuses at the end of key GC stages it inevitably leads to GC riders winning the KOM jersey.

gsk82

jimmyjams said:

Further to the brief discussion in an earlier thread about the climber's jersey, what is the point of it, when at the moment the current situation is:

KOM standings
1 Pogacar 66 pts
2 Roglic 63 pts
3 Lopez 51 pts

GC placings
1 Roglic 74:56:04
2 Pogacar 0:00:57
3 Lopez 0:01:26

If KOM is meant to be a different competition, as much as the green jersey is, surely it needs radically overhauling so that one of the riders who successfully competes for many of the climbs does eventually win it?

I was thinking the same earlier. This year is a bit of an outlier though. Despite all the claims about it being a climbers course and anti sprinter, I think it's proven to be a pretty crap route. There's only been a couple of proper mountain finishes and it's taken 17 stages for the overwhelming favourite and champion elect to take time on the road on a mountain stage.

ddraver

Dorset_Boy said:

I think it is just too difficult for ordinary cyclists. .

90% of the time it'll be ridden on hired e-bikes anyway. They crossed a nice looking MTB trail on the way up.

Not sure if you were a roadie in Tarentaise you'd head to the 3 Valleys...

But the question was more as a spectacle for fans not normos

Lanterne_Rogue

I'd like to see what happened if everyone hit that final climb with utterly fresh legs, something like 80km along the valley and then BANG!

Those eccentric and unpredictable changes in gradient almost guarantee that people can't mark each other out and just roll in as a block. It didn't seem gimmicky though, despite all that.

Dorset_Boy

ddraver said:

Dorset_Boy said:

I think it is just too difficult for ordinary cyclists. .

90% of the time it'll be ridden on hired e-bikes anyway. They crossed a nice looking MTB trail on the way up.

Not sure if you were a roadie in Tarentaise you'd head to the 3 Valleys...

But the question was more as a spectacle for fans not normos

The purpose of building the new roads and hosting this stage is to attract roadies. There's lots of great road riding around the Tarantaise, and it's really easily accessible from the likes of Meribel and Courchevel, especially if you have access to a vehicle.

RichN95.

jimmyjams said:

Further to the brief discussion in an earlier thread about the climber's jersey, what is the point of it, when at the moment the current situation is:

KOM standings
1 Pogacar 66 pts
2 Roglic 63 pts
3 Lopez 51 pts

GC placings
1 Roglic 74:56:04
2 Pogacar 0:00:57
3 Lopez 0:01:26

If KOM is meant to be a different competition, as much as the green jersey is, surely it needs radically overhauling so that one of the riders who successfully competes for many of the climbs does eventually win it?

That's very unusual though. As much an anomaly as Chartreau ten years ago. Only one GC winner has also one the KOM in the last 50 years (although for some reason Sastre never inherited it from Kohl when he wen).

Perhaps it's a result of reducing the teams to eight, meaning there are less strong wild card riders getting into into breaks in the first two weeks.

pblakeney

ddraver said:

Frieboss is asking on Twitter if the Col de Loze is a Hit or Miss.

What do the BRPR Massiv (massif? lol) think?

I thought it was good. Certainly not something for every year but neither as stupid as The Angliru or Zoncolan.

Dunno. I've done the Angliru and Zoncolan in realistic virtual.
I think Col de Loze looked tougher today. Hit, by the way.

davidof

Dorset_Boy said:

Although it might be good for the pros, it was built for the amateur cyclings and I think it is just too difficult for ordinary cyclists. I believe it is a little easier from the Courchevel side, but still a tough climb from that side..

the Courchevel side is easier and I think this is where they run the Eiffage TT up when they plough the road in spring.

https://youtu.be/7iYKL6D87_8

Pross

ddraver said:

Frieboss is asking on Twitter if the Col de Loze is a Hit or Miss.

What do the BRPR Massiv (massif? lol) think?

I thought it was good. Certainly not something for every year but neither as stupid as The Angliru or Zoncolan.

Thought it was an interesting climb. Pretty typical Tour HC climb to start but then the altitude and steep ramps that break the rhythm and stop trains being effective. Not a novelty climb though, the steepest ramps were short enough that we didn't have to see the top climbers zig zagging across the road. Something different and challenging without being stupid.

jimmyjams

blazing_saddles said:

jimmyjams said:

DeadCalm said:

blazing_saddles said:

DeadCalm said:

blazing_saddles said:

DeadCalm said:

blazing_saddles said:

RichN95. said:

Today's Combativity Award was given too....

....Julian Alaphilippe. LOL.

I guess the President needed a French 'winner'

Lets be honest, it's the only thing the French stand a chance of winning, because it's the only category where "match fixing" is possible.

I reckon it's the reason Thomas de Gendt can't really be arsed to get in the break any more, after they gave Barguil the overall award in 2017.

Curious who you think should have got it instead? Carapaz was the strongest rider in the break but strength doesn't equal combativity.

Personally, I'd have given it to Cosnefroy but have no argument with the eventual decision.

If you think Cosnefroy should have got it, then our opinions are poles apart.

You clearly have no concept of the definition of 'combativity'.

Edit: And I note you haven't accepted my invitation to suggest a more deserving winner.

No need to get touchy. Here is what it says:

the jury also awards a combativity award to the most aggressive rider at the end of each stage, with this rider allowed to wear a red bib the following race day.

I just don't view Cosnefroy's efforts as being aggressive

Carapaz on the other hand was on the attack from the flag, made the first break that almost got away, then again made the select group that did.
He chased down Alaphilippe when he opted for the suicidal attack after just 2kms of the final climb, then attacked, went solo, hung on, was almost caught, got away again, only to be reeled in within the last 3kms.

More deserving of the award in my book.

I wonder how others feel?

Not remotely touchy. The bit in bold suggests Alaphilippe was being super aggressive, no? He was the rider who made the most attacks from the break. Sure, Carapaz was the strongest and lasted the longest but that has nothing to do with combativity. Given that the jury have a historical reluctance to award the combativity award to the same rider on consecutive days, I think that the award to Alaphilippe is entirely defensible and certainly not worthy of your histrionic (but entirely predictable) attack.

Also, I wouldn't say Alaphilippe did a suicidal attack early on the final climb (Blazing's opinion), he did a test of his opponents – he does it all the time to try and judge them.

Why would you want to test your opponents when you have another hour to race (20kms in this case) solo and you are already at your limit?
Normally a rider would try and bluff. Through and off as quickly as not to be too obvious.
These digs are becoming Alaphilippe's tell and Carapaz has read him correctly on both occasions, by attacking and dropping him soon after.

I'm just relating what I feel I've noticed about what Alaphilippe does, even early on a break, test his companions. It makes sense really.

RichN95.

pblakeney said:

ddraver said:

Frieboss is asking on Twitter if the Col de Loze is a Hit or Miss.

What do the BRPR Massiv (massif? lol) think?

I thought it was good. Certainly not something for every year but neither as stupid as The Angliru or Zoncolan.

Dunno. I've done the Angliru and Zoncolan in realistic virtual.
I think Col de Loze looked tougher today. Hit, by the way.

The difference with the Angliru and Zoncolan is they have the stupid bits mid climb which breaks things up earlier, while the hard bits were all at the end of Loze and at greater altitude.

I don't think it is ready to replace Ventoux as the Tour's hardest climb just yet. As riders learn more about it, it will lose a bit of it's bite.

DeVlaeminck

I thought the climb was a hit but as far as attracting cyclists I'm not sure I want to be riding km after km at 20% or descending on the brakes either - or the alternative hitting 60mph on a 3 metre wide cycle path. Still if I was in the area I'm sure I'd ride it once and if it becomes well used in the Tour it'll become a draw.

pblakeney

RichN95. said:

The difference with the Angliru and Zoncolan is they have the stupid bits mid climb which breaks things up earlier, while the hard bits were all at the end of Loze and at greater altitude.

I don't think it is ready to replace Ventoux as the Tour's hardest climb just yet. As riders learn more about it, it will lose a bit of it's bite.

I disagree with the first part. The Angrilu is definitely hard in the last 4 kms.
I agree with the second part. An addition though, it will always depend on how much you are being forced to race. I'm sure Yates would enjoy an off season pootle up there, I doubt he enjoyed today.

RichN95.

pblakeney said:

I disagree with the first part. The Angrilu is definitely hard in the last 4 kms.

Of course but there are also 15+% bits 7km from the finish and doesn't let up until the last k. Loze doesn't hit double figures until the last five k.

pblakeney

I think we are disagreeing to agree. 😉
I think today was harder than the Angliru, but the easiest part of the Angliru is the middle section. #nitpicking

RichN95.

pblakeney said:

I think we are disagreeing to agree. 😉
I think today was harder than the Angliru, but the easiest part of the Angliru is the middle section. #nitpicking

We're splitting hairs. The easy bit you mention is just before the middle where it gets nasty

Lanterne_Rogue

I think the main take away is that if the Tour can go up a 3m wide cyclepath with 25% sections, the Rosedale Chimney is now definitely in for the Tour de Yorkshire, if it survives.

webboo

The problem with Rosedale Chimney is not whether the riders can get up it, it’s the team cars. When the Milk race went up, It was hard to get your breath due to the smell of burning clutches.

rick_chasey

ddraver said:

Frieboss is asking on Twitter if the Col de Loze is a Hit or Miss.

What do the BRPR Massiv (massif? lol) think?

I thought it was good. Certainly not something for every year but neither as stupid as The Angliru or Zoncolan.

In the absence of longer stages, I don't know what else organisers can do to arrive at man v man racing, which is what we watch the mountains to see.

Watching 20kph trains is even more boring than 50kph trains, so you might as well make it steep and long enough that teammates are of limited use.

kingstongraham

Agree with that - proper racing between the top men for more than 200 metres has to be a good thing.

And if I was in the area, I'd give it a go, but only once.

gsk82

webboo said:

The problem with Rosedale Chimney is not whether the riders can get up it, it’s the team cars. When the Milk race went up, It was hard to get your breath due to the smell of burning clutches.

Finish at the top then there's no need for team cars. You aren't getting going again if you stop, so the cars aren't needed.

amrushton

It looks an interesting route. if you are in the area (Tarentaise) it adds another climb esp in that area. You can ride to Val Thorens or Val Morel, Courcheval or the Madeleine. thats at that end of the valley. Go to the other end and you do the Cormet (in todays stage), the climb over to La Thuile or the Iseran. Wouldnt want to be on The Col de Loze on a cold or inclement day. Dave (Shoddy) Everett has a vlog on it on the Cycling Tips website

ddraver

My thoughts are that given the cycling available in all of France, or even the Alps, why go to three valleys.

Its a great ski area sure, but man are they everything bad about french ski resorts...

TheBigBean

ddraver said:

My thoughts are that given the cycling available in all of France, or even the Alps, why go to three valleys.

Its a great ski area sure, but man are they everything bad about french ski resorts...

I have a similar view when it comes to skiing although I'm a bit of a snob when it comes to snow.

ddraver

I've had some bad luck there too, in fairness. (That poor ski tech ☺️)

Still I might be going there this winter so I can give a fuller opinion next Tour...