TDF 2020 - Stage 15: Lyon - Grand Colombier 174.5 km *Spoilers*

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Comments

  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,262
    DeadCalm said:



    As it happens, the early collapse of the French challenge has made it a much duller race in my view. Sure, they'd have inevitably failed but Bardet, Martin and Pinot would almost certainly have attacked JV before now if misfortune hadn't respectively befallen them.

    Three riders who don't have a single World Stage race win between them in 25 seasons as pros aren't really much of a 'challenge'
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • DeadCalm
    DeadCalm Posts: 4,249
    RichN95. said:

    DeadCalm said:



    As it happens, the early collapse of the French challenge has made it a much duller race in my view. Sure, they'd have inevitably failed but Bardet, Martin and Pinot would almost certainly have attacked JV before now if misfortune hadn't respectively befallen them.

    Three riders who don't have a single World Stage race win between them in 25 seasons as pros aren't really much of a 'challenge'
    That is a fair point. I do think that, were they there and on their game though, they would have enlivened the race, made it a little less straightforward for J-V and possibly tempted some other riders (possibly Porte or Uran) to have a go. Probably wishful thinking on my part.

    I was desperate for the Sky domination to end but we have simply exchanged one dominant team for another. It is no more boring than before in my view, but it is pretty boring. Thank the Lord for Team Sunweb.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,912
    DeadCalm said:

    blazing_saddles said:

    ddraver said:

    The only hair to split between Sky and JY is whether or not you prefer your red white and blue arranged in a cross or horizontal stripes...

    Funnily enough all my Dutch friends who used to think Sky were boring boring boring all think mountain trains are suddenly amazingly exciting.

    (I am struggling to resist pointing this out, it's fair enough really)

    Yup, that's about the size of it.
    Two things that never seem to change in cycling.
    Nationalistic hypocrisy and the French always being able to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
    None worse for that than the Brits.

    As it happens, the early collapse of the French challenge has made it a much duller race in my view. Sure, they'd have inevitably failed but Bardet, Martin and Pinot would almost certainly have attacked JV before now if misfortune hadn't respectively befallen them.

    The complete collapse of Bernal hasn't helped either. The Bernal of 2019 would have been attacking by now.


    This .
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • david37
    david37 Posts: 1,313
    I dont know what you all expect of JV, they are here to win, not to entertain. though I imagine there's one country in Europe thats very entertained right now.

  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,262
    david37 said:

    I dont know what you all expect of JV, they are here to win, not to entertain. though I imagine there's one country in Europe thats very entertained right now.

    They are indeed. I'd just rather Roglic brought a little bit of himself to the performance if he is to be the winner. I also think that their dominance may very well end up in defeat as Roglic maybe hasn't used his team to the best advantage.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • DeadCalm
    DeadCalm Posts: 4,249
    RichN95. said:

    david37 said:

    I dont know what you all expect of JV, they are here to win, not to entertain. though I imagine there's one country in Europe thats very entertained right now.

    They are indeed. I'd just rather Roglic brought a little bit of himself to the performance if he is to be the winner. I also think that their dominance may very well end up in defeat as Roglic maybe hasn't used his team to the best advantage.
    Agreed. I'm not convinced Bernal was the strongest rider last year and Ineos weren't as strong as they had been in previous years but Ineos used the threat of Thomas brilliantly to deter the other riders when Bernal attacked. If J-V had played their cards better and Dumoulin hadn't lost time doing turns he didn't need to do (apparently his call rather than the team's) they'd probably have been in a position to double team and dispose of Pogacar.
  • jimmyjams
    jimmyjams Posts: 784
    Lanterne_Rogue said:

    specialgueststar said:

    G Martin broken derailleur. Does that happen at this level? Campagnolo ?

    Hangers are sacrificial, aren't they? Probably got caught by a pedal or something - there was quite a bit of jockeying for position going on.
    Yes, it's rare for a derailleur to break, it's usually the derailleur hanger which goes/snaps. Purposely made of softer, brittler metal so that if a bike gets a knock in that area, it gives first rather than either the derailleur or one of the stays taking the impact.

    G. Martin only got that bike about 20 mins earlier when his first one had a defect, and within 5 mins he already had to consult the mechanic, although kept the second bike for a further 15 mins, until whatever went wrong with the derailleur. Maybe the hanger was already cracked (but unnoticed) when he took the second bike, and then later it just gave completely.
  • jimmyjams
    jimmyjams Posts: 784
    pblakeney said:

    jimmyjams said:

    rick_chasey said:



    Jungels getting knocked off on the way down.
    "What goes around, comes around"

    (I'm not so neutral in my judgement about fault in the Jungels/Higuita incident as some of those in this forum)
    Does not cheer me up, and I am neutral.
    Sad when cyclists take a DM readership stance.
    pblakeney said:

    jimmyjams said:

    rick_chasey said:



    Jungels getting knocked off on the way down.
    "What goes around, comes around"

    (I'm not so neutral in my judgement about fault in the Jungels/Higuita incident as some of those in this forum)
    Does not cheer me up, and I am neutral.
    Sad when cyclists take a DM readership stance.
    A DM stance, god forbid! I think both riders were at fault, but it seemed to me most forumites were thinking Higuita the more so, 60/40, whereas I judged it the other way around.
    And idioms come into being because whatever they state does sometimes coincidentally happen, not because one wishes it to. (One might warn Coopster, with his virus opinions something might "come back to bite him", without wishing it does)

    About 5 years ago a similar incident happened to me, where I was in the Higuita role. I hadn't actually looked behind, like he did, but to the side, and I do think I wasn't attentive enough, so it was partly my fault. But that doesn't mean a rider ahead can without thought simply change his line so abruptly and so much, to potentially or actually collide with you. The (not) changing line abruptly argument doesn't just apply to sprints. I was a hospital/operation case.

    Unfortunately the 'goes around' idiom later applied to the guy who brought me down (with whom I'm actually friends - same cycling club, shared a room together for a cycling week in the Alps). Two years ago this month, a car came up to him from behind and apparently just overlooked him. He ended up in a ditch, bike in bits, more or less every bone in his body broken, 7-8 months in hospital, multiple operations.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    edited September 2020
    RichN95. said:

    david37 said:

    I dont know what you all expect of JV, they are here to win, not to entertain. though I imagine there's one country in Europe thats very entertained right now.

    They are indeed. I'd just rather Roglic brought a little bit of himself to the performance if he is to be the winner. I also think that their dominance may very well end up in defeat as Roglic maybe hasn't used his team to the best advantage.
    I think we can all hope both these things come true.

    He is *so dull* I can't quite believe anyone can be that dull. Either on the bike or the mic.

    I like to watch the champagne popping videos after each stage and Christ, he's not gonna make these guys bleed for him, that's for sure.
    _
  • jimmyjams
    jimmyjams Posts: 784
    Pross said:

    The thing JV know by now that Pogacar is capable of sitting there and outsprinting Roglic but they don't know if he can sustain an effort. Then again, maybe they know Roglic isn't as strong as he appears and are therefore content to let Pogacar just chip away at the lead a few seconds at a time in expectation that it won't be enough before the TT. It's such a shame he lost that time in the crosswinds giving Roglic the cushion although had that not been the case Pogacar would potentially be leading and defending the jersey with his team would be difficult (would probably have led to more interesting tactics though from JV).

    I find it amusing that some now think it a pity that Pogacar lost some time in the cross winds, when echelons generally seem to be so welcomed by many here.

    I think the question mark about whether Pogacar can sustain a longer sprint also in a way applies to Roglic, by which I mean whether he could counter a long attack from farther out. I don't think he could if more or less isolated, thus making his team so important to him.
    If Pogacar and some of the other GC contenders worked together on the Meribel day, attacked early, and were successful in disturbing the JV team, I think Pogacar could more or less eliminate his current deficiency, giving him the TT to round it off.
    I'm hoping.
  • 50x11
    50x11 Posts: 408
    specialgueststar said:

    50x11 said:

    specialgueststar said:

    That's why I liked it . Roglic playing a poker hand surrounded by domestiques of unknown capabilities on the day. Then WvA does an unbelievable turn - but still more believe able than Kireyenka.This wasn't stem boy puffing on his inhalers and riding away. This was racing at its best

    What a bizarre comment.
    Oh sorry. Did I not write all the words YOU think. I can't apologize enough 😅😂
    "stem boy" is childish, you write like a child.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,490
    jimmyjams said:

    pblakeney said:

    jimmyjams said:

    rick_chasey said:



    Jungels getting knocked off on the way down.
    "What goes around, comes around"

    (I'm not so neutral in my judgement about fault in the Jungels/Higuita incident as some of those in this forum)
    Does not cheer me up, and I am neutral.
    Sad when cyclists take a DM readership stance.
    pblakeney said:

    jimmyjams said:

    rick_chasey said:



    Jungels getting knocked off on the way down.
    "What goes around, comes around"

    (I'm not so neutral in my judgement about fault in the Jungels/Higuita incident as some of those in this forum)
    Does not cheer me up, and I am neutral.
    Sad when cyclists take a DM readership stance.
    A DM stance, god forbid!...
    The DM stance comment applies to anyone thinking, "They did *that*, so getting hit by a van is fair." You appear not only subscribe, but are doubling down.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • salsiccia1
    salsiccia1 Posts: 3,725
    rick_chasey said:

    RichN95. said:

    david37 said:

    I dont know what you all expect of JV, they are here to win, not to entertain. though I imagine there's one country in Europe thats very entertained right now.

    They are indeed. I'd just rather Roglic brought a little bit of himself to the performance if he is to be the winner. I also think that their dominance may very well end up in defeat as Roglic maybe hasn't used his team to the best advantage.
    I think we can all hope both these things come true.

    He is *so dull* I can't quite believe anyone can be that dull. Either on the bike or the mic.

    I like to watch the champagne popping videos after each stage and Christ, he's not gonna make these guys bleed for him, that's for sure.
    Is that a cultural thing, or perhaps even a language thing? Slavic speakers often appear to have a flat, monotone voice when speaking other languages. He might be the life and soul behind the scenes.
    It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,593
    jimmyjams said:

    Pross said:

    The thing JV know by now that Pogacar is capable of sitting there and outsprinting Roglic but they don't know if he can sustain an effort. Then again, maybe they know Roglic isn't as strong as he appears and are therefore content to let Pogacar just chip away at the lead a few seconds at a time in expectation that it won't be enough before the TT. It's such a shame he lost that time in the crosswinds giving Roglic the cushion although had that not been the case Pogacar would potentially be leading and defending the jersey with his team would be difficult (would probably have led to more interesting tactics though from JV).

    I find it amusing that some now think it a pity that Pogacar lost some time in the cross winds, when echelons generally seem to be so welcomed by many here.

    I think the question mark about whether Pogacar can sustain a longer sprint also in a way applies to Roglic, by which I mean whether he could counter a long attack from farther out. I don't think he could if more or less isolated, thus making his team so important to him.
    If Pogacar and some of the other GC contenders worked together on the Meribel day, attacked early, and were successful in disturbing the JV team, I think Pogacar could more or less eliminate his current deficiency, giving him the TT to round it off.
    I'm hoping.
    At the time it felt like it might force Pogacar to attack which it did the following day. Maybe a smaller gap would have been the ideal scenario.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,717
    edited September 2020
    ***Edit - Ok, I swear Dr. Hutch tweeted about the 20s thing, but I can't find it. Obviously the tweet I posted was the wrong one***

    So if he can take 20s in the TT, he needs another 20 over the next 6 days.

    That's a small gap and a fluffed sprint from Roglic...

    It's not over

    (2/3 ITV pundits predict Pog FTW...)
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • david37
    david37 Posts: 1,313
    RichN95. said:

    david37 said:

    I dont know what you all expect of JV, they are here to win, not to entertain. though I imagine there's one country in Europe thats very entertained right now.

    They are indeed. I'd just rather Roglic brought a little bit of himself to the performance if he is to be the winner. I also think that their dominance may very well end up in defeat as Roglic maybe hasn't used his team to the best advantage.
    Im sure this week has more to offer :)
  • salsiccia1
    salsiccia1 Posts: 3,725
    ddraver said:

    2/3 ITV pundits predict Pog FTW...

    I think that was wishful thinking on their behalf, perhaps trying to keep viewers interested. If they all said it's over, Roglic has won it then that's not going encourage everyone to tune in. I just can't see JV letting Pog go or Pog beating Roglic in the TT.

    2/3 pundits also said Porte would come 3rd and I can't see that either.

    I'd love to be wrong on both counts though!

    It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.
  • coopster_the_1st
    coopster_the_1st Posts: 5,158
    jimmyjams said:


    If Pogacar and some of the other GC contenders worked together on the Meribel day, attacked early, and were successful in disturbing the JV team, I think Pogacar could more or less eliminate his current deficiency, giving him the TT to round it off.
    I'm hoping.

    The same approach was put forward every year as a way to beat the Sky/Ineos train and it never happened.

    Who is going to be the GC contender who is going to attack first and thus sacrifices themself in this scenario?

    Anyone outside of the top 3 will be the responsibility for Porte/Trek to chase down as they are never going to be good enough to gain enough time against the mountain domestics of the JV train to threaten Roglics position.

    Pogacar may continue to wait for the last 250m before sprinting for the win but Roglic will just ride his wheel thus not giving away any time. Roglic is not going to lose more than a few seconds to Pogacar in the TT unless he has a bad day.

    I see a week of large breaks going to the line and taking all the bonuses while the JV train save their energy for the final climb of the day.
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,108
    Yep JV must be weighing up with 40 seconds is enough in the TT and if they think it is then they are going to try and let breaks take any bonuses.

    From Pogacar's point of view his tactics may depend on whether he can build a bigger advantage over 3rd. If he can get 2-3 minutes it gives him more freedom to gamble on an earlier attack without worrying so much that he may lose ground to Porte or whoever. If it remains tight then it's likely to be a case of a late attempt to shake Roglic and gain 15-20 seconds and see what happens in the TT.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • DeadCalm
    DeadCalm Posts: 4,249
    Pogacar beat Roglic by just 9 seconds in the Slovenian National Champs TT over 15.7km.
    Last year, in the Vuelta, Roglc beat Pogacar by almost a minute and a half over 36.2km.
    Coincidentally, stage 20 is also 36.2km and the profile looks more similar to the Vuelta stage than the National Champs race. I make Roglic the favourite for the TT.
  • gsk82
    gsk82 Posts: 3,620
    There isn't a chance in hell that pogacar will beat Roglic in the TT. He needs to find a couple of minutes before then.
    "Unfortunately these days a lot of people don’t understand the real quality of a bike" Ernesto Colnago
  • jimmyjams
    jimmyjams Posts: 784
    pblakeney said:

    jimmyjams said:

    pblakeney said:

    jimmyjams said:

    rick_chasey said:



    Jungels getting knocked off on the way down.
    "What goes around, comes around"

    (I'm not so neutral in my judgement about fault in the Jungels/Higuita incident as some of those in this forum)
    Does not cheer me up, and I am neutral.
    Sad when cyclists take a DM readership stance.
    pblakeney said:

    jimmyjams said:

    rick_chasey said:



    Jungels getting knocked off on the way down.
    "What goes around, comes around"

    (I'm not so neutral in my judgement about fault in the Jungels/Higuita incident as some of those in this forum)
    Does not cheer me up, and I am neutral.
    Sad when cyclists take a DM readership stance.
    A DM stance, god forbid!...
    The DM stance comment applies to anyone thinking, "They did *that*, so getting hit by a van is fair." You appear not only subscribe, but are doubling down.
    I haven't thought for a second what happened was fair. For whatever reason, you appear to completely misunderstand (presuming you aren't trolling).
  • jimmyjams
    jimmyjams Posts: 784
    I see Jungels tweeted: “I sincerely want to apologize to Sergio Higuita and @Efprocycling for my move at the beginning of the race. It was not my intention to cause this crash but I am absolutely at fault”. I think it an exaggeration to say 'absolutely' but very diplomatic of him.
    (In an interview after the race Jungels was similarly diplomatic wrt the van incident, saying: “It was bad luck; I was in the wrong place at the wrong moment”). A gentleman!

    EF later announced that, after hospital examination, Higuita actually had nothing broken. Although I can imagine bad hand/finger-bruising could restrict how well one can operate the breaks, and certainly any temporary finger dislocation.

    While in a rest day interview Jungels suggested he might still try for a stage win, on a day when a break might be successful. (Stage 19 perhaps = my guess not his words)
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,490
    jimmyjams said:


    I haven't thought for a second what happened was fair. For whatever reason, you appear to completely misunderstand (presuming you aren't trolling).

    Not trolling. Based on this comment regarding being hit by a van.
    jimmyjams said:


    "What goes around, comes around"

    As he has said sorry it is as well to move on.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • zest28
    zest28 Posts: 403
    edited September 2020
    darkhairedlord said:

    I'm surprised Ineos didn't take moscon to disrupt JV.

    I am more suprised Ineos did not take Thomas. Thomas would still be capable of hanging on to the JV train despite being a domestique for Bernal.

    If Thomas would come in to shape, he would have no problem beating Roglic and Pogacar.

    Dumoulin is also not currently in his GT winning form, but he is still a key player in the JV team.
  • m.r.m.
    m.r.m. Posts: 3,486
    zest28 said:

    darkhairedlord said:

    I'm surprised Ineos didn't take moscon to disrupt JV.

    If Thomas would come in to shape, he would have no problem beating Roglic and Pogacar.
    That is a rather bold claim. Thomas hasn't shown much for two years. This is a wonky season, but nonetheless he has only himself to blame for not being ready for the Tour. If he had shown form in the Dauphiné (or before), he would have gone to the Tour.
    PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 2023
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,575
    m.r.m. said:



    That is a rather bold claim. Thomas hasn't shown much for two years. This is a wonky season, but nonetheless he has only himself to blame for not being ready for the Tour. If he had shown form in the Dauphiné (or before), he would have gone to the Tour.

    He was the runner up in last year's Tour.

    From what we've seen in Tirreno over the past week, and what's been reported elsewhere, his problem wasn't his underlying form, rather he'd over trained and was in need of a rest.
  • zest28
    zest28 Posts: 403
    edited September 2020
    m.r.m. said:

    zest28 said:

    darkhairedlord said:

    I'm surprised Ineos didn't take moscon to disrupt JV.

    If Thomas would come in to shape, he would have no problem beating Roglic and Pogacar.
    That is a rather bold claim. Thomas hasn't shown much for two years. This is a wonky season, but nonetheless he has only himself to blame for not being ready for the Tour. If he had shown form in the Dauphiné (or before), he would have gone to the Tour.
    Thomas was ready for the tour (as a support rider) considering he was better than the Ineos domestiques who are currently in the TdF. You also see how Thomas is currently performing in Italy and that he would have been a great asset in the TdF.

    And if Richie Porte can keep up with Roglic and Pogacar, it is not a bold claim that Thomas in shape would easily beat Roglic and Pogacar since he is alot better than Porte usually.

    The current Thomas not at his best, would still be able to hang on the JV train atleast (seems other Ineos domestiques were also able to hold the pace of JV except for Bernal)

    And what you mean hasn’t shown much for the last two years? He finished 2nd in the TdF last year and that was only because Bernal lucked himself into the race being cancelled during his breakaway.

  • m.r.m.
    m.r.m. Posts: 3,486
    edited September 2020
    By that argument, the runner up of last year's Tour disposes of the top 2, who have shown no weakness or next to no weakness so far, of this year with ease? I'm not convinced at all.

    He had to show something in Tirreno and while he was decent, he still lost to Yates. I think he will win the Giro (due to the ITT's), but I hardly think he is leaps and bounds better than Pogacar and Roglic.
    PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 2023
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,730
    edited September 2020
    m.r.m. said:

    zest28 said:

    darkhairedlord said:

    I'm surprised Ineos didn't take moscon to disrupt JV.

    If Thomas would come in to shape, he would have no problem beating Roglic and Pogacar.
    That is a rather bold claim. Thomas hasn't shown much for two years. This is a wonky season, but nonetheless he has only himself to blame for not being ready for the Tour. If he had shown form in the Dauphiné (or before), he would have gone to the Tour.
    Talking of bold claims, I guess you skipped last year's Tour.
    Pray who has shown form for Ineos at this Tour?
    It's quite clear from Tirreno, that Geraint wasn't far off.
    Slightly over-trained is what I had heard too.
    Again, judging from the state of the team they sent, it wasn't any individual rider who was at fault, but the Covid calculated programme.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.

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