TDF 2020 - Stage 15: Lyon - Grand Colombier 174.5 km *Spoilers*
Comments
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Pogacar is super strong indeed and he does it without support. He just sits on the JV train and gets it done. He is the only one who can beat Roglic.richard_t._biscuit said:Jumbo were dominant à la Sky of old, but ultimately the Sky train worked because Froome could finish it off in a dominant fashion, either in the climbs or failing that the TT(s). I'm not convinced Roglic has that over Pogacar.
Jumbo can control the race all they want, but if Pogacar is just a little bit stronger in the final of summit finishes and the TT, with only 40 seconds in a two horse race he can afford to sit on the Jumbo train just as much as Roglic and still have a damn good shot at GC.
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Exactly. Apparently, I woke my hungover dad up one morning with the question ‘would you rather be boiled in oil or eaten by a lion?’.rick_chasey said:
Loving this splitting of hairs between previous sky teams and this current jumbo.RichN95. said:tailwindhome said:I enjoyed that today.
Wouldn't necessarily want to watch it again tomorrow.
But there's something entertaining about watching a dominant display.
There is, but in the end there's an individual winner, so as some point I'd like to see that individual show they are the best themselves. At least the Sky winners did that at some point. Roglic is showing that he is the second best sprinter of the GC guys1 -
I tend to agree with this.blazing_saddles said:
I think there is a bit more than a hair splitting as to how Froome used to finish off the Sky train's effort and RoboRog trying to use an arguably stronger Jumbo train as an uphill sprint leadout.rick_chasey said:
Loving this splitting of hairs between previous sky teams and this current jumbo.RichN95. said:tailwindhome said:I enjoyed that today.
Wouldn't necessarily want to watch it again tomorrow.
But there's something entertaining about watching a dominant display.
There is, but in the end there's an individual winner, so as some point I'd like to see that individual show they are the best themselves. At least the Sky winners did that at some point. Roglic is showing that he is the second best sprinter of the GC guys
Like I said during the stage, I didn't think it was possible to make the train concept look more boring than Sky, but Jumbo managed that too.
I think the issue for JV partly was/is that Pogacar is so strong. That meant no incentive for Roglic to attack say 2k from the end because Pogacar would have been able to match him and outsprint him (as he did anyway).
Shame about Pogacar's team support really as head to head he seems to be the only one who has an edge on Roglic. Roglic still having 2 teammates left meant there was less potential gain for Pogacar attacking earlier either.0 -
Laurent Jalabert thinks the same as you , Roglic could lose it on the TT. However leading on GC can bring out the best in riders in the time trial.richard_t._biscuit said:Jumbo were dominant à la Sky of old, but ultimately the Sky train worked because Froome could finish it off in a dominant fashion, either in the climbs or failing that the TT(s). I'm not convinced Roglic has that over Pogacar.
Jumbo can control the race all they want, but if Pogacar is just a little bit stronger in the final of summit finishes and the TT, with only 40 seconds in a two horse race he can afford to sit on the Jumbo train just as much as Roglic and still have a damn good shot at GC.BASI Nordic Ski Instructor
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The thing JV know by now that Pogacar is capable of sitting there and outsprinting Roglic but they don't know if he can sustain an effort. Then again, maybe they know Roglic isn't as strong as he appears and are therefore content to let Pogacar just chip away at the lead a few seconds at a time in expectation that it won't be enough before the TT. It's such a shame he lost that time in the crosswinds giving Roglic the cushion although had that not been the case Pogacar would potentially be leading and defending the jersey with his team would be difficult (would probably have led to more interesting tactics though from JV).0
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It certainly would have been more interesting for the race to have Pogacar in yellow yesterday1
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blazing_saddles said:
I think there is a bit more than a hair splitting as to how Froome used to finish off the Sky train's effort and RoboRog trying to use an arguably stronger Jumbo train as an uphill sprint leadout.
Like I said during the stage, I didn't think it was possible to make the train concept look more boring than Sky, but Jumbo managed that too.
The thing is that some people frequently said about Sky's winners that they only won because of their team and that if Rider X had been their leader they would have won. And how it was impossible to beat them. But in each case (maybe not Bernal) their winner had shown clear superiority at some point.
Now, though, we may genuinely have a situation where the strongest team isn't lead by the best rider (although no worse than second best). And for all their dominance it's quite easy to envisage them not winning.Twitter: @RichN950 -
That's why I liked it . Roglic playing a poker hand surrounded by domestiques of unknown capabilities on the day. Then WvA does an unbelievable turn - but still more believe able than Kireyenka.This wasn't stem boy puffing on his inhalers and riding away. This was racing at its best0
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Seriously?specialgueststar said:That's why I liked it . Roglic playing a poker hand surrounded by domestiques of unknown capabilities on the day. Then WvA does an unbelievable turn - but still more believe able than Kireyenka.This wasn't stem boy puffing on his inhalers and riding away. This was racing at its best
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Straw man argument, as no-one here said the above argument.RichN95. said:blazing_saddles said:
I think there is a bit more than a hair splitting as to how Froome used to finish off the Sky train's effort and RoboRog trying to use an arguably stronger Jumbo train as an uphill sprint leadout.
Like I said during the stage, I didn't think it was possible to make the train concept look more boring than Sky, but Jumbo managed that too.
The thing is that some people frequently said about Sky's winners that they only won because of their team and that if Rider X had been their leader they would have won. And how it was impossible to beat them. But in each case (maybe not Bernal) their winner had shown clear superiority at some point.
Now, though, we may genuinely have a situation where the strongest team isn't lead by the best rider (although no worse than second best). And for all their dominance it's quite easy to envisage them not winning.
There is also the obvious point that you can win the Tour and not be the strongest rider; bad luck with mechanical and getting caught out in cross winds is part of the job.
Pog is marginally stronger, though we'll see how he goes in the TT, but he had bad luck in the cross-winds.
Though no-one on Jumbo is stronger than Roglic for GC. That's nonsense to suggest otherwise.
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rick_chasey said:
Straw man argument, as no-one here said the above argument.
There's a world beyond this forum RickTwitter: @RichN950 -
I don't think the JV train is as strong as some people are making out. It wasn't like they stressed the whole field to the point where they couldn't counter when Roglic went. Richie Porte even took the lead in that department. Froome and the Sky train in the past would make mincemeat of this lot.0
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Unknown capabilities?specialgueststar said:That's why I liked it . Roglic playing a poker hand surrounded by domestiques of unknown capabilities on the day. Then WvA does an unbelievable turn - but still more believe able than Kireyenka.This wasn't stem boy puffing on his inhalers and riding away. This was racing at its best
You mean you missed the clue of having a recent Grand Tour winner take over from the runner up in Lombardia, so Roglic's best mountain support could keep his feet up?
Methinks you have been blinded by your dislike of the other lot and are seeing just what you want to see."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.1 -
I suppose they haven't done a Gewiss off the front of the penultimate climbhypster said:I don't think the JV train is as strong as some people are making out. It wasn't like they stressed the whole field to the point where they couldn't counter when Roglic went. Richie Porte even took the lead in that department. Froome and the Sky train in the past would make mincemeat of this lot.
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Yeah Bennett was on fire and dropped himself Dumous was definitely will he won't he. Would you have put your house on that elbow not going at 4 km. In fact I think it did and he had second thoughts.blazing_saddles said:
Unknown capabilities?specialgueststar said:That's why I liked it . Roglic playing a poker hand surrounded by domestiques of unknown capabilities on the day. Then WvA does an unbelievable turn - but still more believe able than Kireyenka.This wasn't stem boy puffing on his inhalers and riding away. This was racing at its best
You mean you missed the clue of having a recent Grand Tour winner take over from the runner up in Lombardia, so Roglic's best mountain support could keep his feet up?
Methinks you have been blinded by your dislike of the other lot and are seeing just what you want to see.
Don't forget I said. On the day
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The only hair to split between Sky and JY is whether or not you prefer your red white and blue arranged in a cross or horizontal stripes...
Funnily enough all my Dutch friends who used to think Sky were boring boring boring all think mountain trains are suddenly amazingly exciting.
(I am struggling to resist pointing this out, it's fair enough really)We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
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It must be massive for Dutch cycling to have a team with a dutch domestique win the tour. I bet they're just as excited in Germany, USA, New Zealand, Belgium and wherever the other fella is from."Unfortunately these days a lot of people don’t understand the real quality of a bike" Ernesto Colnago0
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It's up to the other teams to disrupt . A pact with Bora may be a good idea"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0
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Instead of complaing about it we and other teams need to think what to do about it. Froomes first tour victory should never have happened ."If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0
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It's the usual isn't it? Throw multiple threats at the problem at the beginning of the stage, burn off Jumbo early and make Roglic earn it himself.mididoctors said:Instead of control plain Ng about it we and other teams need to think what to do about it. Froomes first tour victory should never have happened .
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Worked against sky only for movistar to blow it .rick_chasey said:
It's the usual isn't it? Throw multiple threats at the problem at the beginning of the stage, burn off Jumbo early and make Roglic earn it himself.mididoctors said:Instead of control plain Ng about it we and other teams need to think what to do about it. Froomes first tour victory should never have happened .
"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
Pog is the leverage there. But I don't know how you use it without just putting him in yellow.mididoctors said:
Worked against sky only for movistar to blow it .rick_chasey said:
It's the usual isn't it? Throw multiple threats at the problem at the beginning of the stage, burn off Jumbo early and make Roglic earn it himself.mididoctors said:Instead of control plain Ng about it we and other teams need to think what to do about it. Froomes first tour victory should never have happened .
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Bora need to put Bennett in the broom wagon, so they will be very interested in drilling it on the queen-stage for someone, or a select group, to go long.mididoctors said:It's up to the other teams to disrupt . A pact with Bora may be a good idea
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I'm surprised Ineos didn't take moscon to disrupt JV.0
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What a bizarre comment.specialgueststar said:That's why I liked it . Roglic playing a poker hand surrounded by domestiques of unknown capabilities on the day. Then WvA does an unbelievable turn - but still more believe able than Kireyenka.This wasn't stem boy puffing on his inhalers and riding away. This was racing at its best
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Oh sorry. Did I not write all the words YOU think. I can't apologize enough 😅😂50x11 said:
What a bizarre comment.specialgueststar said:That's why I liked it . Roglic playing a poker hand surrounded by domestiques of unknown capabilities on the day. Then WvA does an unbelievable turn - but still more believe able than Kireyenka.This wasn't stem boy puffing on his inhalers and riding away. This was racing at its best
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Yup, that's about the size of it.ddraver said:The only hair to split between Sky and JY is whether or not you prefer your red white and blue arranged in a cross or horizontal stripes...
Funnily enough all my Dutch friends who used to think Sky were boring boring boring all think mountain trains are suddenly amazingly exciting.
(I am struggling to resist pointing this out, it's fair enough really)
Two things that never seem to change in cycling.
Nationalistic hypocrisy and the French always being able to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
I'm not sure they've had the jaws of victory for while.blazing_saddles said:
Yup, that's about the size of it.ddraver said:The only hair to split between Sky and JY is whether or not you prefer your red white and blue arranged in a cross or horizontal stripes...
Funnily enough all my Dutch friends who used to think Sky were boring boring boring all think mountain trains are suddenly amazingly exciting.
(I am struggling to resist pointing this out, it's fair enough really)
Two things that never seem to change in cycling.
Nationalistic hypocrisy and the French always being able to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.0 -
Dunno, it sometimes seems like victory has occasionally given Pinot a brief sniff before realising that his hopes have been dead for that long that even vultures would think twice...darkhairedlord said:
I'm not sure they've had the jaws of victory for while.blazing_saddles said:
Yup, that's about the size of it.ddraver said:The only hair to split between Sky and JY is whether or not you prefer your red white and blue arranged in a cross or horizontal stripes...
Funnily enough all my Dutch friends who used to think Sky were boring boring boring all think mountain trains are suddenly amazingly exciting.
(I am struggling to resist pointing this out, it's fair enough really)
Two things that never seem to change in cycling.
Nationalistic hypocrisy and the French always being able to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.0 -
None worse for that than the Brits.blazing_saddles said:
Yup, that's about the size of it.ddraver said:The only hair to split between Sky and JY is whether or not you prefer your red white and blue arranged in a cross or horizontal stripes...
Funnily enough all my Dutch friends who used to think Sky were boring boring boring all think mountain trains are suddenly amazingly exciting.
(I am struggling to resist pointing this out, it's fair enough really)
Two things that never seem to change in cycling.
Nationalistic hypocrisy and the French always being able to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
As it happens, the early collapse of the French challenge has made it a much duller race in my view. Sure, they'd have inevitably failed but Bardet, Martin and Pinot would almost certainly have attacked JV before now if misfortune hadn't respectively befallen them.
The complete collapse of Bernal hasn't helped either. The Bernal of 2019 would have been attacking by now.
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