TDF 2020 - Stage 13: Châtel-Guyon - Pas de Peyrol (Le Puy Mary) 191.5km *Spoilers*

bobmcstuff

Just watched the highlights. So happy to see Martinez win that. When I saw him tow Kamna up to Schachmann I thought Kamna would have it. Great ride from EF.

Kauto5

Watching the highlights you notice things you missed first time. Roglic's cadence was incredible.

hypster

Bernal is not a leader to inspire a team which is why Thomas jumped ship for the Giro. It was obvious by his demeanour at the Dauphine that he was still pissed off playing No 2. No one is going to put themselves on the line for Bernal here especially now that he has shown he doesn't have what it takes.

andyp

To the surprise of no-one who saw the post crash footage, Bardet has been diagnosed with concussion and won't start tomorrow.

blazing_saddles

Harry182 said:

blazing_saddles said:

gsk82 said:

zest28 said:

roscoe said:

phreak said:

roscoe said:

The Ineos domestiques just don’t look up to it this year. Shame Sivakov crashed early on.

They weren't really much good last year either. Quite often it was just Thomas and Bernal left on the final climb. On the PCS stats, they were 4th best team last year, and are 8th best this year, with Bernal the best placed individual in a frankly awful 42nd place. Just not there, which for the money they spend is not good. Something has gone wrong with the team.

I wonder how much they’re missing Rod Ellingworth and Nico Portal?

Could it be the team has lost its identity, less English speaking riders? Not as strong a core.

It is simply a Chris Froome in his peak not being there. You also saw last year how poor Ineos looked without Froome present.

You can spend all the money in the world, but if your leader simply does not have the legs as strong as the other GC's, it is going to be hard.

This.

I said it last year that Chris Froome is the leader of this team. Bernal and Thomas just aren't Chris Froome. They've always been a different team with him in it. Even when he wasn't on form he got a bit extra from them.

I look forward to Israel SN winning the Tour next year, in that case.

I'm looking forward to seeing what Mike Woods can do either as a super-domestique or team leader.

He didn't look super anything today.

https://twitter.com/inrng/status/1304515415595507717

salsiccia1

andyp said:

To the surprise of no-one who saw the post crash footage, Bardet has been diagnosed with concussion and won't start tomorrow.

I didn't see the crash and aftermath myself, but on twitter some have said he could hardly stand afterwards. If that's true, how was he allowed to continue?

DeVlaeminck

andyp said:

To the surprise of no-one who saw the post crash footage, Bardet has been diagnosed with concussion and won't start tomorrow.

I'm a bit surprised, not the concussion bit but that they've actually diagnosed and withdrawn him rather than trying to blag it but well done to whoever did the right thing.

Re Ineos tactics today I thought they were ok. Ultimately they have to test Roglic and not let Jumbo dictate the pace. They know Roglic is explosive so making it hard from further out is a classic approach. I think Jumbo are stronger than they are getting credit for and when the strongest rider has a strong team it's extremely hard to beat them.

hillrunner

hillrunner said:

50x11 said:

hillrunner said:

Hopefully Pogacar continues his trend of posting his power data to Strava. Would be nice to get a glimpse into how hard Primoz was pushing at the end / if Pogacar has lost power vs his monster 6.8 w/kg threshold climb earlier in the tour

He's removed the power data from Strava.

Or maybe he just didn’t want to share it for the sleepy flat stages. We’ll see when he posts the ride (i just chocked and didn’t see it)

No power data for his ride but I’m calcing that Pocagar avg about 550 watts / 8.3 w / kg for the final piece of Puy Mary. 10.1 mph up a 15% gradient in 4 min 29 sec. this is at 5000 ft altitude and the end of a brutal ride and first part of the climb

pblakeney

hillrunner said:

hillrunner said:

50x11 said:

hillrunner said:

Hopefully Pogacar continues his trend of posting his power data to Strava. Would be nice to get a glimpse into how hard Primoz was pushing at the end / if Pogacar has lost power vs his monster 6.8 w/kg threshold climb earlier in the tour

He's removed the power data from Strava.

Or maybe he just didn’t want to share it for the sleepy flat stages. We’ll see when he posts the ride (i just chocked and didn’t see it)

No power data for his ride but I’m calcing that Pocagar avg about 550 watts / 8.3 w / kg for the final piece of Puy Mary. 10.1 mph up a 15% gradient in 4 min 29 sec. this is at 5000 ft altitude and the end of a brutal ride and first part of the climb

Grasping at the idea of someone challenging Roglic?
I think the deal has already been done.
"We will work together, but you finish second".
It is a time honoured tradition.

Pross

pblakeney said:

hillrunner said:

hillrunner said:

50x11 said:

hillrunner said:

Hopefully Pogacar continues his trend of posting his power data to Strava. Would be nice to get a glimpse into how hard Primoz was pushing at the end / if Pogacar has lost power vs his monster 6.8 w/kg threshold climb earlier in the tour

He's removed the power data from Strava.

Or maybe he just didn’t want to share it for the sleepy flat stages. We’ll see when he posts the ride (i just chocked and didn’t see it)

No power data for his ride but I’m calcing that Pocagar avg about 550 watts / 8.3 w / kg for the final piece of Puy Mary. 10.1 mph up a 15% gradient in 4 min 29 sec. this is at 5000 ft altitude and the end of a brutal ride and first part of the climb

Grasping at the idea of someone challenging Roglic?
I think the deal has already been done.
"We will work together, but you finish second".
It is a time honoured tradition.

Grasping at the suggestion of doping more like. The Tour always brings them out.

RichN95.

Someone seriously should have realised Bardet had concussion when he tried to collect his musette

andyrac

andyp said:

To the surprise of no-one who saw the post crash footage, Bardet has been diagnosed with concussion and won't start tomorrow.

To be honest, he shouldn't have got back on the bike. What were the team and/or doctors thinking?
Whatever concussion protocol is in place needs looking at.

DeVlaeminck

With hindsight the video looks bad - as a TV viewer I admit I didn't immediately think he's groggy maybe I wasn't watching that closely but I was thinking more he looked physically injured. I'm surprised it didn't occur to people standing right there though who could maybe see where the impact was, could talk to him, helped him back up etc.

The difficulty is how long does it take a Dr to arrive and do a concussion test . You can't insist everyone waits for that so you rely on the riders to self regulate. These are young blokes who take risks for a living. If your leader says **** it I'm OK let's go then you probably get him on and ride.

I'm in total agreement that Bardet shouldn't have carried on and it's worth seeing if more can be done - it's just I'm not sure much more can be other than educate the riders.

RichN95.

andyrac said:

andyp said:

To the surprise of no-one who saw the post crash footage, Bardet has been diagnosed with concussion and won't start tomorrow.

To be honest, he shouldn't have got back on the bike. What were the team and/or doctors thinking?
Whatever concussion protocol is in place needs looking at.

He was back on the bike fairly quickly and only finished 2.5 minutes down on the Slovenians. It can't have been too obvious (I know there was the stumble when he first stood up). It's hard to know what to do. Do you let them do the protocols and then tow them back to the peloton if OK? What if it's too late in a crucial stage? There's no easy solution.

ddraver

See also Anthony Perez

Perez, 29, suffered two fractured ribs, a collapsed lung, extensive bruising and needed stitches in his knee and back after the fall.

And I can't find the bloomin' picture of his team director lifting him up with his arms around his chest!!

RichN95.

The other day we were wondering who this year's Zubeldia is. Rigoberto Uran is fourth. I've not really noticed him yet.

pblakeney

RichN95. said:

The other day we were wondering who this year's Zubeldia is. Rigoberto Uran is fourth. I've not really noticed him yet.

Too busy trying to spot Bernal?
(Or Yates)

rick_chasey

pblakeney said:

RichN95. said:

The other day we were wondering who this year's Zubeldia is. Rigoberto Uran is fourth. I've not really noticed him yet.

Too busy trying to spot Bernal?
(Or Yates)

Lol. I was surprised to see Mas in at 10. Didn’t even know he was riding.

DeadCalm

Given how seriously EF take the Team competition, I wonder whether their tactic of getting multiple riders into the break yesterday was done with that in mind as much as a stage victory. Either way, it paid off. They' won the stage and regained the lead in the Team competition .

pblakeney

DeadCalm said:

Given how seriously EF take the Team competition, I wonder whether their tactic of getting multiple riders into the break yesterday was done with that in mind as much as a stage victory. Either way, it paid off. They' won the stage and regained the lead in the Team competition .

Well, as I, and 2 others, picked Martinez for the PTP win we could legitimately claim that the stage win was the objective. Also gains points for the win.

phreak

roscoe said:

zest28 said:

Harry182 said:

I'm totally guessing but I reckon as leadership styles go, Froome's is absolutely ruthless, G's is to be the nice guy and Bernal is more reliant on road captain and DS. I also reckon the speculative Froome style would be best at getting results.

The quality of the team in the past was also much better. For example, in the past you had as part of Team Sky

- Wiggins (FTP of 460W in TT position, so 470W+ FTP in normal position) as the leader.
- Chris Froome (would later end up dominating himself) as support
- Richie Porte as support

Compare that to the 2020 team. Heck, the same Richie Porte who was support for Wiggins looks to be giving Bernal a hard time as well.

Add Stannard, Knees, Rodgers, Kiriyenka etc.

Not sure that's true. Carapaz is a GT winner who has beaten Roglic to win that GT (only last year!). You would say his pedigree is stronger than Porte. Sivakov is a top 10 GT rider and is comparable to Rogers in that sense, as is Amador. Kwia is a former World Champion and classics winner, who is almost certainly better than EBH, who is perhaps his nearest comparison.

The problem is that none of them are even close to their best.

blazing_saddles

So I suppose Bardet reverts to his original season's goal of the Giro.

DeadCalm

blazing_saddles said:

So I suppose Bardet reverts to his original season's goal of the Giro.

I was just wondering about that. I hope so.

andyp

phreak said:

Kwia is a former World Champion and classics winner, who is almost certainly better than EBH, who is perhaps his nearest comparison.

The problem is that none of them are even close to their best.

That's harsh on Kwiatkowski, he's been Ineos' best rider in the first two weeks of the race, across a variety of terrains.

Pross

RichN95. said:

The other day we were wondering who this year's Zubeldia is. Rigoberto Uran is fourth. I've not really noticed him yet.

Uran has been quite visible throughout I thought (it's hard to be Zubeldia in fluorescent pink).

As Rick said, Mas is doing the ghost role well. Maybe my imagined memory of him doing it last year was actuay a premonition!

gweeds

At some point our sport is going to start taking concussion seriously. No way should Bardet have been back on a bike. Masses of sports would have needed a compulsory HIA, and they're not asking people to then hit an 80kph descent soon after.

roscoe

phreak said:

roscoe said:

zest28 said:

Harry182 said:

I'm totally guessing but I reckon as leadership styles go, Froome's is absolutely ruthless, G's is to be the nice guy and Bernal is more reliant on road captain and DS. I also reckon the speculative Froome style would be best at getting results.

The quality of the team in the past was also much better. For example, in the past you had as part of Team Sky

- Wiggins (FTP of 460W in TT position, so 470W+ FTP in normal position) as the leader.
- Chris Froome (would later end up dominating himself) as support
- Richie Porte as support

Compare that to the 2020 team. Heck, the same Richie Porte who was support for Wiggins looks to be giving Bernal a hard time as well.

Add Stannard, Knees, Rodgers, Kiriyenka etc.

Not sure that's true. Carapaz is a GT winner who has beaten Roglic to win that GT (only last year!). You would say his pedigree is stronger than Porte. Sivakov is a top 10 GT rider and is comparable to Rogers in that sense, as is Amador. Kwia is a former World Champion and classics winner, who is almost certainly better than EBH, who is perhaps his nearest comparison.

The problem is that none of them are even close to their best.

Kwiato is the only one showing anything like his best. Sivakov is injures, fair enough and Carapaz was training for a tilt at the Giro.

The point is The Ineos team as a whole are not strong enough this year. They also looked fairly weak last year. Why? They dominated in the past. Are we seeing a rebuild/transition period?

TheBigBean

gweeds said:

At some point our sport is going to start taking concussion seriously. No way should Bardet have been back on a bike. Masses of sports would have needed a compulsory HIA, and they're not asking people to then hit an 80kph descent soon after.

They could give them an assessment whilst holding on to the medical car, but the problem is that I'm not convinced that assessment is worth much.

For example, last summer Steve Smith passed cricket's new concussion protocol and went out to bat. Anyone watching in the crowd could have told you he was still concussed.

Pross

roscoe said:

phreak said:

roscoe said:

zest28 said:

Harry182 said:

I'm totally guessing but I reckon as leadership styles go, Froome's is absolutely ruthless, G's is to be the nice guy and Bernal is more reliant on road captain and DS. I also reckon the speculative Froome style would be best at getting results.

The quality of the team in the past was also much better. For example, in the past you had as part of Team Sky

- Wiggins (FTP of 460W in TT position, so 470W+ FTP in normal position) as the leader.
- Chris Froome (would later end up dominating himself) as support
- Richie Porte as support

Compare that to the 2020 team. Heck, the same Richie Porte who was support for Wiggins looks to be giving Bernal a hard time as well.

Add Stannard, Knees, Rodgers, Kiriyenka etc.

Not sure that's true. Carapaz is a GT winner who has beaten Roglic to win that GT (only last year!). You would say his pedigree is stronger than Porte. Sivakov is a top 10 GT rider and is comparable to Rogers in that sense, as is Amador. Kwia is a former World Champion and classics winner, who is almost certainly better than EBH, who is perhaps his nearest comparison.

The problem is that none of them are even close to their best.

Kwiato is the only one showing anything like his best. Sivakov is injures, fair enough and Carapaz was training for a tilt at the Giro.

The point is The Ineos team as a whole are not strong enough this year. They also looked fairly weak last year. Why? They dominated in the past. Are we seeing a rebuild/transition period?

They seem to have focussed on bringing in young riders. I think I counted 9 of their 30 man squad being 24 or under with most of those being first or second year pros. Add in that many of the super domestiques have moved on in the understandable but misguided belief they can win themselves and that the main riders are probably over their peaks and it's understandable.

It's not a bad thing that they seem focussed on development if they have the patience for it and the lack of racing this year hasn't helped the process.

No_Ta_Doctor

We seem to keep talking about the weakness of Ineos, while at the same time talking up Pogacar, who has lost both Formolo and Aru - two climbers - and only has de la Cruz to offer any support when the road starts to rise (and precious little help there).

Now I'm certain that Pogacar's weak team would be a huge issue for him if he had to defend yellow, but in general it seems like we believe he can get a result if he's got the legs for it. It seems strange to suggest that Bernal's issue is that Ineos is weak, rather than that Roglic and Pogacar just have better legs.