TDF 2020 - Stage 13: Châtel-Guyon - Pas de Peyrol (Le Puy Mary) 191.5km *Spoilers*

zest28

rick_chasey said:

Super fun seeing a Tour winner hunched over his bars, wringing it out, zigzagging on an MTF, trying to stay in contention.

Feels like it's been a while since we've seen that.

Yeah, seems like I will loose this year bet as I did bet on Bernal. (However I was betting more on Ineos doing their magic)

blazing_saddles

jimmyjams said:

blazing_saddles said:

Madouas giving us a prime example as to why the french can't win a modern Tour.
A big wasted effort in the middle of nowhere, ending in the inevitable result.

In the end, a reasonable result for Madouas (4th); I picked the wrong FDJ for PTP but think him and Gaudu have potential, well next year (or perhaps thereafter or some day!)

Doesn't that kind of prove the point I was making, though?

gsk82

zest28 said:

roscoe said:

phreak said:

roscoe said:

The Ineos domestiques just don’t look up to it this year. Shame Sivakov crashed early on.

They weren't really much good last year either. Quite often it was just Thomas and Bernal left on the final climb. On the PCS stats, they were 4th best team last year, and are 8th best this year, with Bernal the best placed individual in a frankly awful 42nd place. Just not there, which for the money they spend is not good. Something has gone wrong with the team.

I wonder how much they’re missing Rod Ellingworth and Nico Portal?

Could it be the team has lost its identity, less English speaking riders? Not as strong a core.

It is simply a Chris Froome in his peak not being there. You also saw last year how poor Ineos looked without Froome present.

You can spend all the money in the world, but if your leader simply does not have the legs as strong as the other GC's, it is going to be hard.

This.

I said it last year that Chris Froome is the leader of this team. Bernal and Thomas just aren't Chris Froome. They've always been a different team with him in it. Even when he wasn't on form he got a bit extra from them.

Pross

Superb by Martinez, never panicked and time his final effort to perfection.

Bernal is surprisingly poor on those steeper climbs for a rider built like a classic climber, he seemed to be the only one trying to climb in the saddle in the final stage.

That's the toughest finish climb I can recall at the Tour, far more Vuelta like and the final km took forever. Schachmann only got dropped in about the last 600m and lost nearly a minute.

salsiccia1

This is still wide open. The final climb today didn't suit Bernal, yet Roglic and Pogacar, whilst looking really good took 'only' 38 seconds off him. Hell, even Landa in 8th is only 1'55" back. The long climbs from Sunday onwards will suit Bernal and the other contenders more.

Roglic *is* looking favourite at the moment, but he's got a long week ahead to maintain his form and Jumbo have been doing a lot of work for not much gain, with a huge amount still to do.

Lanterne_Rogue

gsk82 said:

I said it last year that Chris Froome is the leader of this team. Bernal and Thomas just aren't Chris Froome. They've always been a different team with him in it. Even when he wasn't on form he got a bit extra from them.

I don't think Froome got anything more out of the team, I just think they're always going to look better when their leader can burst out of the pack and finish up with a win.

Ineos rode pretty well today, but unfortunately they turned out to be working for Roglic and Pogacar instead of Bernal. If either of those two had been wearing an Ineos jersey we'd be saying how well Ineos had controlled it in the second half of the stage.

The problem for Ineos now is that I don't think Bernal is the right kind of rider to go full on insurrectionist. Froome always offered the risk of the unexpected - 2016's break with Sagan, that Giro stage etc - but Bernal looks very one-dimensional right now and I don't know how Ineos can turn that into a plan B. Plan A is basically providing Roglic with another set of domestiques, so maybe stop doing that at least.

Lanterne_Rogue

I very much hope all this wailing about the death of Ineos looks like hyperbole by the end of the tour, FWIW, otherwise the battle for GC is going to be a bit dull.

Pross

gsk82 said:

zest28 said:

roscoe said:

phreak said:

roscoe said:

The Ineos domestiques just don’t look up to it this year. Shame Sivakov crashed early on.

They weren't really much good last year either. Quite often it was just Thomas and Bernal left on the final climb. On the PCS stats, they were 4th best team last year, and are 8th best this year, with Bernal the best placed individual in a frankly awful 42nd place. Just not there, which for the money they spend is not good. Something has gone wrong with the team.

I wonder how much they’re missing Rod Ellingworth and Nico Portal?

Could it be the team has lost its identity, less English speaking riders? Not as strong a core.

It is simply a Chris Froome in his peak not being there. You also saw last year how poor Ineos looked without Froome present.

You can spend all the money in the world, but if your leader simply does not have the legs as strong as the other GC's, it is going to be hard.

This.

I said it last year that Chris Froome is the leader of this team. Bernal and Thomas just aren't Chris Froome. They've always been a different team with him in it. Even when he wasn't on form he got a bit extra from them.

Thomas seemed to do OK the year he won it. Froome has always had Thomas there pretty much day in, day out on his wins too. The current squad is pretty threadbare, I was looking at what support Thomas might have for the mountains and it is pretty much all promising but inexperienced riders 21 years or younger.

Dropping two riders with 5 Tour wins between them is looking a bad decision though. Thomas' form at TA is suggesting he'd have been more use that Amador or Carapaz (I'll give Sivakov a pass because of the crashes). That said let's see how things go on the longer, steadier Alpine climbs.

phreak

Lanterne_Rogue said:

gsk82 said:

I said it last year that Chris Froome is the leader of this team. Bernal and Thomas just aren't Chris Froome. They've always been a different team with him in it. Even when he wasn't on form he got a bit extra from them.

I don't think Froome got anything more out of the team, I just think they're always going to look better when their leader can burst out of the pack and finish up with a win.

Ineos rode pretty well today, but unfortunately they turned out to be working for Roglic and Pogacar instead of Bernal. If either of those two had been wearing an Ineos jersey we'd be saying how well Ineos had controlled it in the second half of the stage.

The problem for Ineos now is that I don't think Bernal is the right kind of rider to go full on insurrectionist. Froome always offered the risk of the unexpected - 2016's break with Sagan, that Giro stage etc - but Bernal looks very one-dimensional right now and I don't know how Ineos can turn that into a plan B. Plan A is basically providing Roglic with another set of domestiques, so maybe stop doing that at least.

That's being quite kind to Ineos tbh. Just as last year, they've often reached the final mountain with either no one left or a classics rider left. Kwia did a good job, but their actual climbing domestiques were nowhere. Amador has had a horrid Tour, and bar his powder puff squeeze off the front Carapaz was not a rider that had gotten the better of Roglic in a GT (by 2m30s lest we forget!). Even Sivakov might have been expected to do a bit after having 5 minutes to rest up before the GC contenders got to him, but for a man that was challenging the best a month ago, he looks well off the pace still.

brundonbianchi

Well Roglic gapped Bernal nicely. That’s what I was hoping for.

Harry182

I'm totally guessing but I reckon as leadership styles go, Froome's is absolutely ruthless, G's is to be the nice guy and Bernal is more reliant on road captain and DS. I also reckon the speculative Froome style would be best at getting results.

zest28

brundonbianchi said:

Well Roglic gapped Bernal nicely. That’s what I was hoping for.

The scary thing is, Roglic didn't look like he was on his limit, while Bernal was giving his 100% and it still was not enough.

Pross

I was slightly surprised by Ineos choosing today to try taking charge as that type of finish becomes every man for themselves. Maybe that was the thinking, there's no benefit in having team mates left on a 15% climb so presumably the intention was make it hard and hope Bernal had the legs to then attack. The team isn't looking good but neither is Bernal particularly.

salsiccia1

Pross said:

Dropping two riders with 5 Tour wins between them is looking a bad decision though. Thomas' form at TA is suggesting he'd have been more use that Amador or Carapaz (I'll give Sivakov a pass because of the crashes). That said let's see how things go on the longer, steadier Alpine climbs.

But could anyone have really made a case for Thomas going ahead of Sivakov, Amador and Carapaz after the Dauphine? And if he had gone he'd have expected a leadership role and I'm not sure the chemistry is right between him and Bernal to make that work.

Ineos don't look as strong as previous years, that's true, but I don't think they had many options given the lead-up. But everyone said Jumbo would be unstoppable and whilst they have looked good at times they've not been all that, and they look to be burning out Kuss and Bennett quickly.

Harry182

Ya. G's pretty much said it was a mutual decision as he didn't want to go to the Tour in a domestique role.

salsiccia1

Anyway, Pogacar is doing what he's doing without any team to speak of! Perhaps he'll fly up the Colombier on Sunday to make knobs of them all.

zest28

Harry182 said:

I'm totally guessing but I reckon as leadership styles go, Froome's is absolutely ruthless, G's is to be the nice guy and Bernal is more reliant on road captain and DS. I also reckon the speculative Froome style would be best at getting results.

The quality of the team in the past was also much better. For example, in the past you had as part of Team Sky

- Wiggins (FTP of 460W in TT position, so 470W+ FTP in normal position) as the leader.
- Chris Froome (would later end up dominating himself) as support
- Richie Porte as support

Compare that to the 2020 team. Heck, the same Richie Porte who was support for Wiggins looks to be giving Bernal a hard time as well.

Pross

salsiccia1 said:

Pross said:

Dropping two riders with 5 Tour wins between them is looking a bad decision though. Thomas' form at TA is suggesting he'd have been more use that Amador or Carapaz (I'll give Sivakov a pass because of the crashes). That said let's see how things go on the longer, steadier Alpine climbs.

But could anyone have really made a case for Thomas going ahead of Sivakov, Amador and Carapaz after the Dauphine? And if he had gone he'd have expected a leadership role and I'm not sure the chemistry is right between him and Bernal to make that work.

Ineos don't look as strong as previous years, that's true, but I don't think they had many options given the lead-up. But everyone said Jumbo would be unstoppable and whilst they have looked good at times they've not been all that, and they look to be burning out Kuss and Bennett quickly.

I agree regarding Jumbo. Other than Roglic and WVA they've looked quite ordinary. It will be interesting to see what happens if Roglic does get put under pressure. The final week could be interesting if the likes of Bernal do hit form.

50x11

hillrunner said:

Hopefully Pogacar continues his trend of posting his power data to Strava. Would be nice to get a glimpse into how hard Primoz was pushing at the end / if Pogacar has lost power vs his monster 6.8 w/kg threshold climb earlier in the tour

He's removed the power data from Strava.

blazing_saddles

gsk82 said:

zest28 said:

roscoe said:

phreak said:

roscoe said:

The Ineos domestiques just don’t look up to it this year. Shame Sivakov crashed early on.

They weren't really much good last year either. Quite often it was just Thomas and Bernal left on the final climb. On the PCS stats, they were 4th best team last year, and are 8th best this year, with Bernal the best placed individual in a frankly awful 42nd place. Just not there, which for the money they spend is not good. Something has gone wrong with the team.

I wonder how much they’re missing Rod Ellingworth and Nico Portal?

Could it be the team has lost its identity, less English speaking riders? Not as strong a core.

It is simply a Chris Froome in his peak not being there. You also saw last year how poor Ineos looked without Froome present.

You can spend all the money in the world, but if your leader simply does not have the legs as strong as the other GC's, it is going to be hard.

This.

I said it last year that Chris Froome is the leader of this team. Bernal and Thomas just aren't Chris Froome. They've always been a different team with him in it. Even when he wasn't on form he got a bit extra from them.

I look forward to Israel SN winning the Tour next year, in that case.

Harry182

zest28 said:

Harry182 said:

I'm totally guessing but I reckon as leadership styles go, Froome's is absolutely ruthless, G's is to be the nice guy and Bernal is more reliant on road captain and DS. I also reckon the speculative Froome style would be best at getting results.

The quality of the team in the past was also much better. For example, in the past you had as part of Team Sky

- Wiggins (FTP of 460W in TT position, so 470W+ FTP in normal position) as the leader.
- Chris Froome (would later end up dominating himself) as support
- Richie Porte as support

Compare that to the 2020 team. Heck, the same Richie Porte who was support for Wiggins looks to be giving Bernal a hard time as well.

Too true. Too true.

roscoe

zest28 said:

Harry182 said:

I'm totally guessing but I reckon as leadership styles go, Froome's is absolutely ruthless, G's is to be the nice guy and Bernal is more reliant on road captain and DS. I also reckon the speculative Froome style would be best at getting results.

The quality of the team in the past was also much better. For example, in the past you had as part of Team Sky

- Wiggins (FTP of 460W in TT position, so 470W+ FTP in normal position) as the leader.
- Chris Froome (would later end up dominating himself) as support
- Richie Porte as support

Compare that to the 2020 team. Heck, the same Richie Porte who was support for Wiggins looks to be giving Bernal a hard time as well.

Add Stannard, Knees, Rodgers, Kiriyenka etc.

Harry182

blazing_saddles said:

gsk82 said:

zest28 said:

roscoe said:

phreak said:

roscoe said:

The Ineos domestiques just don’t look up to it this year. Shame Sivakov crashed early on.

They weren't really much good last year either. Quite often it was just Thomas and Bernal left on the final climb. On the PCS stats, they were 4th best team last year, and are 8th best this year, with Bernal the best placed individual in a frankly awful 42nd place. Just not there, which for the money they spend is not good. Something has gone wrong with the team.

I wonder how much they’re missing Rod Ellingworth and Nico Portal?

Could it be the team has lost its identity, less English speaking riders? Not as strong a core.

It is simply a Chris Froome in his peak not being there. You also saw last year how poor Ineos looked without Froome present.

You can spend all the money in the world, but if your leader simply does not have the legs as strong as the other GC's, it is going to be hard.

This.

I said it last year that Chris Froome is the leader of this team. Bernal and Thomas just aren't Chris Froome. They've always been a different team with him in it. Even when he wasn't on form he got a bit extra from them.

I look forward to Israel SN winning the Tour next year, in that case.

I'm looking forward to seeing what Mike Woods can do either as a super-domestique or team leader.

hillrunner

50x11 said:

hillrunner said:

Hopefully Pogacar continues his trend of posting his power data to Strava. Would be nice to get a glimpse into how hard Primoz was pushing at the end / if Pogacar has lost power vs his monster 6.8 w/kg threshold climb earlier in the tour

He's removed the power data from Strava.

Or maybe he just didn’t want to share it for the sleepy flat stages. We’ll see when he posts the ride (i just chocked and didn’t see it)

salsiccia1

Pross said:

salsiccia1 said:

Pross said:

Dropping two riders with 5 Tour wins between them is looking a bad decision though. Thomas' form at TA is suggesting he'd have been more use that Amador or Carapaz (I'll give Sivakov a pass because of the crashes). That said let's see how things go on the longer, steadier Alpine climbs.

But could anyone have really made a case for Thomas going ahead of Sivakov, Amador and Carapaz after the Dauphine? And if he had gone he'd have expected a leadership role and I'm not sure the chemistry is right between him and Bernal to make that work.

Ineos don't look as strong as previous years, that's true, but I don't think they had many options given the lead-up. But everyone said Jumbo would be unstoppable and whilst they have looked good at times they've not been all that, and they look to be burning out Kuss and Bennett quickly.

I agree regarding Jumbo. Other than Roglic and WVA they've looked quite ordinary. It will be interesting to see what happens if Roglic does get put under pressure. The final week could be interesting if the likes of Bernal do hit form.

It's also worth bearing in mind that today is the first time Roglic has actually taken time off Bernal, the 21 seconds before today were all from time bonuses.

Kauto5

Have to agree (and hope for the sake of the GC race) that the likes of Bernal and Quintana will show some more on the longer, more relentless climbs to come but I can't help but imagine there aren't enough WM shaped profiles to come for Bernal.

Credit to Roglic and Pogacar though, so far they look head and shoulders above the rest when it matters.

brundonbianchi

zest28 said:

brundonbianchi said:

Well Roglic gapped Bernal nicely. That’s what I was hoping for.

The scary thing is, Roglic didn't look like he was on his limit, while Bernal was giving his 100% and it still was not enough.

Quite, thanks in no small part to the XR4.

Kauto5

brundonbianchi said:

zest28 said:

brundonbianchi said:

Well Roglic gapped Bernal nicely. That’s what I was hoping for.

The scary thing is, Roglic didn't look like he was on his limit, while Bernal was giving his 100% and it still was not enough.

Quite, thanks in no small part to the XR4.

He drives a Sierra?

pblakeney

I think that everyone's cards were on the table today and we now know how GC is going to play out, accidents apart.

bobmcstuff

brundonbianchi said:

zest28 said:

brundonbianchi said:

Well Roglic gapped Bernal nicely. That’s what I was hoping for.

The scary thing is, Roglic didn't look like he was on his limit, while Bernal was giving his 100% and it still was not enough.

Quite, thanks in no small part to the XR4.

Hahahahahahaha

You know that bike is heavy and has the one of the worst aero characteristics of all the supposedly aero bikes

Troll.